305: Helpful Kids Without Power Struggles (a conversation with Michaeleen Doucleff)

[00:00:00] Randi Rubenstein: My name is Randi Rubenstein, and welcome to the Mastermind Parenting Podcast. At Mastermind Parenting, we’re on a mission to support strong-willed kids and the families that love them. 

Hi, my friends, if you haven’t listened to last week’s episode, I want you to pause this and go back and listen to part one of my conversation with Michaeleen Doucleff, author of Hunt, Gather, Parent. And this is part two, where we talk about the new book she’s writing, all about technology and dopamine and tech addiction and all the things. You’ll hear me share some real life stories about, um, how I handle just like a day in the life with my actual humans in their early twenties who have, you know, who struggle with all of this, you know? I’m on the apps too much. I’m deleted the apps, I’m reinstalled the apps, and you get to hear Michaeleen’s opinion. 

And, um, yeah, she, you know, she’s writing a book, so she’s like knee deep in all the research. And she also has a almost nine year old. So Rosie’s now almost nine. And so she’s not where I am. I’ve, you know, young adult grown children, almost one, not fully grown, but two of them are kind of grown. Um, and their life is their life. And we’re a family that talks about all the things and I’m not going to judge them or try to control them.

This is our life, right? Like we live right now at a time where the legislation doesn’t exist yet to hold these tech companies accountable and, um, they’re psychological wizards and they know how to, you know, it’s easy to fall down that rabbit hole of I’m on it and I’m on it and I’m on it. I mean. Let’s just talk about Tik Tok. So, um, so I do share some real life stories of, you know, the conversations with my kids and, and how, what they kind of sound like, and there really is no judgment from me.

I’m just, you know, in many ways I think with my young adult children, it feels sort of amazing to be that adult, to be that parent that I didn’t have at that age, right? Like to have kids that come and talk to me about the, the real life struggles. And to feel like they can tell me and to know that like, I’m not going to tell them what they should do. And I’m not going to judge them or shame them. Like, I’m just sort of here for them. Um, and they don’t have to be all alone in whatever it is they’re going through.

So, we, we dug into that a bit and we just had a lively conversation. So enjoy part two of my most recent conversation with Michaeleen Doucleff.

 When I was reading all those books and trying to learn as much as I could, and they were helpful for me, I really was educating myself. And so I, I appreciate that those books are out there and I appreciate the parenting books are out there. I just think that people need to read, they’re, it’s almost like they need to have like, you know, whatever the little disclaimer. Like, please please be prepared to do none of this when your kid annoys the shit out of you. Like I mean, it’s like when real life moments happen Because I just think that that shame spiral that ensues for most people is super destructive.

[00:04:00] Michaeleen Doucleff: yeah. But that again is the, I think that’s kind of built into the system though in some ways, right, Randi? Because like, if you have a script, and you have this person telling you what’s right, that’s kind of the whole thing of shame. Right? I mean, it’s kind of, right? You have to have a book that’s, that’s looking more at the kind of roots causes and the bigger picture. Right? And, versus like, this is what you do, right? This is the right way. 

I mean, that’s one of the huge criticisms of Western parenting, throughout time, in the later, throughout the last couple hundred years, is that there’s this right way to do it. And anything that breaks out of that right way is wrong and going to hurt your child. Right? And I think a lot of cross cultural parenting is like, in the last 10, 20, 20 years is coming in and saying, no, there’s many ways this can be done. And many times, it can have just as good of a better of a, of a outcome, right? 

To me, that was one of the most freeing things about, like, cross culture parenting was like, whoa, whoa, whoa, there’s like, there’s not a right way? No, there’s not a right way, you know, there’s things that every culture does on a very broad level, but how they go about doing it is all over the map, and it’s,

[00:05:24] Randi Rubenstein: Yeah. In Tanzania, in Tanzania, they’re going, uh, uh, uh. That’s my

[00:05:31] Michaeleen Doucleff: I was just, I was, I was just talking about going back there. I think in two years, we’ll go back there, but,

[00:05:37] Randi Rubenstein: I want to go with you. I want to

[00:05:39] Michaeleen Doucleff: uh, I, I

[00:05:41] Randi Rubenstein: have to, I have to, I have to hear them say, call you. Wait a bit. What is it?

It’s my favorite part of your whole book. Like that, I mean. Yes. It made me laugh so much. I do. And whenever I hear something that I love, that just like gets me, I feel like, like in a movie or whatever, I have to like rewind and rewind and rewind. So I was like listening to that part over and over again. And cause I read it, I read your book and then I was listening to it. And I was like playing that part for Avery. I was like, Avery, you got to hear this part. Cause she was like, what are you laughing so much at? I was like, you got to hear this. It’s, it’s the best. It’s the best. 

[00:06:18] Michaeleen Doucleff: Such great people, it’s like, I don’t know if I told you this story, I don’t tell many people this story, but I gave like a massive chunk of money to them because like I gave back like a, like a basically half of what I made off that book. And I sent it at the end of 2020 and they make a lot of their money off of tourism. And they’d had no tourism during 2020. So the guy I sent it to, I, and I didn’t know this and he wrote me back and he was like, we were sitting there being like, what are we going to do? We have no money for next year. 

Like, because they, they have this, this trust fund to protect their land that they basically like pay for and stuff. So it doesn’t, it’s not money directly to them. It’s to protect their hunting land. And so he wrote back and he was like, and then your check arrived. And so he was like, I know, I know. I was like. And he was like, you can come back any time, right? Like, I didn’t know that, right. I didn’t know, you know, I knew it was just for their land, but I thought maybe they had an endowment or something, but it all came from the tourist money. And so anyway,

[00:07:26] Randi Rubenstein: Let me just say this. That’s why your book is so freaking good, because you truly did write it for the right reasons.

[00:07:34] Michaeleen Doucleff: I didn’t wanna make off of them.

[00:07:38] Randi Rubenstein: No, that, just that alone, that story alone and you being you. I mean, of course you sent them half of what you made off the book, like, but of course, and, but of course they happened to be struggling and were just wondering where they were going to get money from. Like, that’s like some divine intervention shit.

