MMP 303 – Eli Harwood

[00:00:00] Randi Rubenstein: My name is Randi Rubenstein, and welcome to the Mastermind Parenting Podcast. At Mastermind Parenting, we’re on a mission to support strong-willed kids and the families that love them. 

Hi everyone. I have an exciting, exciting episode this week. I am here with Eli Harwood. Eli is a licensed therapist who lives in Colorado with her husband, Trevor, and their three children. She’s been nerding out on attachment research for the past two decades. Okay. I’ve been nerding out for the past two months, so you’ve got a lot to catch me up on. Um, for the past two decades and she’s on a mission to help make the world a better place one relationship at a time. She continues this mission in her clinical work, her writing and running her mouth about attachment on social media. When she isn’t working to make the world a more secure place, she’s playing dress up with her kids, obsessing about her sourdough starter and reminiscing about that one time she won a set of globes at a Price Is Right. As a Price is Rice, right. Right. As a Price is Right contestant. Visit her at attachmentnerd. com. So welcome, welcome. So excited to talk to you.

[00:01:06] Eli Harwood: Thank you so much. I’m so glad to be here.

[00:01:08] Randi Rubenstein: We’ve been exchanging emails and you know, I’ve been fangirling over you because I feel like the universe sent you to me. Because, like, I just read your book. And what I realized is, is like, I do everything out of order in my life. I’m just like, not a linear person. And I’m like, okay, so what you have and what you’re teaching all this attachment research and putting it into real people language so we can understand it and understanding what the hell attachment even is.

Um, like. Um, it’s the most pivotal, I don’t want to say it’s the most pivotal piece because we’re going to get into what I really think is the most pivotal piece, but like figuring out our own attachment, like are we, you know, were we securely attached to our, to our main caregiver, to our mother? Were we not like, that’s such an important thing for us to know as parents. Wouldn’t

[00:02:10] Eli Harwood: Yes. Yeah. I mean, the way I think of it is, you know, there’s a lot of things we inherit from our parents, our genetics, you know, our culture, our language, but the piece that we inherit that we can adjust for the benefit of our children the most is the patterns of relating. And that’s what attachment is.

So it’s like, how did our caregivers relate to us? And how did that affect us in our nervous system? And then how can we get ourselves into a secure place about who we are, about our emotions, our needs, our responsiveness to other people, so that we can cultivate secure patterns that our kids can then inherit, and then take those onto the next generation and the next generation.

And if we don’t take the time to figure out what it was like in our own childhood relationships, we usually just repeat some stuff that we don’t wanna repeat. Right? You really can’t go forward without looking back.

[00:03:08] Randi Rubenstein: we Usually. I think always. I mean, I.

[00:03:11] Eli Harwood: That’s true.

[00:03:12] Randi Rubenstein: Because you’re operating from your conditioning, your subconscious conditioning, your body conditioning. Um, like they say like 95 percent of the time until you start to do this work and understand it. Like I call it finding your puzzle pieces, right? And, and most of these puzzle pieces are invisible. 

Um, and so this attachment work and understanding, like starting with, I don’t know, do I have secure attachment as a kid? Right. Like, I think the most pivotal piece is, is really learning about your own attachment. And I don’t know if that happens without working with a therapist to help you uncover it.

Like I, now it’s taken, like I can say 26 years in, I’m reading this attachment stuff and I’m like, Oh, I for sure had insecure attachment and I, I want to, I, I, from the, the little bits and pieces that I’ve learned, I’m pretty sure I was some form of avoidant.

[00:04:26] Eli Harwood: Mm-Hmm. 

[00:04:27] Randi Rubenstein: But like, if I had gotten this information when my kids were little and I had known that I could have found a really good therapist to help me understand this and understand this about myself, see it, it’s like bring it out of my blind spot. It wouldn’t have taken me over two decades to finally organically come to this learning, you know? 

[00:04:53] Eli Harwood: This is exactly why I’m doing what I’m doing, because I was doing the work as a therapist and I was watching the potency of this information hit parents hearts in a way that allowed them to make massive transformations and what they’re doing with their kids, which was so effective in helping kids to regulate and thrive and feel secure, and therefore learn behavior that they need to learn or get through a hard season. 

So I was like, okay, I have to take this out and I have to start spreading the message in a way that people can access earlier in their parenting journey and more effectively, like this gotta be out there. Because truly once, once you kind of click on this and you recognize, oh, this is an attachment thing. This is my story, my inheritance. This is what happens for me when emotions enter the room. And this is what I want to learn how to do. You have a, you have an actual transformation process. You can understand what it is you’re transforming and the steps to get there.

And that’s so powerful as parents because I know very few parents who aren’t entirely dedicated to giving their kids the best they possibly can. Most parents are doing that. But, according to the statistics, 50 percent of us are insecure and passing insecure patterns down to our kids. And so we really want to give as many parents as possible, the information they need.

And that’s why I wrote this book. I actually have a first book that’s a guided journal too, because not everybody can find a therapist or afford therapy. So that was really important to me. So there’s a guided journal that is more like, here’s the questions you need to ask yourself about your childhood, about later on other relationships that affected your patterns and how you can learn secure patterns in your adult relationships. Which is huge as a parent, because if we don’t have secure places where we can vent and we can cry and we can get buffered, it’s a lot harder to buffer our children. You know?

[00:06:48] Randi Rubenstein: A hundred, I mean, a hundred percent. And I love that you have the journal because that’s probably what I would have done. I mean, as an avoidant attachment person,

[00:06:57] Eli Harwood: Yeah. You’re not looking for the therapist. 

[00:06:59] Randi Rubenstein: No, I was a lone wolf, I was like I got it, I’m not problem. I handle my own stuff and I’m not going to bother anyone else with it. And, you know, and so I, yeah, I’ve been a, I’ve been a isolated self helper. Um, right. I was addicted. I mean, you know, early on when I had this baby that wouldn’t stop crying, it’s just, I knew there was something to figure out. I, and I just, I had this. 

You know, now I know my why that was driving me was. Damn it. My kids are going to have a happy childhood, you know, like I was so driven. I didn’t realize that I was so driven. It was all unconscious. But when I had a baby that cried all the time or a lot of the time and just didn’t seem happy, um, I started learning all about child development. I started reading all these books and I, you know, my husband was like, what the fuck? Like what are you reading? Like, like what? 

And I, you know, and I was like. Are you talking to me? I’m I was just in the middle of something. Like he’s like your it’s like you’re cramming for a semester final tomorrow and you never went to class, like what are you reading? I was like Stop talking to me. I just need a minute. I mean

[00:08:19] Eli Harwood: You were panicking and you were panicking in part because you didn’t have a regulating experience. 

