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278: Talking With Pediatric Neuropsychologists About ADHD

An ADHD diagnosis can be a welcome answer for parents who are struggling to understand their child’s behavior. But a diagnosis doesn’t come with a user’s manual, and kids especially can have a hard time understanding what all the clinical terms mean for them and their needs. This time I’m in conversation with pediatric neuropsychologists Dr. Katia Fredriksen and Dr. Yael E. Rothman. They’ve written Different Thinkers: ADHD a kid-friendly guide that aims to help little ones understand and celebrate their neurodiversity.

In this episode, you’ll learn:

  • Why sleep issues, anxiety, and other sensitivities are often mistaken for signs of ADHD.
  • How a collaborative approach involving parents, teachers, and medical professionals can help you understand and honor kids no matter their neurodiversity.
  • That helping a highly sensitive child cope with an overstimulated world works best when you take it step by step.

And much more! 

As always, thanks for listening. Head over to Facebook, where you can join my free group Mastermind Parenting Community. We post tips and tools and do pop-up Live conversations where I do extra teaching and coaching to support you in helping your strong-willed children so that they can FEEL better and DO better. If you enjoyed this episode and think that others could benefit from listening, please share it!

 

About Randi Rubenstein

Randi Rubenstein helps parents with a strong-willed kiddo become a happier family and enjoy the simple things again like bike rides and beach vacays.

She’s the founder of Mastermind Parenting, host of the Mastermind Parenting podcast, and author of The Parent Gap. Randi works with parents across the U.S.

At Mastermind Parenting, we believe every human deserves to have a family that gets along.

Randi’s Web and Social Links

About Our Guests

Katia Fredriksen, Ph.D. and Yael E. Rothman, Ph.D. are pediatric neuropsychologists and the authors of Different Thinkers: ADHD, a child-friendly guide that strips away the stigmas, myths, and misconceptions associated with attention deficit hyperactivity disorder. https://www.boystownpress.org/different-thinkers-adhd-softcover/

Links & Resources

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Transcription

[00:00:00] Yael Rothman: when we write our reports, we come up with a lot of recommendations for the family and for the school, but we always say this is a plan for a while. This is not a hundred things you need to go home and do tonight. Let’s take one at a time and let other things go while we’re focusing on these steps. 

[00:00:19] So if you’re focusing on sleep, maybe we’re not worried about nutrition at this point in time, or we’re not worried about brushing your teeth tonight, or whatever it might be.

[00:00:29] Katia Fredriksen: Well, yeah, you have to pick your battles right? 

[00:00:30] Yael Rothman: Let, let a few things go. 

[00:00:32] Randi Rubenstein: Well, the way to, any kind of habit change or changing a pattern, it’s, I like to say it’s super unexciting, baby step by baby step. 

[00:00:41] My name is Randi Rubenstein, and welcome to the Mastermind Parenting Podcast. At Mastermind Parenting, we’re on a mission to support strong-willed kids and the families that love them. 

[00:00:53] Hello, hello, hello. I have a topic that I know is on many of your radars this week, ADHD. Today, you’re going to hear a conversation with me and the authors of a new book, Different Thinkers, ADHD. Dr. Katia Fredriksen, Ph. D. and Dr. Yael Rothman, Ph. D. and they’re pediatric neuropsychologists, and they, this is a children’s book that they wrote. It’s a resource. We talk about it.

[00:01:29] They also talk about what is ADHD. Like, I know we, most of us know what it is, but I kind of wanted to have, well, I had pediatric neuropsychologists with me. I wanted to hear how they defined ADHD. So what it is, um, the different ways that kids can get diagnosed with it, why it’s important for kids to learn about their own diagnosis, how it’s often being missed in girls, I share a personal story there. How we as parents and caregivers can support and guide a kid through this diagnosis. I asked them, is this considered a difference or a disability? And, you know, really this mindset of how you help your kids understand, like how to even understand it.

[00:02:25] I also asked them a couple of hard questions. I mean, I think I shocked them, there’s one part in there where I use some pretty colorful language, so stay tuned for that one because I’m sure they were like, what the fuck was she saying? Um, but I share a lot of personal stories and, um, and I think it’s a really good conversation. 

[00:02:49] And for those of you who are thinking that your kids might be, uh, might have ADHD, um, they’ve been diagnosed with ADHD. I think you’re really going to enjoy this one. So that’s what I got. Enjoy.

[00:03:04] Well, hello, hello, I guess I should have asked you before we started recording. If you want to be referred to as doctor or if we can be on a first name basis.

[00:03:15] Katia Fredriksen: First names are fine. Yep.

[00:03:17] Randi Rubenstein: Okay. Awesome. Well, listeners, welcome to this week. I have a topic that I know many of you are going to be interested in. ADHD. And today we have two lovely Neuropsychologists, and if you’re watching the video to my, I think it’s to my right, to my right is Yael, and to Yael’s right is Katia, Katia, am I getting that correct?

[00:03:48] Katia Fredriksen: Mm hmm. Perfect.

[00:03:49] Randi Rubenstein: Yael and Katia are neuropsychologists and they wrote a book, and they’re going to talk to us about this book and why they wrote the book and what they do and their area of expertise. And we’re going to learn even more. 

[00:04:04] Many of you already know a lot about ADHD. I don’t think there’s a parent out there that hasn’t in some way been informed on what they think ADHD is. Um, but today we’re talking to some experts who, are really going to educate us on what is ADHD? So that you have a clear working definition before you just assume that your kid has ADHD because a teacher said that they were having some impulse control problems and they’re six.

[00:04:38] So welcome. I’m so glad you guys are here. I’m excited for this conversation.

[00:04:43] Yael Rothman: Thank you so much.

[00:04:44] Randi Rubenstein: Let’s start with the first question. What is ADHD and how is it diagnosed?

[00:04:51] Katia Fredriksen: Well, so, ADHD stands for, as I’m sure most of us know, attention deficit hyperactivity disorder. And within ADHD, there are three subtypes. So if you’ve heard the expression, you know, if you’ve met one person with ADHD, congratulations, you’ve met one person with ADHD. This is true because it looks very different in different people.

[00:05:14] And so you can see a, uh, subtype that is, um, characterized by difficulty focusing and sustaining attention primarily, especially at times when the person is not necessarily particularly stimulated or interested, uh, by what’s going on around them. 