[00:07:58] Michaeleen Doucleff: I mean, it felt that way. It was like.

[00:08:01] Randi Rubenstein: hmm.

[00:08:01] Michaeleen Doucleff: Like, it was like, wow, this is, but again, this comes back or just take it back to purpose and meaning.

[00:08:07] Randi Rubenstein: Mm

[00:08:08] Michaeleen Doucleff: Right? Like that, that is what makes me feel good at the end of the day. That’s what like makes me work hard. That’s what like fills me with serotonin and oxytocin and like these wonderful, uh, feelings and satisfaction.

Not the book, not the money from the book, not the, I mean, to feed my family, but not the attention, right? Like, it’s because I had an opportunity to help them and I took it and then it was, it was valued, right? And, and I felt grateful, right? They, they, they, they had gratitude back and, and like, this is the cycle. 

[00:08:46] Randi Rubenstein: But you also. Yeah, but it it’s it’s super aligned in my opinion because you also wrote the book because you, you weren’t like, oh okay, I’m just I just have my journalist hat on and I think this will be not only a good story but this will be a good book. You were like, I just got an internship in parenting. Right, from these three different cultures and I learned, you know, I say in the book I wrote, I say like, I’m a chocolate cake sharer.

Like if I’m eating a delicious piece of chocolate cake, like I’m like, have a fork, have a fork, eat off my fork. Like it’s better. It’s more delicious. We need to all eat this together. And, you too. It’s like, you’re like, I just, this, these people just blew my mind and just taught me all that I was doing wrong and why my kid was acting like a disaster. And now it’s so different and everyone needs to learn this. Like you’d came from, I mean, it was all from a place of integrity, you know?

[00:09:49] Michaeleen Doucleff: Yeah. And like, maybe that’s what I’m trying to get at it. Like, there’s a lot of chocolate cake sharers, children, that aren’t being allowed to share their cake.

[00:09:58] Randi Rubenstein: That’s right.

[00:09:59] Michaeleen Doucleff: I see it, Randi. I see it here in our school that I bring a kid in that’s like really struggling and really misbehaving and really like, and I give him a purpose, or her purpose. and I make it clear that I value what they’re doing and the behavior turns.

[00:10:18] Randi Rubenstein: So good. You know, if I think, if I think about, like without realizing that I was doing that, you know, when Alec was little and he was really, you know, he was, he was hard. He was different levels of hard over the years, but the first seven years of his life were pretty hard. Just a more, more in the, in Eeyore mode than not a lot, especially once, like after a long day of school, like he’d hold it together at school and then he’d come home and he’d be in, he was just zapped. His nervous system was just zapped. And when, you know, so Alec was a week before turning eight when Corey was born. 

[00:10:59] Michaeleen Doucleff: Mm. 

[00:11:00] Randi Rubenstein: When Corey was born, Scott, like Scott was a two kid guy. He was like, why on earth would we ever have a third child? Like, are, are you, did you like all of a sudden become mormon or some other religion that has like tons of kids or Orthodox or what? Like, why do we need more than a boy and a girl? I’m not understanding this. And so, so Scott agreeing to have Corey was like, I like to say I had to like sign my name in blood.

and one of the things was, was he was like, I want us to have more help around the house. Like you, you and three kids and three kids and three different, you know, like I’m, I’m going to come home later and you’re going to be stressed out of your mind. And so you’ve got, you’ve got to have a regular babysitter.

I know it’s a such a freaking first world problem. I’m sure people are listening, going, Oh, poor you. It wasn’t poor me. He’s great. He was, he was recognizing like, you need some, we will pay someone to be your alloparent, basically. 

[00:11:58] Michaeleen Doucleff: You need alloparents, yes. I mean, that is alloparents in our society. It’s paid, so yes.

[00:12:03] Randi Rubenstein: Yes, that’s what he was saying. Like you need an alloparent. So, so we were, so anyway, I like to joke that we went through like 27 people in the first six months of Corey’s life. Like, and this bitch doesn’t have a problem firing people. Let me just say that. Like, I’m like, you’re

[00:12:21] Michaeleen Doucleff: There’s the pack leadership!

[00:12:24] Randi Rubenstein: Yeah, to be a good pack leader, you got to be really good at firing

[00:12:26] Michaeleen Doucleff: I didn’t a turtle there, Randi. I didn’t see a turtle.

[00:12:30] Randi Rubenstein: That might have been my dragon. Um, yeah, maybe the combination. I mean, and so I

[00:12:37] Michaeleen Doucleff: Everybody has it in them. Everyone has it in them.

[00:12:41] Randi Rubenstein: So when I, you know, I was so picky about people. So freaking picky. And, um, and if I’m going to leave my little teeny tiny baby that can’t even speak, like I have to, you know, so I kept going through so many different people. So then I said to Alec. Cause Alec would tell me, I would have Alec, you know, Alec always knew adults. He was always a great judge of character. He knew about teachers. He’s just a highly sensitive person. So he was such a good read on people. 

So I said to Alec, that’s it, you’re doing the interviews with me because a lot of times I see in gray. But you see in black and white, like you very clearly always know great person, not great person. And I ended up having Alec, like that was his, like, that was part of his purpose was I was like, I need

[00:13:35] Michaeleen Doucleff: Absolutely.

[00:13:36] Randi Rubenstein: I need you. And I’ll tell you something I would say to this day, like he always, that was part of his identity. He was like,

[00:13:45] Michaeleen Doucleff: Right.

[00:13:46] Randi Rubenstein: And he was like, yeah, how, how could you not have seen that that person turned out to be a complete liar and a two faced, you know, friend? Like I saw that in that person years ago. I was like, you did? Why didn’t you tell me? He’s like, I mean, I don’t think you were ready to hear it yet. You know? And, and that did give him some purpose, I think.