So what I think people get confused a lot is the idea that if our kids are secure with us, that means that they don’t feel upset as often or they don’t have big feelings. But it’s actually that they have a deep sense that there is a grownup in their life who can handle their emotional states, not overreact and not underreact. You know, we don’t want to say you’re fine. Stop that. Everything’s fine. Look at the bright side. But we also don’t want to go, Oh my God, something’s wrong. Oh my gosh, this is terrible. You’re having a dramatic experience.

We want to be able to say like, Oh honey, you’re uncomfortable, or you’re a highly sensitive baby. You know, I had a couple of those. So. You know, that, that this is your temperament. This is what you’re working through. I’m here. Um, and that, that urgency that you had of like, we’ve got to make these feelings go away. That was what little Randi learned to do.

[00:09:17] Randi Rubenstein: Yeah

[00:09:18] Eli Harwood: Nobody here can handle my feelings. My feelings are a burden. I need to make them go away. And so then you come into motherhood and mother Randi thinks I’ve got to make this kid’s feelings go away. That’s what I’m supposed to do.

[00:09:30] Randi Rubenstein: Yep

[00:09:31] Eli Harwood: Oh, what an insight you had. I’m, I just want to like applaud you for having done that work to be curious about what was driving that anxiety for you.

[00:09:41] Randi Rubenstein: Yeah. I mean, it’s been a long road and I feel like it’s all kind of coming together and in perfect timing. I mean, my, I’m three days away from, two days away from taking my youngest child to college. Right? I mean, it’s so crazy that I’m having you on, which this is really the foundational work that if I had found, I mean, I’m, you’re too young for me to have found you 26 years ago. 

[00:10:11] Eli Harwood: Yes. 

[00:10:11] Randi Rubenstein: But if I had found this, if I had found someone like you, if I had found your book that would have opened my eyes and, um, and, and sort of led me on this path sooner, you know, I, I mean, this has been a long, you know, when people are like, how did you get into this like, where do I start? I mean, I don’t. Yeah. I don’t even know.

[00:10:40] Eli Harwood: I was, I mean, I joke sometimes about myself that, you know, when people say, how long have you been practicing? I’m like, well, upwards of 40 years, because, uh, it’s been from my childhood experiences that I was drawn to the work because I also had insecure attachments dynamics with both of my parents. And so when we come into this, you know, awareness, there’s usually uh, a season or a stage of our life where we didn’t have the information and it would have been helpful to have it. 

[00:11:10] Randi Rubenstein: Yeah. It would. Yeah. It would have been helpful and it would have been helpful to have the support and the resources because I think when you get this information, um, there’s a, a lot of grieving, right? Like grieving, grieving what you didn’t have. And, um, and it’s confusing because you’re grieving what you didn’t have, but also now like you’re, you’ve, you’re taking care of little people and so they’re dependent on you to be alive. And so you’re like, okay, I got to figure my shit out or pretend that I have it together because you know, like they need to go to the park, or they need to be wiped. 

[00:11:50] Eli Harwood: Yeah. So, so that’s, it’s containing, right? So I, I call this healing while dealing, which, you know, I had, this is one area I had some tremendous privileges that I discovered this research before I had kids. And so I didn’t have to kind of undo my relational patterns at the same time that I was being swamped in motherhood.

But I think that that’s the most common experience around this. Is learning these things or knowing that we need to learn these things. Once our kids are in our lives, because that’s usually the trigger. That’s like, well, Something’s funny here. I don’t feel so great about what’s happening and I don’t know what it is.

Um, so that’s healing while dealing and when you’re healing while dealing, you really are doing a tremendous mental gymnastics maneuver because yes, you do need to feel sad that you didn’t have caregivers who were soft enough and sturdy enough for you to feel secure.

[00:12:41] Randi Rubenstein: Mm hmm.

[00:12:42] Eli Harwood: And your children do need you to, in this moment, be soft enough and sturdy enough for them to feel secure.

So, and not 24 7, let’s actually start with 1 of my favorite statistics. And this is in the book, but there’s some research that shows when children are securely attached to their caregivers, that experience of synchronicity of like, you’re in an emotional state and I’m there for you and I’m helping regulate you is only happening 30 percent of the time. I like to say parenting is graded, graded on a curve because nobody’s getting a hundred percent. So an A cannot be a hundred percent, an A is a 30 percent. 

And so we’re, we’re not expecting ourselves to be perfect or do this right all the time. It’s about a pattern. So is my primary pattern with my children that I am soft enough that they can have feelings and they can feel nurtured by me and understood, but I am sturdy enough that I can have boundaries and there’s structure and they sense that I am guiding them in an actual direction, right? If I can do those two things, 30 percent of the time, my kids will go, I can rely on my caregiver.

[00:13:52] Randi Rubenstein: I think I, I, yeah, I think I read that same statistic years ago and I’ve shared it with, with many parents and I will tell you, it makes people feel so much better.

[00:14:01] Eli Harwood: Yes.

[00:14:02] Randi Rubenstein: yeah,

[00:14:02] Eli Harwood: Pretend it’s 50 percent or 70 percent let’s even pretend that that’s a statistic because it is, you know, it’s a scientific piece of information. We could get another piece of information later. Let’s pretend. I still think it’s best to believe that one, because it helps us with our anxiety. And coming into parenting with a perfection mindset and an anxiety mindset just seals the deal that our kids won’t feel secure with us.

Like you cannot offer a kid security by obsessing about whether or not your kid is secure with you. You have to kind of go into that place of self compassion and self trust and go, I’m doing the best I can. I’m going to keep learning and two years from now I’m going to do better than I am doing right now because that’s the growth process as a parent. But that doesn’t mean my kid’s not getting a good enough parent all along the way. 

[00:14:48] Randi Rubenstein: We’re finishing each other’s sentences, because I was literally about to say so many people come with that perfectionism mindset. And, and then you just went into, I was like, exactly that, that, that, that.

Okay. So I want to just play like the very beginning intro of your book and, um, and yeah, and for everyone, her book does come in print, it’s called Raising Securely Attached Kids: Using Connection Focused Parenting to Create Confidence, Empathy and Resilience. And, uh, I, in this nowadays, because it’s amazing, I listen to most books like this on Audible. I used to have to read everything. I know. And then fall asleep two pages in and now on and off during my day. I mean, I listened to your book in like four days. It was perfect. I loved it. Um, okay. So I’m going to play just like two minutes and then we’ll talk about it.