[00:05:32] There is another subtype called hyperactive impulsive subtype, which alludes to the two other traits that we look at in ADHD, which include difficulty inhibiting impulses and difficulty regulating one’s activity level, i. e. sort of fidgeting, sort of difficulty sitting still, that sort of thing. 

[00:05:49] And then there’s a third subtype, which is combined, i.e. all of the above. And the two most common subtypes are the inattentive, which maps onto what we previously may have heard of referred to as ADD, and the combined.

[00:06:02] And in order to make the diagnosis, there are a couple of important points to attend to. One is we need to see a clinically significant degree of impairment. Right, so, uh, everybody has moments of impulsivity, hyperactivity, and inattention, and that is not ADHD. We’re talking about something that is significantly affecting the person’s life in key environments, home, school, the athletics field, the workplace, right?

[00:06:29] Uh, and that segues us into a second important point, which is that you need to see the characteristics across multiple settings. As evaluators, we need to see it in our office and or parents need to see it at home and or at school and or again, the coach on the soccer field, whatever it is.

[00:06:45] The reason that’s important is because if you’re only seeing these issues in a single environment, there may be something related to that environment, the demands, that are, the child is struggling with that may not have something to do with the child him or herself in terms of actually having ADHD, maybe something more to do with the environment. So you really need to see it across multiple environments.

[00:07:04] And there are different professionals you can see in order to obtain an diagnosis. If you’re wondering if that’s an appropriate diagnosis for your child or for yourself as an adult, um, you can go via your medical doctor, your pediatrician or primary care and consult with them.

[00:07:22] And, um, in the case of children, they will, um, you know, interview the parents and then have the parent and teachers fill in standardized questionnaire data, which helps them determine whether the symptoms in question are in fact unusual for a child of that particular age. Um, you can also be seen via other medical professionals, psychiatry, et cetera.

[00:07:43] And then, um, there’s us, we’re neuropsychologists and we do a broader, more comprehensive assessment, which can include, um, assessment to question, you know, determine whether ADHD is an appropriate diagnosis.

[00:07:54] Randi Rubenstein: So, do you typically have people come and see you because like, I think my kid has ADHD and my pediatrician referred me to you? Or is it like you guys are the, big guns? It’s like, if, you know, if this is like a situation where. the pediatrician and maybe the OT or other, and the teachers, other adults that have evaluated the child are kind of scratching their heads, then they’re sending people to you? 

[00:08:28] Yael Rothman: We get referrals from so many different places. Sometimes parents just come to us directly without talking to other different professionals and just know about us, maybe from a friend, a colleague, or something like that. Sometimes we do get referrals from doctors, um, including pediatricians, psychiatrists, other therapists, speech language therapists, um, occupational therapists, or school providers. So it does come from a lot of different places. 

[00:08:56] Both, uh, Katia and I had clinical psychology degrees and then went on to study neuropsychology in our fellowships. So we have backgrounds in both, um, clinical psychology and then the specialization in brain behavior relationships. So people would seek us out if they, again, like what Katia said, want this more comprehensive assessment. 

[00:09:17] To get a diagnosis of ADHD, you could just go to the pediatrician, get these questionnaires done, and that gives you a lot of good information and an idea for treatment. But what if you want to know how it’s impacting learning? Your executive functioning skills, your, um, academic achievement? Then you’d want a bigger assessment. And that’s when you would come to us. 

[00:09:39] Or if you have a differential question, is this ADHD or anxiety? Is this a learning disability or ADHD? Is this giftedness or ADHD? Then you probably want to come and get that more comprehensive assessment as well.

[00:09:54] Randi Rubenstein: That’s so interesting, my son who just turned 26, when he was little, I knew there was something. You know, now I would say when I read 

[00:10:06] The Highly Sensitive Child when he was like 10, I was like, oh, here’s my kid. I’ve been looking 10 years going to many different doctors. I mean, I live five minutes from the Houston Medical Center, so I have access to amazing doctors. 

[00:10:22] And he was diagnosed with ADHD, inattentive ADHD. He did not have inattentive ADHD. He had anxiety. He had some neurodiversity. Um, I would say the high sensitivity description, which I know is not an official diagnosis, explained my kid more than anything.

[00:10:49] And there were several years that he was on medication that he should not have been on. And it was a nightmare.

[00:11:01] Katia Fredriksen: How unfortunate.

[00:11:02] Randi Rubenstein: You know, it was a nightmare. And so I think part of, I guess when I said, I was like, hmm, I’m not a hundred percent sure why I decided to interview the two of you and invite you for a conversation today. And I’m like, but whatever is meant to be will organically come out. And I’m like, this is what it is. 

[00:11:20] And I think this is, um, why I want people like yourselves who have had so much training and really do have an expert skill set, um, in diagnosing kids with what really is going on. I feel like so often this, you know, Oh, they have inattentive ADHD. And then they were like, Oh, it’s inattentive ADHD and a side of anxiety. 

[00:11:48] Well, no, really it was a person who, smells are smellier, noises are louder, um, less is more, stimulation overload happens. He would come home from school, he would be fine at school and then he would come home from school and he would just freaking collapse and he was in the shittiest mood ever and I was like, what is going on?

[00:12:09] And when we would give him the ADHD. And then it turned into ADHD meds, and then it was a cocktail. And I remember we would have to like, try the new medicine out on the weekend. And I mean, he was in like third grade and everything in my mom body was like, no, like I didn’t, and he was tiny and, you know, an eat to live type kid, so there wasn’t like a lot of meat on his bones and, and they would say, well try the medicine on the weekend. 

[00:12:41] And I mean, this was a child psychiatrist that had given us this diagnosis. Their office had assessed him and, um, give it to him on the weekend so you can see how it goes. 

[00:12:51] Everything, like literally I can remember the feeling in my body, which was just like, I hate this. It would make me feel sick inside to put this medicine in him. And, and when I remember one time he tried this new medicine and I was like, where, like an hour later I was like, where’s Alec? I can’t find him. I found him in my dining room hiding under the chair, like foaming at the mouth. And

[00:13:17] Katia Fredriksen: Wow.

[00:13:18] Randi Rubenstein: And it was, he was having such a reaction. 

[00:13:22] So, ultimately when he got older and he had a really good teacher, who worked with how his brain is wired and understood that he was the kind of kid that like needed to be at the front of the class. And, and she taught him a lot of structures and different, and really worked with him, really cared about him. And he went off the stimulants. Eventually. 