[00:14:05] Michaeleen Doucleff: I think what I see in in parents and what I’ve learned because I mean, I talked to lots of parents now, right? And like I do all these parenting podcasts and and what I’ve experienced myself with my taking care of my mom.

It’s probably the worst thing that a parent can do, to a child, I think in this, what we’re talking about in this, like, helping, not helping. There’s one thing not to allow the children to help, I think, or not give them opportunities to help and nurture that in them and give them purpose. And that’s, I think we can, in Western society, we can all get better at that. There’s just no doubt in my mind. We all can get better at this. You maybe do some of it, but we can all improve. There’s no doubt. 

But I think there’s also a tendency with some parents to actually not see when the child is helping,

[00:15:00] Randi Rubenstein: Mm hmm.

[00:15:01] Michaeleen Doucleff: Because it can be very small. It can be very subtle. And one of the women that studies, um, the Maya community that I was in, and in Yucatan, she said this to me in an interview and I, it went over me, but I’ve listened to her interview so many times that I, like, finally started to understand what she was saying to me.

And she’s actually studied, like, European, American parents versus Maya parents and kind of how they perceive children’s actions. And she says that a lot of the things that the parents, the Maya moms will say, one of the questions she asks them is like, what did they do to help? Did they ever voluntarily help? And the Maya parents will list off things. And then in the, the European. American, I should say, no, they never, most of them say no, they don’t volunteer help.

But then she told me, she said that one day I was like looking at these two lists or I was looking at this list. And I was, and I realized, I don’t think the American parents would see these things. And so now, you say, well, who cares? You don’t see like a tiny thing. It’s that these are small things, right? And, and I wasn’t seeing Rosie’s small things until I opened my eyes to it. 

But what I’ve learned living next to my mom is that my mom never sees any of it. You know, it’s, well, what’s kind of next? Or, can you help me here? Or there’s just, and I’m telling you, Randi, it is so hurtful to be sharing the cake and either have the person say, I don’t want the cake. No, thank you. Or to not even see you sharing the cake.

[00:16:38] Randi Rubenstein: Mm hmm. Mm

[00:16:40] Michaeleen Doucleff: And value that. I think that this crushes kids because I think it crushed me. And I think it’s like, because we perceive children as these need things that need us, need our attention, need, need, need, right? That’s the whole thing out there right now is like, there’s a need that they need me to do something. We miss the fact that they’re actually helping us and trying to help us and they want to feel needed by us.

[00:17:11] Randi Rubenstein: Mm hmm. Mm

[00:17:12] Michaeleen Doucleff: And we’re not seeing it. And I just I I know how it crushes me when my mom at 48 when my mom doesn’t see what I’m doing so I can just imagine that

[00:17:21] Randi Rubenstein: Give one, will you give one little example of like something recently that she just didn’t see?

[00:17:27] Michaeleen Doucleff: I mean for example

[00:17:29] Randi Rubenstein: Mm

[00:17:30] Michaeleen Doucleff: Like, Two nights ago, We made it. I made it. We made dinner. Rosie and I made dinner for everybody. We walked over, we to her house. She lives across the street. We helped her walk over. We helped her sit down. We helped her get in the chair. We got her water. We like, um, you know, that morning I brought her breakfast or Rosie did was a lot. Matt does a lot. It’s a, it’s a coordinated effort. It’s a, it’s a definitely a team work when I say we, it’s all of us. I walk her back to the house, helping her get, get ready, do, you know, kind of switch out her oxygen. 

So I go back, we’re at her house and then I kid you not, Randi. Okay. She starts telling me stuff to do. Oh, can you go, like, do this? Can you Oh, but don’t put it there. Don’t put the wire there. Like, I’m helping her fix her oxygen, and she’s bossing me around. So I can imagine in my mind, as a small little girl, me trying to help her in my clumsy way, and she’s bossing me around. Can you imagine how that feels? And I said, Mom, please don’t, this is disrespectful. I said, this is disrespectful. I’m helping you and you’re bossing me around. Like, this is really disrespectful. And she said, well, I just need your help, Michaeleen.

[00:18:53] Randi Rubenstein: That’s so good. That’s so good that you were like, this is disrespectful.

[00:18:58] Michaeleen Doucleff: And, but then she said, I need your help, Michaeleen. Do you understand what this statement is saying?

[00:19:03] Randi Rubenstein: Mhm, 

[00:19:04] Michaeleen Doucleff: It’s completely unseeing.

[00:19:08] Randi Rubenstein: Mhm.

[00:19:09] Michaeleen Doucleff: Not even, just completely not even seeing it. All of the stuff my family has done for her.

[00:19:16] Randi Rubenstein: hmm.

[00:19:17] Michaeleen Doucleff: Basically implying that I was, that I wasn’t helping her.

[00:19:21] Randi Rubenstein: Mm 

[00:19:21] Michaeleen Doucleff: And I said to her, I said, Mom, I am helping you. I walked out the door, it was done. And the next day I came there in the afternoon and she was The point being, is

[00:19:36] Randi Rubenstein: And then, and when you, when you came the next day, what did, did she say anything?

[00:19:42] Michaeleen Doucleff: No. And I didn’t, I wasn’t there to argue with her. It’s

[00:19:45] Randi Rubenstein: Yeah.

[00:19:46] Michaeleen Doucleff: and she, basically everything that she did with me at 48. Is exactly what Lucia Alcala, the woman who studies European American parents and was telling me that the parents can’t see what the children are doing to try, try to help. They’re small things.

[00:20:07] Randi Rubenstein: Mm hmm.

[00:20:08] Michaeleen Doucleff: Right, I can go back and grab the list, but she was like, I don’t think American parent would like, notice this or. 

[00:20:15] Randi Rubenstein: Hmm. Mm 

[00:20:16] Michaeleen Doucleff: So one parent I was helping the other day. She said that the children just never help. They never and I was like, really, they really never do anything helpful. 

[00:20:25] Randi Rubenstein: hmm. 