[00:15:47] Raising Securely Attached Kids Audiobook: There are so many good books and guides available to help us all learn how to parent in conscious, smart, and effective ways. While those resources are wonderful and can be a huge help in navigating particularly challenging situations or stages, clients often come to me reporting that the techniques or approaches in these books quote unquote don’t work. And that they’ve had to fall back on parenting techniques that they don’t want to use, like yelling, shaming, and punishing.

When I check out the books they have been consulting, they usually offer sound parenting advice. But the advice written in them is advice that works brilliantly if, and only if, we have already cultivated a secure attachment pattern with our children. Attachment research is clear. The quality of the relationship between a caregiver and a child is the first ingredient necessary for helping our children to learn, grow, and thrive. 

While it’s great to learn an acronym to help us stick to a consistent routine, it won’t do diddly squat in the long run if our children don’t emotionally trust us. Creating a secure relationship with our children Is the foundational step in helping them live deeply fulfilling, meaningful, and connected lives. When our children feel seen, heard, supported, and emotionally soothed by us, the practical parenting tips and tricks work way more often.

A connected relationship is truly the most outstanding ingredient needed to raise a well-regulated, socially capable, all around secure kid who grows into a caring, confident, and resilient adult. 

[00:17:33] Randi Rubenstein: That, like I, I teach a concept. I mean, I’m not the one who came up with it. I think a lot of people do. You got to connect before you correct. And we have a program and so we take people through this 12 week program and we don’t get to consequences until the last three weeks of the program. And so they’re spending nine weeks where we’re focusing on the connection piece, right? And, and, and really taking them through, like, how do we, how do we help our kids to feel securely attached? And so we have this framework for how we do it, right?

And um, and so I think even just the term connection. Even though everyone, you know, it’s kind of like the term empathy, like over, you know, it’s like people are like, okay, I know what it is, but like, could you give me an example? Like, or what exactly do you mean by that? You know, even I think the term connection can trip people up a little bit. Um, like what does it look like? What exactly am I going for? Can you give me an example? Um, so I, I’m interested in like, what, what would you say to that? Um, would you tie it into this secure attachment concept and how would you, how would you explain that?

[00:19:00] Eli Harwood: Yes. Well, connection is absolutely one of the primary ingredients that we need to have in our relationship with our children for them to feel secure with us. Um, and I like to think of it as the ability to be in sync with our kids. And we all know what this feels like in relationships. Um, I let there, you know, kind of more like colloquial terms would be like, we’re vibing, right? There’s sort of a vibe between us. 

When we look at it in the data, we also call this attunement and it’s our ability to catch our child’s internal state and enter into some form of soothing or satisfying rhythm when they are in that state. So as an example, let’s say our child comes home from school and they are so excited because tomorrow is spirit day and they’re like, mom, mom, mom, mom, mom, can we get some hairspray? Can we do this? Right? 

A connected response or an attuned response would be that we would allow that excitement to enter into our body enough that we can join them where we’re like, wait, what? You’re so excited about spirit day. This is so exciting. It doesn’t mean that we say like, yes, we can go right now to Walgreens and buy seven cans of colored hairspray. It’s that we’re joining their body state and we’re understanding the enthusiasm in their body.

And that experience of someone joining us… and it doesn’t mean that we’re becoming their feeling state, but we’re, we’re, we’re catching it. I like to think of it as like taking a sip, you know, we don’t want to like chug our child’s feeling state and let it take over us and lose where we were, but we want to take a sip of it so they can sense that we have an awareness of what’s going on inside of them, and we’re with them in that. 

On the flip side, let’s say our kid comes home from school and they’re just really low. You know, and we’re like, how was your day? And they’re like, crappy. You know, we’re going to join that state by remembering what it’s like in our bodies when we have a crappy day and what we would hope people would offer us in that state, which is, you know, we’re, we’re coming down a little bit where we’re going to amp up when our child’s excited to join their excitement, we’re going to kind of amp down into that space. We’re going to lower our voice, right? Our body’s going to kind of get into a little slumpier zone. We’re going to say, I’m so sorry you had a crappy day. And our child will be able to feel that we’ve entered that rhythm with their nervous system. But we have also maintained a groundedness, right? 

So if our child’s going today was crappy and we’re going, what happened? Who did it? What’s their phone number? I’m calling the principal. That’s not attuned or connected. That’s a rescue stance. And that’s very anxious. Now we’ve just added anxiety into our child’s lower state of feeling. 

Um, when we can be with, that’s, that’s a great word to hold on to is withness, like be with your child in their emotional states. That’s connection. Um, when they can sense that their presence in the room affects our nervous system, but doesn’t over affect our nervous system. We don’t want our children to feel like they’re so powerful that whatever they feel knocks us over, or we completely change our boundaries as a result of what they feel, but we want them to sense that I feel you kid. And I’m here. I got you. I’m with you. You’re not alone in this feeling state, whether it’s a joyful feeling state or a painful feeling state. I am connected to you. How’s that? That was a long winded answer. 

[00:22:31] Randi Rubenstein: No, I absolutely love that, and I want to even take it a little bit further. So, when we’re doing this attachment research on ourselves, right, trying to figure out, was I a securely attached kid or not? Would you say that an indication, probably not is if you go into that rescuer hero fixer mode? And you’re calling the principal and you, and you’re so panicked, you’re so overcome.

Like of course when our kid has a shitty day, it doesn’t feel good. We’re not happy about that. Right? So being with, I love that being with, right? Like it is going to affect you. But when you find yourself now, like just, obsessed with fixing, solving, rescuing. That’s probably, would you say that would be an indication that you have some work to do in terms of your own attachment wounds?

[00:23:35] Eli Harwood: Absolutely. Because what it tells us is that you have a survival response to emotion and discomfort. And why do you have that survival response? Well, it’s because you had to handle what you felt on your own. 

And, you know, there’s a lot we can really geek out and I geek out in the book enough about it, but we would guess, we would guess that if you take that hyper vigilant kind of response to your child’s emotions, that you grew up with a caregiver who was sometimes able to be there for you, but not at a level that it was a pattern. So you had a taste of that experience, but you had way more of a taste of feeling abandoned emotionally. And so when you’re in this parenting role now you take on a more enmeshed approach to your child because you’re like, I don’t want you to ever feel alone in what you feel.

And so you, you think that by being rescuing and by being hyper responsive, that your child won’t feel what you felt, but actually, ironically, they feel something similar because they can feel you amp up into your trauma when they are in their feelings, and that actually is creating the type of abandonment feeling that you felt.