[00:13:44] What we realized as he got a little bit older and he could kind of express himself was he was anxious. And so like the Zoloft we ended up the Zoloft ended up being a godsend for him. Like that really was the thing that he needed. So all those years of the stimulants, you know, my instinct was like, no, no, no, but here’s all these professionals, these doctors who know better than me. And I was young, he was my first and I, I, I didn’t, I couldn’t trust that instinct yet. Um, and so I guess I don’t know what, what are y’all’s thoughts? 

[00:14:19] Yael Rothman: That’s so complicated and hard. And I, we, we definitely see children being misdiagnosed. Often, often the other way around comes to us a lot where kids are called anxious when really they might have some inattentive symptoms. 

[00:14:38] This especially happens with females. Um, because, uh, that is the more common presentation is the inattentive subtype, which is really subtle and in the early years can kind of go undercover. Um, so that happens where maybe they’re diagnosed with anxiety and then we find out later about that. But it’s not uncommon when you don’t get all of the data present to you that some, unfortunately, some things can go missed. 

[00:15:07] Katia Fredriksen: So much to parse apart. Right?

[00:15:09] Yael Rothman: Oh, yeah. And what’s also complicated is that medicine like stimulants can be life changing for some kids. I, we hear stories all the time. Wow. Like the child is just so much more comfortable and present. But when it doesn’t work, like you had the situation, that sounds terrible. And I, I think that’s where you really need to take that mother instinct and realize

[00:15:37] Katia Fredriksen: Right. 

[00:15:37] Yael Rothman: what’s going on there.

[00:15:39] Katia Fredriksen: It’s always important to listen to those internal instincts. Right. You know, and maybe they, they don’t entirely govern your behavior all the time. Right. Because, I mean, we’re all wrong at times, but you have to listen to them. Right. As you sort of saw over time that you had this sort of sense that things weren’t being done correctly for your son. Um, and yeah, I mean, to what we were just talking about, it’s so hard to parse things apart sometimes, and that was sort of helps to have a really thorough sort of range of data to look through. 

[00:16:06] So, for example, if you, if, uh, you know, your child comes in for a neuropsych assessment, we are going to talk really carefully to you and get the history, and get standardized questionnaire data. We are going to talk to teachers and get data from them. We’re going to talk to the OT, to the therapist, to the psychiatrist. We’re going to talk to everybody who we can, who sees the child in different settings and environments and with different demands. And then, you know, we’re going to do our whole own set of observations and body of testing.

[00:16:31] And it helps just the, the more angles you see the child from, the more it helps you parse through those things because it can be really hard to distinguish. Um, you know, because inattention and anxiety can really overlap. Right? So someone who’s inattentive and they’re daydreaming and they’re looking out the window and then they tune back in and they’re panicked because they realize they miss what was going on. Right?

[00:16:54] Um, and vice versa, you know, you could be sitting there ruminating about what you’re anxious about. Yeah. And lo and behold, you haven’t been paying attention to the teacher or whatever it is, and so really it can be this bi directional pathway and it can be, there’s a chicken and egg scenario sometimes that you need to figure out.

[00:17:09] Yael Rothman: I really value our profession because not many people get to spend this much time with your child. A psychiatrist, a pediatrician, it might be an appointment, maybe even an hour long. I, I, I think, uh, probably, probably a lot shorter. We spend like eight hours with your kid. It’s so different. And we are also talking to so many different people. It’s, it’s really exciting that we get to do that. And we really get to, um, know your child through so many different perspectives.

[00:17:38] Randi Rubenstein: So thorough, and when you study to be a neuropsychologist, when you’re doing that extra level of school, like, are you mostly studying the brain, child development? Like tell, I would love to know a little bit more about that.

[00:17:56] Yael Rothman: We both are specializing in pediatric neuropsychology. So our fellowships were within, uh, centers that focused on child and adolescent development. So we have a whole variety of training in brain development and child development in, um, education and academic understanding. So, uh, a wide variety of topics. And the children I would see ranged in terms of medical differences, genetic differences, learning differences, emotional and social differences. So you’re really learning about everything there is to know about a young child.

[00:18:35] Randi Rubenstein: Wow. You know, I think it’s so interesting because I’ve talked to so many pediatricians who come through my program as parents and, one of my moms who comes on the podcast pretty frequently, and she’s so honest and awesome and we just have conversations like this. And we’ve discussed over and over again, she’s like, I was not trained in behavior, in behavioral strategies. I was trained to diagnose illness. Do you consider ADHD to be an illness?

[00:19:08] Katia Fredriksen: Oh, that’s an interesting question. I mean, I would say I consider it to be a neurodevelopmental condition. It’s to do with the development of the brain. And you know, it’s very fraught terminology, right? In terms of, um, you know, using an older medical model kind of style where things are referred to as diseases or disorders or right? Um, which can feel, of course, very disempowering to people who actually have have the particular diagnosis. And so you just want to be really cautious. 

[00:19:34] I mean, I guess from our angle, the main point is that it’s to do with neurological development. Right. And so there are certain things we can do to help, but it’s, you know, cause sometimes there’ll be this, so many misconceptions about ADHD, one of which is that, you know, also parenting, you know, as child was just poorly parented and that’s why they act this way. And so we talk a lot about how this has to do with brain development 

[00:19:55] Randi Rubenstein: Do you grow out of ADHD?

[00:19:57] Katia Fredriksen: Well, as your, it’s associated with the development of the frontal lobe of our brains, which is developing well through our sort of mid to late twenties. I feel like each time they look at it, it’s still, it’s like, they’re extending that time range. Um, so the sorts of characteristics associated with ADHD and the associated sort of executive functioning vulnerabilities that you very often see with planning and organizing and that sort of thing, will continue to develop and grow and improve as kids get older and their brains mature.

[00:20:26] Um. I don’t know that we can ever say exactly how someone will quote unquote sort of turn out as an adult. Right? But so very often you will see lingering sort of executive functioning vulnerabilities and adulthood sort of difficulty managing time and materials. And, um, but so I, I would say many people grow out of some of the more, um, sort of noticeable behavioral aspects.

[00:20:50] Randi Rubenstein: Mm.

[00:20:50] Yael Rothman: Then no longer meet formal criteria, but then, uh, have learned these ways to support themselves. Um, technology, calendars, all these different systems that they’ve been able to put in place. So maybe 

[00:21:04] Katia Fredriksen: Spouses! 

[00:21:04] Yael Rothman: they’re planning, perhaps, yes, yes. I’ve seen that a lot.

[00:21:10] Katia Fredriksen: Yeah. 