[00:20:26] Michaeleen Doucleff: And she was like, well, you know, when we’re in the grocery store, they quickly help me put all the stuff on to the conveyor belt because they think it’s fun. And I was like. Ding, ding, ding, ding, ding. And I said, do you thank them for that? Do you acknowledge that they’ve done this? No, because they’re doing it because it’s fun.

[00:20:47] Randi Rubenstein: Yeah, I knew I, I knew, yeah,

[00:20:49] Michaeleen Doucleff: They’re not. Yes, they are doing it because it’s fun, but they are also helping you. Right, so it’s a perception of the child. Now, come back to the 48 year old Michaeleen, how does this make me feel, to be treated this way? I’m putting the groceries on the conveyor belt, and my mom is saying, I need your help! Or like, you’re doing it because it’s fun. It’s

[00:21:15] Randi Rubenstein: It doesn’t count. Right. It doesn’t count because you’re, because you’re doing it for you. You’re doing it because it, because it’s fun.

[00:21:22] Michaeleen Doucleff: So let’s go back to what we talked about earlier, that we think helping is a sacrifice. It only counts if it’s a sacrifice. 

[00:21:32] Randi Rubenstein: That’s right. That’s right.

[00:21:35] Michaeleen Doucleff: You didn’t believe me when I said that, but you just confirmed it. And, therefore, it’s actually, though, helping the person that’s doing the helping, and it feels good. And it, why couldn’t, shouldn’t it be fun? In fact, if it’s fun, you light up the whole dopamine circuitry, and you want to keep doing it. And you find it rewarding and 

[00:21:56] Randi Rubenstein: But 

[00:21:56] Michaeleen Doucleff: you start to learn in life that helping gives you joy. And in fact, that’s how you build strong relationships.

[00:22:02] Randi Rubenstein: But it’s also like what about just being an appreciative, grateful person? Right. And saying like, regardless of whether the person meant to help you, like who cares what their intent was? 

[00:22:17] Michaeleen Doucleff: No, exactly! 

[00:22:19] Randi Rubenstein: Right. If somebody does something that’s helpful, like be the kind of person that says, wow, that was so helpful. Thank you so much for doing that regardless of whether they meant to help you or not.

[00:22:29] Michaeleen Doucleff: Especially if it’s your children,

[00:22:31] Randi Rubenstein: Right.

[00:22:32] Michaeleen Doucleff: because they’re, they really want to help Taylor Swift. They really want to help you. They need to help you. It is a primal need to help your family.

[00:22:41] Randi Rubenstein: Yeah.

[00:22:42] Michaeleen Doucleff: And if we don’t see it, because we think children don’t want to do it. They want to play on video games. They want to play. They don’t, they want to, they only want us to need them or they only want them to need us. We crush them. I’m telling you, we crushed some of them because 

[00:22:59] Randi Rubenstein: wait, 

[00:22:59] Michaeleen Doucleff: it crushes me. 

[00:23:02] Randi Rubenstein: but I do, something that went through my head. If we only think that help counts, if it’s a sacrifice, then it sort of turns the child being helpful. Into a power struggle because,

[00:23:19] Michaeleen Doucleff: Yes! Exact, that, that’s the point. Then that’s exactly right. We, if we change her, I mean, this is what I was trying to say in section one of the book, if we change our perspective on what the help is, then it becomes a gift to the child.

[00:23:32] Randi Rubenstein: It’s a gift. It’s a gift. 

[00:23:34] Michaeleen Doucleff: It’s a gift and you know how good it would feel the gift my mom would give me if she, she tries and she says, thank you, Michaeleen. And I’m so thankful for everything you do. And she’s really trying, but she’s still like stuck in this, like, mode that the children are like, I don’t know. But if we switch that perspective on what help is, then it becomes easy. It becomes a gift. It becomes something they want to do. They become something. 

They’re already doing, but you’re not seeing it. I’m telling you most, most parents, because I see it and I didn’t see it. And it becomes a completely different thing. And it, it fills this need we have. And it’s, I think it really is like when we go around saying, like, we see each other, it’s really seeing what the person is contributing

[00:24:27] Randi Rubenstein: Mm hmm.

[00:24:27] Michaeleen Doucleff: to your pack, to your team. Right. And, and yeah, there’s no power struggle because one, you’re seeing what they want, how they want to help you.

[00:24:38] Randi Rubenstein: Hmm. Mm

[00:24:39] Michaeleen Doucleff: Right? It’s not you controlling the help so much, it’s them, Accommodito. It’s them bringing their desire. Right. And so there’s no power struggle there. And two, it’s, it’s, it makes them feel good. There’s no power struggle there, right? It’s like really, I mean, this whole idea of like, helping is a sacrifice, really flips us around. Helping is a sacrifice, and two, children don’t want to help. 

And three, I would say, their, what their actions are is not, is them not trying to help. I don’t know if I’ve told you the story of the little girl folding, balling up the clothes.

[00:25:14] Randi Rubenstein: Mm. I don’t think so.

[00:25:16] Michaeleen Doucleff: This came out after my book came out, so it wasn’t in it. There’s a study from this woman, Lucia, that, you know, told me that she thinks that American parents couldn’t see what the people, kids were helping. 

In the study, they interviewed the moms in Los Angeles, European American moms, and Maya moms in the Yucatan, in the same village. And they asked, do your toddlers help? And what do they do? And they give them this scenario of like, the little, the toddler comes, And you’re doing the laundry and the toddler comes and starts throwing the clothes around. What do you do? 

And one of the moms in the Yucatan says something like, well, she’s like, I can tell she’s like balling up the toddler was balling up the clothes and throwing them. So she was like doing like kind of like just creating a ball and then throwing them. And to me, as an American, European American mom, I would see that as playing.

[00:26:10] Randi Rubenstein: Yeah.

[00:26:11] Michaeleen Doucleff: Right? Making a giant mess, right? But this Maya mom said, she’s trying to fold the clothes

[00:26:17] Randi Rubenstein: Mm hmm. Mm hmm.

[00:26:18] Michaeleen Doucleff: and put them away.