[00:24:54] Randi Rubenstein: Hmm. Mm

[00:24:56] Eli Harwood: It breaks my heart because the intention is so good. It’s like, I don’t want my kid to have to go through what I went through. Like, oh my gosh, that’s beautiful. That’s beautiful. But we can’t offer our kids a secure parent if we haven’t first learned to be secure in our own nervous system and in our own body and our own emotions. We have to do that work first.

[00:25:16] Randi Rubenstein: Yeah. And that’s why I think it’s helpful, I mean, I want everyone to listen to this and to learn about it, not from a place of, oh, great. I’ve been doing it wrong. . You know, I always say I’m a fixer in recovery that quite often relapses. Um, that, I mean that’s my go, my go-to is fixer. Rescuer. And. And so, you know, when you hear these things about yourself, like to have the self compassion to say, well, but of course that obviously was my conditioning. And, I want to hear more about when you show up as a fixer or a rescuer, it means that there were times that someone showed up for you and there were also probably more times that they didn’t, but it doesn’t mean that no one, like, like, so I must have had the feeling that, or I must have felt like there was someone that was there to,

[00:26:18] Eli Harwood: Here’s a question. That’s the question for you is with either of your caregivers, if you had two, or with any of your extended caregiving family, so that also could be like grandparents, uncles, aunts, teachers. Did you ever, as a child have the experience of someone being emotionally soft and caring with you when you were tender? Did you ever have an experience like that?

[00:26:40] Randi Rubenstein: See, that’s why I was like, Hmm, maybe that changes my narrative. you know, there’s so much that we can’t remember, especially when we went through a lot of trauma, you know, there was, you know, there can be a, I mean, for me there was a lot of repression, um, and, and, and a lot of memories have come back to me. Um, really, I would say in the last, um, 15 years. It only started about 15 years ago, I started to have really lucid dreams. And um, and so a lot of my memories, um, have it, I don’t, I think it just felt too unsafe to come back during my waking hours. And so they started coming back in my dreams, um, all kinds of things.

And, you know, now I have done a lot of dream decoding and I’ve even learned as a coach, how to do a lot of dream decoding. So I do that for myself a lot, um, because I know there’s so there’s just like, you know, 

[00:27:41] Eli Harwood: Yeah, it’s unconscious 

[00:27:42] Randi Rubenstein: like all

[00:27:42] Eli Harwood: processing, yeah.

[00:27:44] Randi Rubenstein: Well, and I mean, I don’t have anyone to answer. I mean, I don’t have anyone to answer these questions. Like I didn’t, I feel like my memories are, I did not have that person. I didn’t have a person. I don’t remember anyone ever making me feel like I could tell them about any issue I was having. 

So that really has, I mean, and I can talk about this now without even getting teary because I’ve like, this is just my story. And more than anything at this point, you know, 10 years ago, 12 years ago, 15 years ago, I, I wouldn’t, I would be bawling, crying right now. And there’s nothing wrong with that, but it was still too tender and like brand new news for me. But now at this point, I’m like, I’m like, you know, there’s so much I don’t remember, but based on my patterns, you know, I mostly have a curiosity based on my patterns, I would say that I got the message at a very, very young age that there was nobody. 

And I even have compassion for why there was nobody. Like not that I learned this firsthand, but I’ve just put puzzle pieces together. My mom was 21 when she had me, she already had my brother. My dad was going back and forth to, he was in, he was, you know, he was supposed to go to Vietnam and at the last minute he got sent to Korea. And so, he, they were young, they were 23 and 21. They had two kids. And when she was pregnant with me…

I mean, I think I have that, um, that, that wound that can happen, you know, the break in the bond, um, wound within, I learned this from a friend of mine who I did some sessions with on family con, she’s trained in family constellation work. And, um, when my mom was pregnant with me, when she was about eight months pregnant, her father died on the operating table at 59.

[00:29:45] Eli Harwood: Oh. Oh.

[00:29:46] Randi Rubenstein: So she’s 21. She’s got a, oh, she’s got a two year old. She’s about to have another baby. Her husband’s in Korea. Um, her mom who she’s, she’s been relying on as her safety net is now in grief because her, her husband, my grandmother’s husband abruptly dies. My mom was in deep grief when I was born. And so like, like there is, well, you know, my inner child wound wound that I know about is that I think I always felt like I was a little bit of a pain in the ass and I was I was annoying. Like, like,

[00:30:28] Eli Harwood: You were a burden. You were, 

[00:30:29] Randi Rubenstein: I was a burden. I was a burden. But I, but I also understand. Like now at this point. I was pissed.

[00:30:37] Eli Harwood: From from a human perspective. 

[00:30:38] Randi Rubenstein: about, yes. Yes, like I was pissed about it for years. So don’t think that I was always like, oh poor my mom I was like, what the fuck? You know, why was nobody, why was I, why was I a burden? And so I was pissed about it. But now I understand because now I’m at the place in my own healing that, okay now I it feels safe to look at her story. How could she have been anything other than that? Like I get it, right? But that early attachment wound, you know, my story really has been I don’t think I had anyone. I mean, I don’t remember having anyone. 

[00:31:18] Eli Harwood: You, you had a lot of healing. It’s, it’s interesting. I’m listening to you and I’m thinking about this. You know, it sounds like you’re, you had a avoidant experience and maybe some disorganized experiences, like some abuse and trauma. And so your healing process, I think has meant going from denial and, you know, repressed memory, to being very overwhelmed and flooded with memories and feeling states and awareness and all of that. So, my guess is, is that that rescuer stance for you is a little bit more about being a trauma survivor than what I mentioned earlier. 

So, what I mentioned earlier, we would call, like, a resistant pattern. Um, I think it’s probably more like you’re coming out of some really, really awful experiences. And so your brain is just in a safety mode and like a danger mode when your kids get vulnerable in some way. And so it’s like, I’ve got to, I’ve got to fix this. I got to save that because you’ve, you really needed someone to save you. Like literally

[00:32:20] Randi Rubenstein: Yeah. 

[00:32:21] Eli Harwood: You needed that. 

[00:32:22] Randi Rubenstein: Yeah. Yeah. Mm hmm.

[00:32:25] Eli Harwood: You know what I love? One, okay, one of the things I loved about writing this book was nuancing attachment is sometimes when you’re online and people are talking about attachment, it feels like, um, I don’t know, like take this quiz. What Harry Potter character are you like, what attachment pattern are you? And the reality of attachment is it’s incredibly complex. You know, we have, think about the number of interactions we have with our children and think about the number of people that are a part of our life as a child and a part of our children’s lives. 