[00:21:10] Yael Rothman: Definitely. 

[00:21:12] Randi Rubenstein: Do you think that ADHD is considered to be a difference or disability?

[00:21:22] Yael Rothman: So, this is an important part of what our book is also about as well. When we talk about neurodiversity, which I’m sure is a common topic that comes up in your work here too. That ADHD comes along with challenges that you have to overcome. The world isn’t made for different thinkers, so we need to learn how to support ourselves. 

[00:21:49] And there are also some really cool strengths that come along with ADHD here, too. So, for example, we know that individuals with ADHD, in research we’ve found, are more creative than individuals without ADHD. There’s a high number of entrepreneurs. 

[00:22:06] Randi Rubenstein: Was going to say the same thing, yeah. Mm 

[00:22:10] Yael Rothman: There’s also some really cool, uh, abilities to be spontaneous or think outside of the box or these, um, characteristics where you can kind of hyper focus on areas of interest in ADHD really works well later on in life as you become an adult and have a job and, and can focus on your specific area of interest. 

[00:22:32] So, it’s something that you need to learn how you, um, understand, how you can support yourself, become your best self advocate, which is again why we are very strong believers in children learning about their profiles. Not to hide things from them, that they should hear, here’s how you can learn best, here’s what we’re going to try, here’s what your brain is like. That’s why we really wanted to focus on that so they can, um, succeed.

[00:23:02] Randi Rubenstein: Okay, so let me ask you a couple of questions. I love, I mean, you writing a book that empowers kids, this is, this is how you’re wired and to educate kids in an empowering way is a hundred percent aligned with me. 

[00:23:18] I had one of those girls who miss my, my next child who wasn’t diagnosed with anything. She fits the profile of all of a sudden in seventh grade, you know, she was a summer birthday. We had held, held her back. She was, you know, the world just always kind of worked for her and she was a voracious, voracious reader. So she was bored as can be in school. Not because she was a genius, but because it was freaking boring. Unfortunately traditional curriculums are, lot of worksheets and they’re not play based and, and I sent my kids to traditional schools and, and so she just sort of naturally organically, um, supplemented.

[00:24:05] I mean, her books were like her lifeline. She would read all day long at school. and because she was reading, you know, if you’re reading Harry Potter in second or third grade, like people, the teachers pretty much left her alone. Like she’d get the assignment done real quick and then she’d just get to read her book. so it got missed. 

[00:24:22] And then all of a sudden when she was in middle school, in seventh grade, it got more rigorous. She was in all these honors classes. And for the first time ever, things started to challenge her a little bit. And.

[00:24:34] Yael Rothman: That’s a really common story. We hear a lot. And it’s, it’s because, uh, Katia likes to say, and I’m sure other people do, like the squeaky wheel gets the grease, right? So it’s in those early years, it’s the child who is calling out and maybe misbehaving in a way that it’s impacting the class. That’s the child that’s going to get. The child who’s reading Harry Potter quietly in the corner is probably like, wow, good for them. That’s awesome.

[00:25:04] Randi Rubenstein: My gosh, her teachers, I, I, we joke because she went to this small, um, elementary school and there’s been this phenomenon of, her name is Avery, and all these teachers that taught at the school that were like the young teachers before they had kids, there’s been, I think like five teachers that were there and they’ve all had children since and they’d named their daughters Avery. Might be a coincidence. I was like, oh, there’s a teacher with another Avery who happened to be a young teacher when you were in elementary school. 

[00:25:34] Like, I think they loved her because she was augmenting her, their curriculum. She wasn’t being disruptive. She was just reading another book. until it caught up with her. 

[00:25:46] Yael Rothman: Those demands increase and to do more independently and you never learn the skills. We see a lot of kids who just got by with ever, never having to open a book or study or do anything and then suddenly boom, those honors classes.

[00:26:00] Katia Fredriksen: Right. It’ll come at one point or another, right? It’ll be middle school, high school, college, adulthood. I mean, we have people who, you know, like, Yael was saying we assess pediatric population, but parents will come in and say, well, I just got my ADHD diagnosis and I’m 45.

[00:26:16] Randi Rubenstein: Oh, I think I have it. I think our brains are wired very similarly and she’s now a senior in college. And she’s been raised with Mastermind Parenting. So we have real, I mean, she’s very aware of how she’s wired. 

[00:26:31] And it’s so interesting, because the way we kind of talk about it, she and I is when she’s in an engaging class, a topic that interests her, a teacher that is really amazing at teaching and is super engaging. Um, she’s on the edge of her seat. She, she loves it, but so often, you know, she’s like, Oh, I have to 

[00:27:00] Yael Rothman: Oh, 

[00:27:01] Randi Rubenstein: get through this class because 

[00:27:03] Katia Fredriksen: It’s much harder, right? I mean, that’s the whole, Yeah. Yeah. 

[00:27:06] I always get on my soapbox uh, but this like Attention Deficit Hyperactivity Disorder, right? I think this deficit word is ludicrous because it’s very misleading, right? Because we’re not talking about someone who cannot attend. And so sometimes parents will be like, what do you mean, my kid has ADHD? He can pay attention when he’s like, you

[00:27:24] Randi Rubenstein: they can play video games for hours.

[00:27:26] Katia Fredriksen: Sure for sure. Yeah, I mean it’s all to do with the degree of how stimulating it is how Comfortable and competent and interested the person feels. You know, and then you add on that emotional load that comes with feeling bored or stressed or you know, overly challenged and it’s literally so much more difficult to implement those same skills, right? 

[00:27:47] Randi Rubenstein: Yeah, I agree. And, when we talk amongst ourselves, we kind of joke that schools should use kids that are wired like you as like performance review tools for like what teachers are good and what teachers aren’t. Because when she hasn’t engaged, it really doesn’t matter what the subject is, and it’s been this way ever since middle school. When she has an engaging teacher, she’s all in. But when she has a tea, when it’s like a teacher and it’s a Bueller,

[00:28:18] Katia Fredriksen: hmm. Mm hmm

[00:28:20] Randi Rubenstein: She’s like, I literally want to die. Like I can’t believe I just made it through that class. And she does have a prescription, um, she’s, also old enough to really explain what it feels like. So even though she is ADHD, she says the stimulant, um, she’s like, it helps me. It helps me to be able to attend in classes that are super boring, but it, okay, now y’all are going to have to just, I hope I don’t offend you, but I’m probably going to offend you. She’s like, but it makes me super cunty. Like, she, you’re like, I wasn’t expecting that.