[00:26:19] Randi Rubenstein: hmm. Mm

[00:26:23] Michaeleen Doucleff: And maybe she was, actually. Right? Because to her little eyes, folding the clothes and putting them in the drawer kinda looks like balling up the clothes and throwing them. Right? Right. I mean, you could see how, like, in broad strokes. It could be that. It could be this little girl’s trying to fold the clothes and throw them into the,

[00:26:46] Randi Rubenstein: Right.

[00:26:47] Michaeleen Doucleff: and I,

[00:26:49] Randi Rubenstein: it’s what, like, I like to say what we focus on grows. So if you could, if you could focus on this little two year old being helpful 

[00:26:59] Michaeleen Doucleff: Trying, trying.

[00:27:00] Randi Rubenstein: She’s trying, she’s trying, look at you trying,

[00:27:03] Michaeleen Doucleff: folding the clothes.

[00:27:05] Randi Rubenstein: Helping mommy. Look at you.

[00:27:07] Michaeleen Doucleff: And then the, and then the Maya mom says, I, I’m so excited. She’s, she’s, she’s interested in folding clothes. And then I start teaching her how to do it. Right. So there’s a totally different mindset of like, this is what I’m saying. Like you, we wouldn’t see it. Right, because I would not see that as helping, right? 

But so once I’ve read this and I started looking for it with Rosie when she was like four three four like and and I could see it. Like one time she made a giant mess in the kitchen and I could see she was actually trying to like cook something. And if I you know, but it but with this new mindset I could see it right? 

Or if one time she did something and Matt got really angry, and I said she was trying to help but she messed up a little bit know And I say Yeah, right. Exactly. And it’s like, and then you’re right, like, once I could see it, it was like, well, wait, she wants to help me. Oh, she wants, let me show her how instead of getting mad at her or pushing her away. Right? 

So there’s that mindset too. Like, can we see? Because I’m telling you, Randi, they have just as much desire to hug Taylor Swift and kiss them as they, that, that desire isn’t bigger than their desire to help Taylor Swift. I’m telling you. 

[00:28:28] Randi Rubenstein: I agree. I think, when they’re vying for Taylor Swift’s attention, attention, attention, give your eyes on me. Meaning I want you to notice me, see me, all the things. I think it’s actually a sign that we’ve got some Turtle honey badgering going on. Like, I think that it’s a kid that hasn’t had like the mom who’s like, no, she’s really trying. She’s just trying to, she’s folding the clothes. Like, and now I need to just take the time to show her, meet her where she’s at and if you’re, right and give her purpose. But I think when you have a kid that’s like, you know, always wanting your attention, wanting your attention,

[00:29:12] Michaeleen Doucleff: They need purpose. They need responsibility. I’m telling you. They need, they’re bored. They’re bored.

[00:29:18] Randi Rubenstein: I think a lot of times they feel bored. I think a lot of times they also like, even when people think they’re giving their kids their, your, their attention all the time, or they’re with them all the time. Um, I mean, you know, you’re writing a book that is a lot about is about screens right now. I mean, I don’t think many people admit how much their attention is on their phone. And so it’s that,

[00:29:47] Michaeleen Doucleff: That is very, very true.

[00:29:50] Randi Rubenstein: Right.

[00:29:50] Michaeleen Doucleff: But how can you like give, right? I mean, how can you give your child a purpose if you’re not having a purpose that’s, like, in real life, in the moment? 

[00:29:58] Randi Rubenstein: If your purpose is social media, I mean, nobody’s admitting that. People aren’t admitting it, but I

[00:30:05] Michaeleen Doucleff: I think a lot of it is self conscious, Randi. I, I, I think a lot of it, they don’t realize how much. 

[00:30:11] Randi Rubenstein: yeah. How much are on,

[00:30:13] Michaeleen Doucleff: This is, there’s data, right? Like, the whole point of these devices is to tap into a very unconscious, subconscious, subconscious, reflexive behavior. I mean, that is the goal, stated goal. And, um, and that’s how it works. And so I think there isn’t an awareness of it. 

[00:30:29] Randi Rubenstein: A hundred percent.

[00:30:31] Michaeleen Doucleff: Oodles of data that people underestimated by, like, hours.

[00:30:34] Randi Rubenstein: My kids were just saying, they were just talking, you know, we were all just home together before Corey left for college and they were, they were all talking about people in their lives, young adults and beyond. Corey was talking about an internship and he just did this internship and the, you know, 28 year old that he was working underneath, 28. So a full adult. Corey said he didn’t even realize that like he would ask me a question, but I think he was just either trying to fill the space or do what he was told he had to do since I was his intern. But he would literally ask me a question and then start looking at his phone and doing things on his phone.

[00:31:27] Michaeleen Doucleff: Yeah,

[00:31:28] Randi Rubenstein: And then they all started sharing stories about how many kids and young adults that they know that it is not even on their radar. That and I was like, and I, of course I had to repeat one of my, you know, corny ass sayings and I’m like, you mean, it’s not even on their radar people before technology? Which whenever I think that was reminds them of when they were teenagers, they’re like, but I was like, they, they never learned, they were never conditioned. People come before technology. They’re like, stop, just stop right now. Like, don’t

[00:32:02] Michaeleen Doucleff: But it worked! It worked!

[00:32:04] Randi Rubenstein: But they’re, yeah, but it’s like, mind blowing to them. Because even though sometimes they choose technology before people, it’s not like, you know, I mean, Corey goes through many phases of uninstalling Tik Tok and uninstalling Instagram because he’s like, it’s a little bit of a problem. I got to uninstall it for a little bit, get myself out of the habit. You know, like he’s going back

[00:32:26] Michaeleen Doucleff: Why does he reinstall it? This is the question I have. Because this is, this, this is a compulsive, compulsion then. Right? It’s like the definition of a compulsion. If he, it, like I read this too. Like some kids will, like, like 20, 30 times. Uninstall, reinstall, uninstall, reinstall. I think that this is when, like, they have to build, like Cal Newport says, like they have to build bigger fences. You have to, like, say to yourself, my life and my feelings and my, like, my body and my mind are more important than this, like, compulsive cycle I’m running in, right?