Um, you know, so as you read this, the goal is not to go, which type and I, and what does that mean? The goal is to go, what happened in my life? Exactly the way you just did, Randi. Like what happened in my life and my story in my attachment relationships and how did that either lend me to feeling secure or insecure and what do I need to do in order to heal those things and learn more secure patterns for my kids? Does that make sense?

[00:33:22] Randi Rubenstein: Perfect sense. Yeah. Perfect sense. Yeah. I,

[00:33:26] Eli Harwood: And that’s what you’ve done. You know, you say you’re new to attachment, but it’s like, it’s almost like you, you are, you knew this in your bones. You’ve known this in your healing process. And now you’re reading this book and getting the language and the research and the labels to explain things you’ve already known, I think.

[00:33:42] Randi Rubenstein: Yeah, but I think getting the labels and the research, that I do think I knew in my bones, um, in some way, at varying degrees, just based on wherever I was as a human being, you know, growing, learning, healing, evolving. Um, I think having words, having, and it’s like, there’s something about,

[00:34:08] Eli Harwood: Yeah, I agree.

[00:34:09] Randi Rubenstein: this, you know, I found this also when I read, um, what’s her name? 

LINK – Adult Children of Emotionally Immature Parents book

[00:34:13] Randi Rubenstein: Um, the book called Lindsey, God, I can’t remember what her name is, but I talked about her on the podcast. Um, she read, she wrote a book called like adult children of emotionally immature

[00:34:25] Eli Harwood: hmm. Mm

[00:34:25] Randi Rubenstein: Yeah, or whatever.

[00:34:27] Eli Harwood: I don’t know her name, but I know the book.

[00:34:28] Randi Rubenstein: Yeah, it’s not a catchy name, but it’s a great book. And, and when I was told to read that book, I was like, I was my, one of my really good friends who’s a therapist, she’s like, read this one. And I was like, how much longer can I be reading about this shit? Like, I know, like, what is it going to tell? Like, I know my story. Like, this is, really. And she’s like, just read it. 

And I will tell you, there was something about hearing someone’s story that, that in whatever way felt like my own, and then to hear this clinician put it into language that I found incredibly healing. Because it was, it sort of feels like, and it’s the same with your book. It’s feels like the opposite of gaslighting. Right? Like I’m not crazy. These things happened and now I have this person who’s just succinctly described what I already felt to my bones and now I can understand it on a deeper level.

[00:35:32] Eli Harwood: I love it.

[00:35:34] Randi Rubenstein: So good. I mean, it’s so good. So 

[00:35:37] Eli Harwood: When we are growing up, the relationship between us and our children, we are actually helping them to form their ideas about their reality. Right? So if our child is saying, you know, you’re being mean mom and we’re like, no, I’m not, you’re being disobedient. We’re forming this narrative for them. And depending on who our child is, they might take that narrative on or they might just throw it back in our face. It depends on their personality. 

So when you’re in an insecure attachment legacy, the narrative is always being covered up with the coping patterns. So if you’re growing up with a caregiver who has a ton of anxiety, you know, that their reality is shaping your story about your reality. If you grow up with a caregiver who’s very dismissive of emotions and feelings, you know, that narrative of everything being fine is going to, you know, cover up some of the feeling states in your body that aren’t fine. 

And when you get into adulthood, there is sort of this like reveal process. And I think when you’re reading a book about attachment and specifically this book I wrote, Oh, like this makes more sense. This is the story my body was telling me, and it’s different than the story my family was telling me. And my family told me a different story because they didn’t know how to tell a secure story. 

And a secure story is not a hundred percent positive all the time. A secure story is, we can acknowledge what is true in a moment in a way that regulates the room. So if my kids are saying, mom, you’re being so mean, you know, sometimes I am. Sometimes I’m just cranky and I just don’t have the patience and I’m just, I will sometimes nuance what they’ve said because, you know, a four year old only has one word to say, ouch, which is mean, but I might say something like, Oh, okay. You’re right. I’m really not being very patient or I’m being kind of harsh. Or mommy needs a timeout for a minute, cause I’m just not using my kind words the way I want to. 

But that becomes their narrative so that as they grow up, you know, when we all talk about it again, they can be like, Oh my gosh, you all remember how intense mom was about spilling things on the living room rug. Right? And I’m like, yeah, I know that was a thing for me. I just could not handle rug spills. 

And I’m like, you know, but there’s not like a dissonance between their narrative and my narrative, because I’m okay with the fact that I’m not a perfect parent. I don’t need them to see me that way. I’m okay with the fact that their childhood isn’t perfect. I don’t need them to see it that way. And so we can share this narrative over time. And as they grow up, they won’t be going, wait, what? My childhood wasn’t perfect or wait, what? My parent was terrible. And I actually wasn’t that bad of a kid. You know, they’ll just be like, yeah, there was some days. Mom was great. She really loved us. And man, was she weird about X, Y, or Z, you know? And I’ll be like, yeah, that’s right. You’re not wrong.

[00:38:44] Randi Rubenstein: You’re not wrong. It’s so true. It’s so interesting. Like, I remember when my kids were little, um, like, sometimes when they would say like, you’re like, stop yelling at me. And,

[00:38:58] Eli Harwood: Mm hmm. Mm

[00:39:00] Randi Rubenstein: probably early on, I’d say like, I wasn’t yelling at you. Right? So I would sort of gaslight them. And, um, because I really did work hard not to be a yeller because I grew up with a lot of rage in my household. And so, so that, you know, when it was like, you know, little, much younger me, right. I was, I knew what yelling sounded like. I knew what screaming sounded like. And so to me, my perspective was you, are you

[00:39:31] Eli Harwood: That’s not what’s happening me? here. 

[00:39:32] Randi Rubenstein: Right? Like you don’t know yelling. And so, and like I’m keeping my shit together over here. And so. And so I, at first I would, I would argue and gaslight them. And then as I became like, you know, adolescent parent, me, I stopped arguing with it and I would, I would stop myself and I would say, was that, did that feel like yelling? And they would say, yeah, they would say, yeah. And I’m like, it was intense. It, did it scare you? And you know, and sometimes they would say, yeah. And I would say, okay, I’m really sorry for scaring you. I need to just chill for a minute. Like I was really upset. I’m, I’m upset. I’m annoyed. I’m whatever. And I need to just take a minute, you know?

[00:40:20] Eli Harwood: Well, and isn’t it interesting what, how beautiful thing you did, which is your kid’s understanding of yelling is very different than your understanding of, of a parent yelling. And how beautiful, how beautiful that they felt you were yelling at them in a situation you wouldn’t have seen that way because you had protected them from that generational experience of yelling and screaming at heightened overwhelm state.