[00:29:00] Yael Rothman: I wasn’t I wasn’t sure what was about

[00:29:02] Katia Fredriksen: I knew something bad was coming, but I was just curious as to what direction this was going in.

[00:29:07] Randi Rubenstein: Yeah. Like, she’s like, I, I’m like a little angry. I’m a little mean and like,

[00:29:15] Katia Fredriksen: That’s unfortunate. I feel 

[00:29:16] Randi Rubenstein: She says it, it really, it will help her to attend and it also changes her personality a little.

[00:29:24] Katia Fredriksen: Oh, that’s a bummer. Well, is it the right one? I mean, because not to question like, your, but, but just, I know that different stimulants have different effects on different kids, right? Like sometimes there will be appetite suppression. 

[00:29:35] Randi Rubenstein: They’ve tried. Yeah. She’s had, yeah. She’s had like three or four. And, um, I mean, I think she also has a system that, you know, processes things, you know, I think it, you know, look, as you guys know, this is your area of expertise. It’s like how each human being processes how a drug, you know, how they react to a drug is so different. 

[00:29:56] Yael Rothman: And we are PhDs not MDs so we don’t prescribe the medications.

[00:30:01] Katia Fredriksen: But we talk about it a lot.

[00:30:03] Yael Rothman: We do, because we, we’re evidence based providers, we look to the research and, um, medications can be so amazingly effective for many individuals. But if you have these side effects, for sure, everybody out there listening, please talk to a medical provider and, and see if there are other, um, options there, yeah.

[00:30:22] Randi Rubenstein: I have another question. Because I do, I want to talk about the book and I want to talk about, your philosophy, and hear more about how people really do talk to their kids in an empowering way. my daughter does , I’ve given her these other assessments that I use a lot of times in my business. And so we really call her ADHD, her quick start. 

[00:30:43] She’s not averse to risk, risk, she plays hard. She goes balls to the wall. You know, she, she lives in a very big way. and I feel like she’s proud of the way that she’s wired. She understands it. And also, I’m so surprised when parents come and work with me and they, the first thing they, they come in with is with the labels, you know?

[00:31:06] So I know, we know before we know anything else about the kid. We know they’ve got this label, they’ve got this diagnosis, well, they’re ADHD, and, um, this, that, and the other. Very rarely do they, has anyone ever done a proper sort of sleep hygiene analysis of their child. And, and so when everyone comes and works with us, every family that comes and works with us, we start with basic needs and we get the sleep cleaned up and almost everyone needs it.

[00:31:40] Katia Fredriksen: Right.

[00:31:40] Randi Rubenstein: Um, I guess since you have, you know, that built into the way you work with, with kids and you get to be with them for so long, are you guys asking the parents and assessing doing any kind of sleep assessment? Is that protocol? 

[00:31:54] Katia Fredriksen: Yeah, for sure. Well, we, um, I mean, some people use formal questionnaires to assess sleep. We incorporate it into our, um, our intake interviews and our sort of developmental histories. I mean, the range of health behaviors. So we want to know about, um, amount of sleep, quality of sleep, bedtime, sort of, um, processes, nighttime, wakening, sort of how parents are managing sleep.

[00:32:16] Um, and we want to know about like diet, appetite, exercise, um, screen time, like, um, any potential substance use in older kids. We’re wanting to get that full, um, sort of array of where the health behaviors are. Cause so often, I mean, yeah, it’s like when, um, you know, someone comes in with a mysterious symptom where you want to rule out any sort of underlying medical ideology. And so it’s sort of along those lines. Like, is there something medical that needs to be taken care of? Um, before we even sort of dig into the other pieces. 

[00:32:47] Yael Rothman: For sure. We know that sleep and, uh, ADH, and attention are very well connected and that people with like obstructive sleep apnea would have attention challenges that can be improved with treatment. So for sure, you’d want to ask questions about that.

[00:33:04] Katia Fredriksen: Oh, and the phones, like the screens in the room, the 

[00:33:06] Yael Rothman: Oh, yes, yes. 

[00:33:07] Katia Fredriksen: a big issue. So hard. 

[00:33:09] Randi Rubenstein: I know it is so hard, but I think, you know, so many people come in and they have the label and then, I’m like, did you know that, that if you read the symptoms of ADHD and then the symptoms of a person who is sleep deprived. They’re pretty similar. 

[00:33:28] Katia Fredriksen: Oh, for sure. Yeah. You want to be sure that that piece is reasonable, right? Before you sort of go down a diagnostic or medication path that might not actually be appropriate.

[00:33:39] Randi Rubenstein: Well, I think this is part of the problem in our mainstream world is because so many professionals are not doing this sleep assessment, and digging in as thoroughly with these kids. And so we’ve got a teacher saying, Oh, he blurts out, he can’t keep his hands to himself. He doesn’t seem to be grasping the concepts I’m teaching.

[00:34:04] So we have a teacher and you know, I don’t blame the teacher. This is the way the teacher’s been educated and the teacher’s got, you know, 20 plus kids in their class. And, you know, 

[00:34:14] it’s a lot to have a kid that has impulse control issues. I mean, it can hijack your day. And so, I mean, those symptoms, not the kid, but those symptoms can really, you know, make your day very difficult.

[00:34:27] And but because their sleep isn’t being ruled out that this is a sleep issue, it looks like, they’ve got ADHD. And we’re going to go the med route. Let’s say, say somebody was talking to their pediatrician about this. 

[00:34:42] Yael Rothman: I’m hoping the pediatrician are asking all the questions as well, because there’s a lot of things you want to rule out. Is there trauma? Is there, an emotional piece? Is there a medical piece? So, what we value is a very thorough interview, but not just with a parent, with several different people to really understand them. 

[00:35:03] And I hope these medical providers are doing that. Um

[00:35:07] Randi Rubenstein: I don’t think so. I don’t think they are. I don’t think they are because I’m telling you, family after family comes in and I don’t ever argue with someone’s label. We’re just like, well, we’re just going to start with sleep and it’s not until after a while. And I would never. I, I’m like, I am not a doctor, but we just start with basic needs, yours and theirs. and so much improves once we get sleep cleaned up. 

[00:35:29] The other piece is it’s, it’s really hard for medical professionals. You know, you don’t want to blame this child’s symptoms on the parenting, right? That obviously, that’s unproductive, unhelpful, and frankly mean. Um, and also 

[00:35:47] when we walk people through cleaning up the sleep situation, it’s freaking hard, especially when you’ve got an eight or a 10 year old who has never gotten enough sleep. 