[00:33:03] Randi Rubenstein: It’s, it’s very interesting to kind of watch him do it because I saw him do this with video games, you know? Like during COVID, the, the kids were playing tons of video games. He was playing that Fortnite. And during COVID I was like, Oh God, I hope, you know, I started like putting some parameters around it. Cause I was like, I think it’s becoming a little much.

And then he, he just stopped it. Because I think when life got back to normal, he didn’t want to play it anymore. Like he wanted to be with his friends. He

[00:33:38] Michaeleen Doucleff: He figured out that it was, it was not worthwhile.

[00:33:40] Randi Rubenstein: I think the same thing when he, he, he’s, he’s, he notices when all of a sudden he’s feeling like it’s a compulsion. He’s

[00:33:50] Michaeleen Doucleff: But the reinstalling is what I’m talking about as a compulsion. Like, this is the part I really think is interesting. Like, why, why keep trying?

[00:33:59] Randi Rubenstein: Well, I think for him, it’s

[00:34:02] Michaeleen Doucleff: It’s like an alcoholic, right? That, like, has decided this is not, and I, but I’m going to try it again. But then you, right? Like, so, like, 

[00:34:08] Randi Rubenstein: but 

[00:34:09] Michaeleen Doucleff: That’s the interesting question.

[00:34:11] Randi Rubenstein: Well, I think it’s interesting just even kind of to notice his habits because he said, because I’m not telling him, I’m just kind of, I mean, he’s 18 now, so like, he’s going to do

[00:34:20] Michaeleen Doucleff: I’m not, I’m just curious, like, why he, like, what is his

[00:34:24] Randi Rubenstein: think

[00:34:24] Michaeleen Doucleff: rationale for it?

[00:34:27] Randi Rubenstein: What he’ll tell you. Like, I know that he got Tik Tok back, but he hasn’t, reinstalled, um, Instagram yet. So I think right now his rationale is only one, like, until he feels like he’s got a handle on it, I actually think until he feels like his life is more interesting

[00:34:51] Michaeleen Doucleff: Yes, I think that is the, I think that is the root cause of the problem is he doesn’t have anything to backfill the void.

[00:34:59] Randi Rubenstein: He didn’t, he was so ready to go to college. He was so bored with his life. He was in a teeny tiny little school. He was, he was busting out at the seams. And so now he’s at college, not knowing a soul. And I think he, he knew like, my goal is, is I’m going to college. I’m about to have, you know, 22,000

[00:35:22] Michaeleen Doucleff: real, real people, 

[00:35:23] Randi Rubenstein: the reinstalling and uninstalling is, I’m noticing that it’s a problem. I’m going to take it off for a little bit and then I’m going to bring it back and see if I still have this compulsion. If I have this compulsion,

[00:35:36] Michaeleen Doucleff: Like, why, why does he think that’s going away? The device is made for him to feel compulsion and to put you in this like machine loop. And so it’s very fascinating to me, like, why he thinks he can control that when the device is made to make him do that. 

[00:35:55] Randi Rubenstein: Cause I, think he feels like if his life is more interesting. He naturally loses the compulsion. I think that’s his I think that’s his rationale. I don’t know he’d have to

[00:36:07] Michaeleen Doucleff: It’s fascinating to me because it is like, there’s a lot of data on it, the kids, girls, especially with social, like, struggle a lot. They, they delete, they reinstall they delete, they reinstall. I mean, personally. I do it too with Twitter. I don’t delete it, but I, like, I spend months I don’t go on it, and then, like, it happened this week. I hadn’t been on Twitter in months. Twitter, like, messes with my mind. Messes with my mood. And it’s incredible how I have to relearn it. 

Because yes, like Wednesday, I, um, I first, Oh, it was the New York times article. And I wanted to like, get the woman, like respond to the woman. Although my publisher sent them the book. So I was like, they’d already done it. I didn’t even know it. But, um, and I went on and I did it and literally, uh, Randi, like, I think 30 seconds, I found something on there that just put me in a horrific mood for like 12 hours, Literally like 30 seconds. And that’s why I went off of it because it always made me feel bad.

And I thought, this is so fascinating to me. Like how deep this thing is in my mind for me to have to relearn this lesson over and over and over again. And it’s like, why I should just delete my account, right? Like, I should just delete my account. Why do I value this thing so much that I keep trying?

And, um, because that’s, that’s what the dopamine system is. People don’t realize this. All those dopamine hits is, is lighting up your, your, the value system in your brain. Dopamine is the, is the, it helps you value things. Not value things like, um, I value world peace, or I value the democratic party, or like, not these, like, I, like, big ideas, it’s like, what do I value in my life, in the everyday life, in moments.

The dopamine, every time you get a dopamine hit, you’re boosting the value of this thing in your life. That’s how alcohol works, that’s how cocaine works. To the point where, like, eventually, you only value the alcohol over everything else, or the cocaine, right? So this is how social media and video games work. We just keep boosting the value of this program in the person’s mind. To the point where it’s the highest value item and you, you choose it over the person standing in front of you. You choose it over taking a shower. Right? 

So it’s, it’s fascinating to me. Like, how, how this Twitter is like, this value in my subconscious. It’s totally subconscious. And so it’s like, how Tik Tok is so valued in his mind, right? And I’m putting myself in the same place, right? Like, that he reinstalls it versus just being like, the heck with this manipulative thing that I have to get away from, right?

[00:38:52] Randi Rubenstein: I mean it’s uh the interesting thing for Tik Tok Is I think it’s, you know, all those little videos, you know, TikTok has its own personality and I think it’s the videos. You know, it’s kind of like watching a lot of standup comedy clips, you know,

[00:39:14] Michaeleen Doucleff: It’s an emotional slot machine or it’s emotional slot machine. That’s what, no, that is what it’s designed to be. That’s, 

[00:39:21] Randi Rubenstein: It depends on what your feed is, you know, like for 

[00:39:24] Michaeleen Doucleff: But it’s still, you set it up to like, whatever you’ve chosen, it’s still an emotional slot machine. You are swiping because you don’t know what you’re going to feel next.