And what they were trying to tell you is, I’m disconnected from you. You feel harsh or like, you know, intense, I love the word intense, in a way that’s dysregulating to me. Right. And then you learned how to recognize within your own body that. And not in a shaming way, in a, okay. Okay. I need something right now. I just, I love it so much. I hope you know this. It’s quite remarkable what you’ve come from and what you’ve done, my dear. 

[00:41:12] Randi Rubenstein: Thank you. Thank you. I’m just going to receive that. And, um, yeah, I’ve, I have, I have, I’ve devoted my entire adult life, I think, to doing this work and, um, and it, I mean, I think it’s why I’m so passionate about it because I kind of, I kind of feel like I’m like, if I can feel this much better in my body. And happier, not happy all the time, I mean, that’s for sure. But, but, but really it’s not even happier,

[00:41:49] Eli Harwood: Secure. I think the word secure is

[00:41:52] Randi Rubenstein: it’s, it is.

[00:41:53] Eli Harwood: so much. It’s like feeling secure. Like I can feel sad. I can feel joy. I can feel angry. I can feel frustration, but within all of those feelings, I am secure. I am worthy. I belong. It will be okay. I can figure it out. We can figure it out. I mean, that’s what we want for all of our kids to have.

And you, you have done what’s called earned secure attachment pattern. So you have analyzed and acknowledged and processed and grieved the insecure patterns you inherited growing up. And you’ve earned and learned how to have a secure mindset about your kids and their needs and your patterns with them, and then how to execute that mindset into patterns between you and them. 

I mean, it’s, it’s the hope, it’s the dream. It’s why I wrote this book. And yet you didn’t even really need the book. You just needed the book to validate that you did it right. But you really did this in a, in a beautiful way. And I’m so glad.

[00:42:47] Randi Rubenstein: I think it’s, I think, I think the learning about attachment and, becoming an attachment nerd myself. Now I’m going to be one of your disciples. Um, I think it’s also opening like the next level of healing for me because for me, um, as, you know, I think as an avoidant attachment person, um, there was so much locked away even in my body and, um, and, and so something also interesting has happened. 

I didn’t realize I had any anxiety until my son, who’s, it was probably two and a half, three years ago. Like absolutely didn’t know. I mean, knew that I woke up in the middle of the night, went through periods of time where I had some issues sleeping, like I’d fall asleep and then I had trouble, but I never associated it with anxiety until my youngest son started driving. And I was, I was, when he was getting his license, I had this weird feeling in my stomach and I, I thought, I didn’t know if I was getting sick. I, um, like I couldn’t figure it out and it wouldn’t go away and it wouldn’t go away. And then I realized, I think it’s anxiety. 

And and I actually have a theory, you know for years and years, not now for almost probably, I don’t know, eight, nine years. Um, but, but up until the last eight or nine years, I had this battle with closet smoking. And, um, like it was the monkey on my back, this, the monkey on my back from the time I was a young teenager until eight or nine years ago. 

And um, I mean I would go pure, you know, pregnancies without smoking, but man, I was, it was abstinent. It wasn’t like I was never truly a nonsmoker. It was my favorite thing. It was the thing I looked forward to. It was like I, I always knew I was like, I don’t just have an addiction. I have like a love affair with this. I mean, it was like, and, and shameful, like who the fuck wants to admit that? Right. 

But what I think it really was was I think it was a coping mechanism for anxiety because it’s inhales and exhales. Right. And, and, and so once this, once the smoking had been truly out of my life for long enough. Now, it’s like, I mean, because when I was stressed all the years past about whatever, I’m going to go and buy a sneaky pack of cigarettes and, and figure out when I can, you know? So now without it, I feel that anxiety. I realize, Oh my God, I think this is anxiety, but like it was so masked.

[00:45:44] Eli Harwood: Well, when you don’t have safe people in your development to help you label your feelings, notice your feelings and actually regulate your feelings. Which doesn’t mean shutting them down, it means letting them out enough that they pass. So if you don’t have that, you don’t actually have a lot of familiarity with your body states and with what they mean. Instead, you cope through numbing. Right. And so, you know, that was, that was your primary numbing tool was smoking, you know, and so it’s like you go and you, you take that hit, I mean, hits, I guess what we say about weed, but anyway, you take, you

[00:46:20] Randi Rubenstein: Puff. Yeah.

[00:46:22] Eli Harwood: Thank you. I don’t smoke either one. So I’m like, not cool enough. I’m like, how do I hold this in my hand? 

Anyway, you take that puff and it gives you that relief that you don’t know how to get in any other way. And so when you stop that numbing pattern, and this is true for a lot of people. I mean, I’ve known a lot of people in recovery from a lot of different things. And the hardest part of recovery, I think is not simply stopping the substance. It’s learning how to feel and learning how to tolerate what you feel.

[00:46:55] Randi Rubenstein: Yeah. Yeah. That’s been, that’s been a big one for me. And, and what I wasn’t expecting is that the more I feel, right, the more secure I feel to actually feel, the harder the feelings have been. Right? Like, like, like I had a, like where I have always been a person that has got it together. I’m like, you know, it’s fine. It’s fine. Nothing’s a big deal. 

And like, I had a total like crazy thing happened to me. Um, I think it was in January of this year and something triggered my brain. And I was, we were visiting my daughter in college, something triggered my brain. It was a simple, nothing kind of thing. And we were out to dinner and she was, um, she was just tired from the day and I’m her mom and she just did what, you know, kids do. And she was like, she was like, snap, you know, it’s just kind of snapping at me and whatever. 

And instead of being like enough, stop it. You know, like this is like, like, do we need to leave or what’s going on? But this is not fun. Like, instead of just handling it, I had a reaction in my body. And I literally, like the rest of the weekend for like two days, I had that feeling I’d had from when my son was turned 16, the anxiety feeling, but I couldn’t get rid of it. And I couldn’t get rid of it for over 48 hours. And I couldn’t stop crying.

[00:48:38] Eli Harwood: Oh, yes. So big because you, your, your body was communicating something to you, probably not just from the present moment, but from the past, but it was something you’d never had an opportunity to feel or feel through before.

[00:48:57] Randi Rubenstein: Well, it was,

[00:48:57] Eli Harwood: You’re left there with that going,

[00:48:59] Randi Rubenstein: Yeah, well, it was, it was really weird because it was like, I just had to feel it for like, those. I mean, I was, I w you know, the rest of the vacation, I was like, basically like I, and, and it was, I knew, it was free, you know, my husband was great. He was really like, but it was out of character for me. So like, you know, everyone was like, you know, what’s going on with her. 