[00:36:00] And and so now you have to deal with boundaries and power struggles, and versus really they have this diagnosis. We can give them a pill. Um, okay, let’s do that. I mean, I don’t think anyone’s thinking about it in that way, but I feel like the right hand’s not talking to the left quite often.

[00:36:18] Yael Rothman: Unfortunately, the parents do get a lot of extra work here, um, because the pill actually wears off by the time the child comes home. So even if it is really helpful, um, a lot of times parents will still need to put it in that structure and support and kind of this out of the box thinking to support the child at home as well.

[00:36:40] Katia Fredriksen: Yeah.

[00:36:41] Randi Rubenstein: Hmm. 

[00:36:41] Yael Rothman: that’s definitely.

[00:36:42] Katia Fredriksen: But so along those lines of what you were saying, I mean, we would never say, oh, well, your parenting is to blame for this. Certainly not. But that said, it’s certainly the case that some strategies will be more helpful than others. Right? So, if we can sort of guide you in a direction where you can sort of incorporate some things that we know from research can be really helpful for kids with that. That’s part of what we’re trying to do through our evaluation process as well.

[00:37:06] Randi Rubenstein: Yeah, I think it’s so hard because I think, look, 

[00:37:09] it’s hard, like when you have an eight or a 10 year old who is, has impulse control and, uh, issues and problems regulating and they held it together all day and now their meds are wearing off and they come home and now they’re starving and now they’re hurting their sibling and and the parents dealing with that. I think parents are just so worn down that to tackle the sleep thing, the sleep and nutrition thing too, um, and have all the structures and the boundaries,

[00:37:40] Katia Fredriksen: Well, and the screen thing. 

[00:37:41] Randi Rubenstein: Yes. And the screen thing.

[00:37:43] Katia Fredriksen: Well, because we’re human beings too and we’ve had a long day and sometimes the time when the child is quietest is when they’re on the screen and when you can finally do the laundry or make the dinner or clean up or, you know, and so, and they’re not like fighting with their sibling. And so I have so much empathy for that. 

[00:37:59] because 

[00:38:00] it’s so it’s such hard work sometimes, especially in the evenings. Right? Um, and so it’s just how come we. It’s meet this need to get the child engaged in a way that doesn’t involve sort of like harassing their sibling or creating chaos and Can you know is there a way to sort of moderate some of the things that we might think are less healthy?

[00:38:21] Randi Rubenstein: Yeah.

[00:38:22] Yael Rothman: I think an important thing is when we write our reports, we come up with a lot of recommendations for the family and for the school, but we always say this is a plan for a while. This is not a hundred things you need to go home and do tonight. Let’s take one at a time and let other things go while we’re focusing on these steps. 

[00:38:43] So if you’re focusing on sleep, maybe we’re not worried about nutrition at this point in time, or we’re not worried about brushing your teeth tonight, or whatever it might be.

[00:38:52] Katia Fredriksen: Well, yeah, you have to pick your battles right? 

[00:38:54] Yael Rothman: Let, let a few things go. 

[00:38:56] Randi Rubenstein: Well, the way to, any kind of habit change or changing a pattern, it’s, I like to say it’s super unexciting, baby step by baby step. 

[00:39:05] Yael Rothman: Sure, yeah. 

[00:39:06] Randi Rubenstein: Lindsey, who works with me on my team, she likes to say less is more. Only because every people come in and they’re like, they want to tackle everything. And she’s like, it says, so that is great advice. And we say the same thing, one thing at a time.

[00:39:22] Katia Fredriksen: Right, right. Sometimes I’ll say, you know, you’ll get the report. We’ve talked about all this stuff. I’ll write it all up in your report. Choose like a couple of things that you want to tackle first, like write them on a piece of paper and put the magnet on your fridge or whatever. And just so that you’re getting that cue as you’re walking around during the course of the day. Oh, yeah, I’m trying to remember to offer more positive reinforcement or whatever it is. Right. 

[00:39:43] Um, and then once you feel like you’re sort of rolling with that, maybe add another thing to the list, right? You just, because people are perpetually overwhelmed, right? And we don’t want to add to that.

[00:39:54] Randi Rubenstein: It’s it’s hard. I mean, yeah, families are struggling. And, you know, on top of that. I was just talking to a 2nd grade teacher yesterday and, you know, the parents had come in and met with her and they, and they said, you took away his jacket. And she said, it was a sweatshirt. He was wearing it upside down. The arms were out and he was hitting other kids with it. And I asked him three times and he, finally, like it was disrupting our day, I had to take it away. 

[00:40:24] And so, you know, it’s, it’s impossible because the parents are hearing the story of their kids coming home and saying, and my teacher, she’s so mean, she took my jacket. And then the teacher’s over here saying, I had to take the jacket. I didn’t know what else to do. And it’s just like, the whole care team isn’t talking to each other. And so it’s, um, it is a really impossible place for, I think, parents and teachers.

[00:40:52] Katia Fredriksen: Right. It makes me think of what you were saying earlier about pediatricians feeling overwhelmed by this, um, you know, expectation that there’ll be this one stop shop. Same for teachers. I mean, these days we are asking, um, so much more of them.

[00:41:05] Yael Rothman: Mm 

[00:41:05] Randi Rubenstein: Same for parents.

[00:41:06] Katia Fredriksen: Well, yeah, I guess same for all of us.

[00:41:08] Randi Rubenstein: Right? And same for parents because then parents are like, oh, well, my kid didn’t, wasn’t able to pay attention all day long. So now it’s my job to sit 

[00:41:16] Katia Fredriksen: Teach them algebra or whatever.

[00:41:17] Randi Rubenstein: teach them and I, right. And to try and get them to pay attention after they sat at school all day. And it really is.

[00:41:24] Okay. So how are we going to empower these kids? Talk to me about this amazing book that you guys wrote. I love it.

[00:41:34] Yael Rothman: You want to start, Katia?

[00:41:36] Katia Fredriksen: Sure, well, so our book is called Different Thinkers ADHD, and it’s going to be part of a series on, we’re doing autism next. And it’s a, designed for children, sort of elementary school aged, um, up to maybe, I don’t know, 12 or so, but that’s just an estimate, you know, different kids will be at different levels at different ages. Right? As we all know. 