[00:39:36] Randi Rubenstein: Yeah. I think for, I, yeah, yeah. I think 

[00:39:38] Michaeleen Doucleff: Good, bad, in between.

[00:39:40] Randi Rubenstein: Yeah. I think it’s like, it’s like the joy hunter. Because if he’s not having a lot of joy in his real life, he’s looking for, you know, Corey has a, has a really cute sense of humor and he’s always looking for hilarious content. And so he’s, I think it’s like a joy, like, yes, he’s looking for that. That

[00:40:04] Michaeleen Doucleff: Which would be like totally fine if the algorithm said, because the algorithm knows what he’s looking for. Number the algorithm knows exactly what he wants to see. Exactly. And it be totally fine if the algorithm said, Corey really wants joy, let’s give him joy. I mean, I’m being the computer, right? But like, that’s kind of what it’s doing. He wants joy, let me give him a lot of joy. If the algorithm did that, he would leave. It would be a vending machine, and he would say, I want joy, and then I got my joy, and I’m done.

[00:40:36] Randi Rubenstein: Right.

[00:40:36] Michaeleen Doucleff: The algorithm does not say that. The algorithm says, how many videos do we have to give him that’s not joy so that he will stay on it after we give him another joy video?

[00:40:47] Randi Rubenstein: That’s right.

[00:40:48] Michaeleen Doucleff: It’s, right, it

[00:40:50] Randi Rubenstein: You’re like hunting. He’s like hunting for joy.

[00:40:52] Michaeleen Doucleff: And it’s not even, right, it’s not even random. It’s not an intermittent reward that’s random. It’s an intermittent reward that is programmed for Cory. So a lot of people, probably Cory, stays on the device the longest if they feel frustration.

[00:41:09] Randi Rubenstein: Yes, yes, yes.

[00:41:11] Michaeleen Doucleff: And so 

[00:41:12] Randi Rubenstein: Hunting for joy. 

[00:41:13] Michaeleen Doucleff: Yes, it is probably a frustration device. Because that is, that’s a maximal time on machine. That’s what they call it in Vegas. Time on machine. Like YouTube calls it watch time, time on device, right. Is, is actually causing kind of frustration. So

[00:41:31] Randi Rubenstein: Totally makes sense. Wait, when is this book coming out? Cause I need 

[00:41:36] Michaeleen Doucleff: I’m almost done. Oh my God, Randi, I have this whole new thread through it that’s all about building your child’s, designing and building your child’s habit garden.

[00:41:49] Randi Rubenstein: Yeah. 

[00:41:49] Michaeleen Doucleff: You, as the parent, have the power that the tech industry would only dream of. To build, design and then build your child’s habit garden. And do you want those flowers? Do you want those, those plants to grow up and bloom into satisfaction and joy and, and awe, and fulfillment, or do you want them to just grow these giant stems that never flower? 

[00:42:18] Randi Rubenstein: Prickly cactus. 

[00:42:21] Michaeleen Doucleff: Woody, woody stems, massive roots that like reach deep into your life and take over your whole house, but like never form one bloom.

[00:42:31] Randi Rubenstein: Did that come to you, did that, when did that, when did that idea come to you? Did it pop into your head like first thing in the morning after a good sleep? When did it pop into your head?

[00:42:41] Michaeleen Doucleff: It was like, I was writing like two weeks ago and I just, I was, and I wasn’t even going to put it in the book. I was like, let me just like experiment with this. And then I was like, at the end of it, I wrote, I think it’s my job as a parent to build Rosie’s habit garden. Like design and build it. And then I was like, I’m done. And I was like, I was like, I don’t know what I’m doing with it yet, but that’s it. Like, and then I told Matt and he was like, Oh my God, I have like chills, Michaeleen, he was like, and then I told the book agent and he was like, I love it because it’s like soothing.

[00:43:14] Randi Rubenstein: Yes. Mm hmm.

[00:43:16] Michaeleen Doucleff: When you bring TikTok into your life, Corey,

[00:43:20] Randi Rubenstein: Yes, Corey. 

[00:43:21] Michaeleen Doucleff: He’s plant every time he reinstalls it. He’s planting that habit seed back. Right. 

[00:43:27] Randi Rubenstein: So true. 

[00:43:28] Michaeleen Doucleff: And every time he’s on it, he’s watering it. You know? And I’m not saying that these habits are terrible to have ones that don’t bloom. We all need things in our life that don’t bloom. But it’s like your whole life is things that don’t bloom? Ugh. Ugh.

[00:43:41] Randi Rubenstein: I think part of also, look, I think part of what also develops a habit garden, and I’ve seen this with my older kids, is like, when they start to build that self awareness of like, like right now, Um, he’s, I mean, he’s only 18. So like right now he’s, he is noticing, okay, it became a little bit of a, of a problem. And I, you know, like there’s certain people that right now I’m trying to have, I’m not, I’m trying not to see on social media because I don’t like you with Twitter. Like he kind of felt like he

[00:44:17] Michaeleen Doucleff: It makes him feel bad.

[00:44:19] Randi Rubenstein: right? It was, he needed to take a break, right? So he uninstalls it. But then I was like, I said something about him uninstalling. He’s like, well, I’ve reinstalled Tik Tok. I was like, oh, he’s like, but not Instagram yet. And I was like, oh, okay. So like he’s 

[00:44:33] Michaeleen Doucleff: Yeah, it’s very fascinating. It’s like there’s something in him that thinks he has to have it.

[00:44:39] Randi Rubenstein: But I think he’s also like, he’ll, I mean, because I’ve seen this with my older kids and like, when we start to talk about like, even when something’s still a little bit, cause for with Alec, it’s more the video games, you know, like his big pull is the video games. And, and he even starts to study. He just did this like mini triathlon. So he’s really into training for that. And he had two partners. And so he was having a lot of fun, real life experiences and things to look forward to and had a purpose. Like he was training for this thing with a purpose, right. 