But they just kind of like, yeah, but they just kind of like gave me my space and everybody’s old enough. My daughter was, you know, 22 at the time and, and she just, you know, they just kind of like honored that whatever was going on was going on. It was something that was a very out of character, had never happened to me before any time in my life. 

But after I took those 48 hours or whatever to just like allow it. not push it away, allow it. Um, a memory came back and, and it was, so it was like a memory from when I was probably, and I asked my brother about it and it was a memory of when we had been out to dinner, I was probably around six. And, and, you know, and so it was like my dad lost his temper at a restaurant and it was my brother remembered parts of this story. 

So there was something about her sort of losing her temper towards me at a restaurant and it, and I think it finally felt safe enough in my body to like, it was like I had to feel it to be able to like then connect the dots and release it. And it was, it was a really like out of body experience, but I was totally in my body. If that makes sense.

[00:50:47] Eli Harwood: Well, yeah. So I mean, that was a like kind of textbook post traumatic stress disorder response. So our brain, when we go through a traumatic experience, our brain logs the sensory details around that experience as a way to try to protect us from that happening again in our lives. But it doesn’t save it necessarily in a memory form. It saves it more in a sensory form. We call them body memories. 

So like, if you go and you eat a pink berry in the woods. And that pink berry ends up giving you, you know, a terrible sickness and you get hives and you throw up and you have all these sensations, your brain will store the itchy feelings. It will store that sense of nausea. It will store all of that and it will wait until you see another pink berry. And It might not be the same pink berry, but your brain’s like, that’s pink. It’s a berry. Here we go, folks. 

And all of a sudden you you’re itching and you’re nauseous, but you don’t know why, because you’re not, your brain isn’t saying pink berry alert. You’re not hearing it cognitively. It’s just a sensory response. And so you hadn’t yet had an experience where you’re in a restaurant and someone’s angry at you. And it’s a family member angry at you to send that flood through your body, but that’s what happened. And you got flooded. 

And what you did so beautifully is you tolerated the feeling, like, you didn’t try to numb them out. You let it happen. And you allowed yourself to sort of listen to the whisper. Sensations in your body’s long enough that your brain said, let me tell you about the last, or maybe the most important time you felt this. And then you’re back at that berry bush. And you’re like,

[00:52:30] Randi Rubenstein: Yeah.

[00:52:32] Eli Harwood: this is. And this is why I feel this way.

And what’s so cool is then your brain goes, Oh, this is the difference between that pink berry and this pink berry. The difference is I was a child and I had no safety or security in that relationship. And my dad really was scary and overwhelming. And this, this pink berry has ridges because this pink berry is my daughter was angry, but I’m the parent and I’m safe. And I can handle it. 

And so now your brain knows the difference. And so then hopefully the next time you see the pink berry of your daughter angry at you at a restaurant, your brain won’t flood because it will have Nuanced and noticed the ripples in this pink berry that make it very different than the poisonous pink berry.

[00:53:12] Randi Rubenstein: Yeah. Yeah. I, thank you for synthesizing that. Um, it was a, it was, it was a wild. Yeah, it was a, it was a wild experience and it was a hard experience. It really was. It was a very, it was a vulnerable, it was a vulnerable experience too because I, you know, deep down I was like, Oh God, I’m probably freaking her out. I’m probably freaking everyone out. And I had always, you know, been like, like, like I gotta be the mom, I gotta be the mom. 

And then like, I kept having to remind myself like, she’s 22. And um, and like you take care of you right now. Like I really, you, it’s the, yeah, it was the first time as a mom, I remember like really saying like, you do you right now. And I, um, and that was hard. It was, it was really hard.

[00:54:08] Eli Harwood: Of course.

[00:54:09] Randi Rubenstein: Yeah.

[00:54:09] Eli Harwood: I’m so proud of you. Like just, you did, yes, you’ve got through it and what an incredible healing moment. And you know, when we, when I wrote the book, I wrote the book on purpose in, in a way to help any parent at any stage. I’m, my kids are four and I have four and a half twins. And I have a nine and a half year old. So I’m in a different, very different phase of parenting than you are. But at the end of the day, what my kids need from me is very similar to what your kids need from you. 

Now it’s different on like a daily patterned level, but on an attachment level, it’s, can you mom, dad, parent, be secure enough in yourself, connected enough in your emotions, and available enough to me as a child, as a teen, as an adult child, that I can utilize your presence as a regulating resource in my life as I figure things out. Right? 

And so you’re, you’re, you’re doing that with your kids. I’m doing that with my kids. If you had had that same panic attack, you know, PTSD response when your kids were four, five, six, seven, you know, they might’ve been a little more alarmed by it than your adults kids were. But if you had done the work you just did and 48 hours later gotten that insight, it would have still been okay. Your kids would be okay. I mean, because that, that would just fall into that 70 percent of time where you weren’t… 

You know, if it would be more traumatic if you had maybe, you know, stood on the table and started taking your clothes off or, you know, like there, there obviously are certain levels of trauma response that might cause some trauma for our kids, but we’re also wired to heal from trauma. And so our kids, so if we can face something and we can acknowledge it and we can grieve it, we can move through it. So can our kids. And that’s what we want to be doing together.

[00:56:00] Randi Rubenstein: I actually think that experience is what led me to the, to learning about attachment. Because I signed up for this class, this nervous system class. Once I had that experience, I signed up for a nervous system class and, and then ultimately that led me to learning more about attachment. And, at which I’m in, you know, you’re an attachment nerd. You’re like PhD level. I’m like maybe in kindergarten

[00:56:28] Eli Harwood: Well, I don’t have a PhD by the way. I have a master’s degree, so…

[00:56:30] Randi Rubenstein: But I I would say PhD level about attachment though because this is all my metaphor this is my metaphor I’m not really in kind. I’m not really in kindergarten. But I will say my daughter, it did freak her out, right? Like we, it, it did freak her out. And, um, and we definitely have had to go through some healing work between the two of us. Just, it did freak her out. It was like. Um, I

[00:57:02] Eli Harwood: It was, it was, it was disturbing. That was a disturbing experience.

[00:57:06] Randi Rubenstein: It was disturbing and, um, and me prioritizing me. Because I also then for the next two weeks, like I really just like had to kind of go in and like I had to, I had to be my own mother first and foremost. And I, and in her 22 years, she really had never experienced that. 

And so, you know, so there was, I would say we had a few months of, um, of really kind of working through and processing that. But the interesting thing that I think has now, like I can now look at it is, I think by me going through that and then us processing it together and having real and honest and vulnerable conversations, me sharing what I’m learning about attachment, um, me talking about my own attachment patterns, um, I think we’ve gotten even closer because we’ve, she’s started talking even more about like, you know, like anxiety has become more of a conversation between us because I’ve experienced it too now. You know?