[00:41:58] And the idea is that, um, a child can sort of sit and look through it on their own, which I’ve heard friends doing with their kids or, um, people, you know, parents will sit down and sort of read the book. And that’s sort of how we designed it. Um, parents or other sort of care providers.

[00:42:14] And the idea is to introduce us, like, who are we and who are we to sort of be telling you stuff. So we sort of say that we’re what we do for a living, that we’re both parents as well. So we sort of bring those, um, dual perspectives. We talk about brain development in sort of, in an elementary school aged way, but in a way that I think it’s still, um, sort of pretty comprehensive, with a lot of lovely illustrations. We’re very fortunate to have this really nice illustrator that was assigned to us and who’s fantastic. 

[00:42:43] Um, and then, the idea of the book is to present the ADHD diagnosis because, you know, part of what we do, um, in our jobs is, you know, we do an evaluation, but then we send parents off with, as we’ve been sort of talking about, like, lots of ideas and recommendations, and very often we want to send them off with good resources they can refer to. And parents very often want something that they can, um, you know, expose their child to, to help them understand how their, um, how their brain works and sort of what we were doing throughout the course of these hours of this evaluation.

[00:43:12] And we have had, we had trouble sort of finding books that we really liked that presented sort of the full array of the diagnosis, as opposed to a single characteristic, like, so and so has trouble with personal space or whatever it is. And that’s helpful, but it doesn’t again, necessarily present the whole thing. And so we were trying to be a little more comprehensive. 

[00:43:32] Um, and so, in the book, we present three different vignettes of children who, um, have different sorts of ADHD, right? Whose ADHD presents in a different manner. And, um, we present sort of how, well, okay, so these kids seem quite different, but actually they all have something in common.

[00:43:51] They’re different thinkers. They have ADHD. Here’s what that means. Here are, sort of fun facts about it. Here are, um, strengths associated with it. And here’s what each of these kids, um, and their parents are doing to sort of help them be more successful at home and at school, et cetera. 

[00:44:07] And, uh, then we present a workbook sort of, where kids can sort of go through their own strengths and areas that they wish, uh, they wanted to work on. Right. Um, so they can sort of write in there themselves. 

[00:44:19] And then the idea is that it’s meant to be sort of an interactive interactive experience. So, throughout there’s sort of like, do you, do you have this experience or have you ever noticed this or, you know, have you seen this in your family or, or whatever it is? And so the idea is to sort of make it a discussion between parent and child or caregiver and child. 

[00:44:38] Randi Rubenstein: Oh, Do you think that this is a book that classrooms, like teachers would use? 

[00:44:44] Katia Fredriksen: Oh, for sure, I have uh, colleague colleagues and friends who are teachers who have bought the book for their classrooms. I mean, it’s a great way too, I think, uh, I mean, for someone who is explaining ADHD to a child who has ADHD, but also you, you could use it with a sibling. You could use it with a friend. You could use it with a classmate. Um. 

[00:45:04] Yael Rothman: We’ve had that feedback that kids, uh, um, who do not meet criteria for ADHD, they’re, they don’t have ADHD, uh, were being read the book and they said, Oh, that’s not me, but that I, I recognize that in like a classmate and it helped them understand some of these things. And actually, uh, we got the feedback that the child really enjoyed talking about some of these things and wanted to talk about their own strengths and challenges, which again, had nothing to do with ADHD, but it opened up a really cool conversation between the child and their parents.

[00:45:39] Randi Rubenstein: I love that. I love that. I remember when my son, who’s now a senior in high school, was in kindergarten, um, I was laughing because I was like, everybody goes and, and, and finds the right resource to find out, is there something to figure out about my child? I was like, but really they could just ask their kindergarten classmates. 

[00:46:00] Because I remember Corey was in kindergarten and in the middle of the year they got a new student and I was asking after school, we were talking about it and he’s like, Oh, we got a new student. I was like, Oh yeah. And so he was telling me and I was like, Oh, and did you play with him at all? What was he like? And he’s like, Oh, he’s just like this one and this one. He named a boy and a girl who were the two kids that I knew had some neurodiversity and were probably on the spectrum. It turns out they did end up being on the spectrum, but it wasn’t figured out until maybe like by fourth grade. And it was when they were, I was like, Corey knew in kindergarten.

[00:46:37] Katia Fredriksen: Good, uh, good instincts there, Corey.

[00:46:39] Randi Rubenstein: but it was like the kids know, you know, he was like, Oh yeah, he’s like, so and so and so. and so. 

[00:46:44] Katia Fredriksen: You know what I like? I like how he said he’s like so and so and so and so. He didn’t say he’s, he’s like a pain in the butt. Or I mean, it was some pejorative. I mean, that’s what we sort of, that’s one reason why we think we really want kids to know, to call a spade a spade. 

[00:46:57] Like this is your diagnosis. This is what it means. You’re great at this. Certain things are harder for you. Here’s what we’re going to do to help with that, as opposed to, you know, kids labeling themselves, or being labeled by classmates, because not all children are as kind as Corey was, right? And are really sort of, um, oftentimes it’ll be more of a negative kind of a label, and that can be really hard.

[00:47:21] Randi Rubenstein: I mean, he was also in kindergarten. So I 

[00:47:22] Katia Fredriksen: Well, still, I don’t know.

[00:47:24] Randi Rubenstein: Well, well, it was like that young innocence and, and the other thing I’ll say for parents who have kids who are ADHD, um, my daughter, her understanding how she’s wired, so books like yours, um, resources like yours, conversations that you’re, that you can have with your child, especially, I love that your book can be a conversation starter.

[00:47:48] What that looks like now. What it looks like now is, you know, she’s a senior in college, so there have been times where she’s getting an internship or, you know, and as her mom, she turns to me and she’s stressed about something and I’m sort of coaching her, helping her, supporting her. 

[00:48:07] When I have a resource that I know could help her. I know, like, I’m a kind of a fact finder, so I love resourcing things. I know if I find a good resource, like a 30 minute long YouTube video on something, I will literally screen grab the golden two minutes. And I’ll just like screen record two minutes and I send her that two minute clip. 

[00:48:35] Because what I know about her brain is that if I send her the link and it’s, and she looks at it and It’s she’ll mean to, it’ll be on her to do list. She will really be, have the best of intentions, but it really actually will just add to her stress. Versus if I’m like, Hey, I grabbed this little two minute clip. Two minutes. And you can even speed up to two minutes. You know, you can speed it up if you want to, or I already, and just to help her in that way, like she it’s, she’ll watch the two minute clips.