[00:58:15] Eli Harwood: I love this. Well, and you recalibrated, right? So the thing happened and you took that instead of going into a catastrophic place of, I’ve ruined my kids. I’ve created this trauma. I’m a terrible mom. This is bad. You were like, what is this telling me? You went into a curiosity stance. What is this telling me? What does this mean? And then you invited your daughter into an authentic age appropriate exploration of that. And the two of you got to recalibrate some awareness and meaning about your relationship, which is very positive. 

You know, things have to change when our children become adults, right? Things have to change when our children go from six to eight or from eight to 12. Things change always in the parent child relationship. Like that’s the only thing that’s static is that it’s always changing. And so we’re adapting based on what our nervous system and their nervous system are capable of and need. 

And I’m just, I think you did such a good job. And I think that’s just a really great example of how secure parenting is not perfect parenting. It is not pain free, suffering free, messy free. It is, we always come back to connection. We return to connection and we repair what it is that’s gotten us off the tracks so that our kids can sense we can be there for them. 

[00:59:30] Randi Rubenstein: Yeah. Yeah. Thank you. Thank you for that. Well, as we wrap up, I think I heard an interview with you where I heard you describe the different forms of attachment and you, you use sort of like, um, like an animal metaphor.

[00:59:52] Eli Harwood: Hmm. Mm hmm. Yes.

[00:59:54] Randi Rubenstein: Do you mind doing that here?

[00:59:57] Eli Harwood: Let’s do it. This will be, I love this. I love ending on this.

[00:59:59] Randi Rubenstein: Okay. Perfect.

[01:00:01] Eli Harwood: Okay. So as relational creatures, If we have a person we can rely on, our pattern will be secure. And I call that the koala. So in childhood, that koala is like hanging on its mama, climbing through the branches, that proximity, that sense of chill connection, but closeness.

Then if you don’t have a caregiver who can do that consistently. So they do it every once in a while, but not enough. Well, then you become hyper vigilant because that’s the way to stay as close as possible to someone who isn’t predictable in their availability to you. And so you become the honey badger. You’re always looking for more honey. How are you there? Are you still there? Do you love me? Do you still love me? Do you let me know? Do you let me know? And, and even though that’s a painful state later on in life, it’s adaptive in that childhood situation. Because if you have a parent who isn’t reliable, you keep your eyes on them so that you know, right where they are, just in case they aren’t there when you need them.

The third one is when you have caregivers who are consistently unable to be there for you. So they might be highly anxious or they might be highly disconnected, but no matter what, you cannot get your needs met emotionally from them. Then you become the turtle. You learn how to stick your head inside your shell when life gets tender and emotional so that no one knows what’s going on because you don’t want to burden people.

And you know that it actually feels worse to reach for people in pain because you’ll either get dismissed or flooded with their anxiety or emotion. So you learn how to handle things inside and you build that shell up and you’ve got your little internal shelter and you just stay there and wait for the storm to pass. And then you come back up. 

And the last one is if you grow up in a situation where your caregivers are frightening to you, you learn to become what I call the baby dragon. So you get scales on and you also learn to breathe fire. Because when you feel tender is when you also feel in danger. And so when you are feeling tender, you tend to either blow up or shut down, right? Scale up or send that fire out because it is too scary to be exposed during a moment of vulnerability. Those are the animals.

[01:02:12] Randi Rubenstein: Hmm. That’s so good. And if you, if you gave the clinical terms for each animal,

[01:02:18] Eli Harwood: okay. So the koala is secure. Yep. So the koala is a secure pattern in a relationship. The honey badger, we call a resistant or ambivalent pattern in a relationship, in childhood, we have all these different terms. In adulthood, we call it preoccupied. Um, sometimes people affiliate that with the idea of an anxious attachment. Um, but that’s from a different body of research. It’s a little bit confusing. I would like to say that anything that isn’t secure is anxious. So I don’t label one of those anxious. Um, the turtle, we would call avoidant attachment in childhood, and we would call it dismissive attachment in adulthood. And then the baby dragon, we would call disorganized in childhood and unresolved in adulthood.

[01:03:07] Randi Rubenstein: Yeah. That’s funny. Cause when you were going through them, I was like, when I heard the turtle, I was like, that tracks. But then when I heard the dragon, I was like a little bit of that tracks, more of the turtle tracks, but a little, and you said, I think you would be a combination of avoidant and disorganized and that. Yeah.

[01:03:25] Eli Harwood: Yep. Well, and, and what, what, again, what we think about is we have different relationships. So like either, you know, that avoidant, that disorganized dragon piece may have come up with a raging father, you know, that had you just had your mother, maybe that wouldn’t have been what you experienced. Right?

So, you know, it’s, it is, it is nuanced and it is complex and our patterns change based on the relationships we’re in. So you may notice yourself having a more avoidant pattern with one of your children and a more preoccupied pattern with another child. And that’s because of what they’re activating in you. And that’s why it’s so important to do the story work that you have done and modeled so beautifully in this episode for people.

[01:04:03] Randi Rubenstein: Oh my gosh. This is such a perfect, I, I love the way you just gave that those animal terms to me because koala, honey badger, uh, turtle, dragon. Like now I have terms to use with these different attachment patterns that make sense to me.

[01:04:21] Eli Harwood: Oh, I’m so glad.

[01:04:23] Randi Rubenstein: Yeah, your book’s so good. Everyone needs to read it. We’re going to link to it in the show notes and I am a super fan forever and I just thank you for doing this powerful work. It’s really amazing.

[01:04:38] Eli Harwood: Ditto on all of that.

[01:04:41] Randi Rubenstein: Okay. Thanks everyone. Thanks for listening. See you soon. 

Thanks for listening today, guys. I hope you picked up some tips, tools, maybe some baby steps for creating more balance and boundaries in your life. And I just wanted to let you know, if you want to continue moving the needle forward in creating this for yourself, having a happier household, I want you to go to my website and check out mastermindparenting.com. We have three beginning programs, and if you need some accountability and more support then please look for the one that would be a good fit for you.

And, as always, we’re on all the social channels under Mastermind Parenting, on Instagram it’s mastermind_parenting. And, you know, periodically I do pop up on different Instagram lives, Facebook lives where I give you teaching and coaching and I love engaging with you live to help you help your strong-willed kids so that they can feel better, because when they feel better they do better, and I love, love, love getting to know you guys. 

So thanks for listening. If you like this podcast, please don’t forget to subscribe, rate and review. Super, super appreciative.