[00:49:04] So I think it also helps your kid if they know how they’re wired. Too much information, system overload. But you also like, I could be like, I sent you that clip here. I am using my time. You said you were stressed about this internship thing. I’m not going to send you resources if you’re not even going to take the time, but I know like two minutes. So I think, I think that that this awareness piece is so critical in supporting your kid who is, you know, whose brain is wired differently.

[00:49:35] Katia Fredriksen: Well, in regard to their awareness and also in regard to the parents, right, I mean, it’s sort of dovetails with what we talked to folks a lot about, which is this whole idea of things that your kid is choosing not to do and things that they literally cannot yet do, like the whole can’t do, won’t do thing. 

[00:49:49] Like the perspective there on the clip could be, well, you’ve chosen not to watch this clip. I put all this effort and thought into, to obtain for you, whereas, you know, it’s just going to be an additional sort of burden for her, despite her best intentions. And so you’ve, you’ve sort of tailored it so that it will be an effective intervention for her. Right?

[00:50:06] Randi Rubenstein: Yeah. Yeah. And it’s, uh, yeah, I think so often people are fighting, it’s like so many arguments. Are just a big, giant miscommunication. And so when we have this, this added awareness piece, which is what does this label mean? 

[00:50:25] It’s actually not, it’s not necessarily a disability. It’s there’s a lot of entrepreneurs. There’s a lot of people doing amazing things, right? Who really, we need, I mean. I think probably all of Silicon Valley is, you know, it’s like a neurodiverse population. Would we each have these little amazing computers, you know, 

[00:50:48] Katia Fredriksen: No kidding. 

[00:50:49] Randi Rubenstein: the love hate. There’s lots of hate about Silicon Valley, maybe because maybe they’re like, Oh, social skills and thinking about human relationships, that’s not really our skill set. So we weren’t really thinking about how addicted you all were going to get to these things. 

[00:51:05] Um, but you know what, without that neurodiverse population, would we have all of these amazing advancements? Like I think there, there is a lot of positives there, but I don’t think we’re having those conversations if we’re thinking about it like there’s something wrong with our kid and they just, you know, they just drew the short straw.

[00:51:23] Katia Fredriksen: We all have strengths and weaknesses, right? And some things, uh, sort of are sufficiently pronounced that we put like a name to it. Um, but it’s, I mean, we all have our own individual profile. That’s always what I say to kids when they come in to start the testing. Some things are going to be easier for you. Some things are going to be harder. That’s just part of the process, you know? 

[00:51:43] Randi Rubenstein: Welcome. Welcome. 

[00:51:44] Katia Fredriksen: Welcome to the world.

[00:51:46] Randi Rubenstein: Yeah. Welcome to being a human. Right. And if we were all exactly the same, I don’t think we’d be called human. I think we’d be called robot.

[00:51:54] Katia Fredriksen: For sure, it would be a pretty boring place, wouldn’t it?

[00:51:56] Randi Rubenstein: Yeah, it would. Okay. Well, um, this was a fun conversation even though, yeah, I, I, the, the shock, the shock value with the C word. Um, 

[00:52:06] Katia Fredriksen: I know, right? I’m gonna have to write about that in my journal tonight.

[00:52:09] Randi Rubenstein: Exactly. You’re like, whoa, whoa, Whew, that just, that just sent my nervous system

[00:52:14] Katia Fredriksen: Spicy! 

[00:52:14] Randi Rubenstein: into a state. Um, is there any final thoughts or, or thing, anything you’d like to leave the listeners with?

[00:52:23] Yael Rothman: I hope this is a helpful resource, um, to many families or educators or other providers out there. know that asking for help and guidance is so important, and we, um, would love to be resources for people or talk to other professionals, but, um, getting comfortable with Uh, neurodiversity, diagnosis, that’s, that’s so helpful to understanding a different thinker.

[00:52:53] Randi Rubenstein: Perfect. Okay. Again, the, the book is called Different Thinkers ADHD and the authors are Dr. Yael Rothman and Dr. Katia Fredriksen. Um, and are you in the same city? Are you located in the same city?

[00:53:11] Katia Fredriksen: For now, one of us is moving in a few months, but yeah, we’re in the, we’re in D. C. in the suburbs.

[00:53:18] Randi Rubenstein: Got it. Oh, I guess it’s Yael that’s moving.

[00:53:21] Katia Fredriksen: I know. How did you know that 

[00:53:23] Yael Rothman: You could tell, 

[00:53:24] Katia Fredriksen: she’s leaving?

[00:53:25] Randi Rubenstein: Where are you going?

[00:53:27] Yael Rothman: I’m heading to New York. I actually, I’m having a baby in three days, and then, 

[00:53:32] Randi Rubenstein: Wow. 

[00:53:33] Yael Rothman: Uh, in the summer we’ll be moving, yes.

[00:53:36] Randi Rubenstein: You’re having a baby in three days and here you are with me.

[00:53:39] Katia Fredriksen: I know. Pretty cool, huh?

[00:53:41] Yael Rothman: I wouldn’t be anywhere else, yes.

[00:53:43] Randi Rubenstein: My gosh. Congratulations. This is your second baby. You already? Yeah. Oh my gosh. This is exciting. Okay. Well, thank you. Extra thank you for being here. This was fun. All right. Thanks so much. And I’ll put a link in the show notes for everyone. So you can buy the book. All right. 

[00:54:01] Katia Fredriksen: Thank you 

[00:54:01] Yael Rothman: For having us. 

[00:54:02] Randi Rubenstein: You’re welcome. Bye bye.

[00:54:03] Thanks for listening today, guys. I hope you picked up some tips, tools, maybe some baby steps for creating more balance and boundaries in your life. And I just wanted to let you know, if you want to continue moving the needle forward in creating this for yourself, having a happier household, I want you to go to my website and check out mastermindparenting.com. We have three beginning programs, and if you need some accountability and more support then please look for the one that would be a good fit for you.

[00:54:38] And, as always, we’re on all the social channels under mastermind parenting, on Instagram it’s mastermind_parenting. And, you know, periodically I do pop up on different Instagram lives, Facebook lives where I give you teaching and coaching and I love engaging with you live to help you help your strong-willed kids so that they can feel better, because when they feel better they do better, and I love, love, love getting to know you guys. 

[00:55:11] So thanks for listening. If you like this podcast, please don’t forget to subscribe, rate and review. Super super appreciative

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