And, uh, and he said to me, he said. Because he had just said to me like a month or two ago, he had said something about video games and I’m just like, always kind of, I was like, have you noticed, like, like, are you enjoying them more than you’re enjoying being with people? And there’s been times in the last, I would say even year where he’s like, I enjoy them the most. Well, but if left to my own devices, like I have to have a lot of structure in my life because if left to my own devices, I, like, that’s all I would want to do. And so it’s my favorite thing. 

And so anyway, I, I heard him say like maybe like a month or so ago and he was really heavily into this training thing and he’s like, yeah, I’ve barely been playing video games. And I was like, Oh, isn’t that interesting? You know, like, so I’m also seeing all of them just even kind of like getting curious about their own habits, noticing them and almost like becoming the watcher a little bit. Um, 

[00:46:18] Michaeleen Doucleff: Yeah, it’s interesting to also think like, uh, the different, that, that joy and favorite and liking is different than wanting, right? Cause you, you just, the sentence you just used come mixed the both up into one, like, we’re not into one, into one sentence, right? It’s like my new favorite thing. It’s all I want to do. But everything you want. Like, that’s how they made the most addictive screen in the world in Vegas, is by giving gamblers what they want. Wanting is very, very different than pleasure,

[00:46:48] Randi Rubenstein: Yes.

[00:46:50] Michaeleen Doucleff: And liking even. And these games are really, really, games and social media are really, really made to, to maximize wanting, and they are not made to maximize joy and pleasure and satisfaction because that makes you stop. Right. 

But I, but I think it’s interesting. I, I was, because towards the end of the book, I talk, I talk about, like, interroception, and in helping kids, because I think it’s something you can’t really develop until your teens. But helping kids, like, figure out, one way to think about and then I have to go make dinner. 

But, like, like, there’s one way to think about, like, what I’m starting to learn myself. The pleasure of food is not just the process of eating. The pleasure of food is also the way you feel 10, 20, 30, 40, 50, two hours. It’s this long term feeling of like contentment. I’m good, everything’s good, I got everything I need, I just feel good. Right? 

And I, and I think that light, like activities on the screen are very similar. And I think that teaching children to understand that this is how, this is how experiences in life should be as well. That they aren’t just about what you’re, how you’re feeling in the moment, but it’s truly, genuinely satisfying, pleasurable things. So food like sweets and cake and donuts and they will not make you feel good 10, 20, 30, 40, 50 minutes, right? So, I think it’s the same with the screen, so it’s like teaching children to not only notice how they feel during it, but how you feel afterwards.

[00:48:35] Randi Rubenstein: Like what you said with the Twitter, like 12 hours, like for 12 hours. And I noticed that too. If I go on social media and I scroll, which I don’t do very often, and when I do it, even if like 10 minutes would be my max, I would ever. And I notice like, uh, I immediately am feeling bad by the end of that 10 minutes and then I’m like, okay, this feels bad. And then I get off and then it takes me probably another 30 minutes or an hour to finish shaking off that, it’s like an ick feeling.

[00:49:15] Michaeleen Doucleff: Mm hmm.

[00:49:15] Randi Rubenstein: An ick. It’s a heaviness. It’s

[00:49:17] Michaeleen Doucleff: Mm hmm.

[00:49:18] Randi Rubenstein: there’s nothing about that that felt pleasurable.

[00:49:21] Michaeleen Doucleff: It’s the opposite of, like, an orgasm, right? Where the orgasm, you feel good for, like, days, or like, or at, like, right, see, it’s the, it’s the opposite thing that’s happening in your brain,

[00:49:31] Randi Rubenstein: Yes.

[00:49:33] Michaeleen Doucleff: And I think what social media, the trick that social media plays, I think, especially on teens, is that. I mean, it plays it on me. So like, and I, and I, and I’m, I have executive functions, you know, I’m not like,

[00:49:46] Randi Rubenstein: I write books.

[00:49:47] Michaeleen Doucleff: I know I was like, you know, I, I like emotionally very mature person, but

[00:49:52] Randi Rubenstein: Right. 

[00:49:53] Michaeleen Doucleff: I’m not this super impulsive person. I’m just not, but it still does this to me. I’m just aware of it more than I think most people are, but like, um, it makes you think that you’re going to shake that feeling, Randi. By doing it more. And that is the insidious thing! Right. 

And I have that like, oh, I had that feeling that night. I was like, I gotta go back on. I gotta like, I gotta find out more because what it’s tapping into is like fear and humans, humans, you know, dopamine is about wanting to survive. And that’s why we want sex. We want food. We want water. We want salt. Right. 

But we also want to learn about things that make us feel bad. We want to learn about our threats and dangers. So we move towards things sometimes that are like, feel threatening or dangerous or make us feel bad, because we want to learn about it. That’s how we control our, that’s, that’s how we, and so it taps into this thing of like, if you stay on, you’re going to feel better, but not, you’re not, you’re not, you’re going to feel worse.

And I think that this is why teenage girls has such a problem with it, because it ails them and makes them feel like you’re talking about. And it also makes them feel like the remedy, the antidote is more of it. When really the antidote is less, less of it. Right? And understanding there’s things in life that actually make me feel really good afterwards.

[00:51:24] Randi Rubenstein: Yeah, 

[00:51:24] Michaeleen Doucleff: And that’s the bloom. The bloom is feeling good afterwards. The stem is the like process of what you’re doing. And the bloom is like the sat, the orgasm, the satisfaction, the endorphins afterwards.

[00:51:37] Randi Rubenstein: Mm hmm. Mm

[00:51:39] Michaeleen Doucleff: Like, I want to teach Rosie, not yet. She’s too young. I mean, I say it to her. How’d you feel afterwards? Like, how did that make you feel afterwards? You know, did that feel good? I mean, you’ve done it with me. Like, did you feel good after this session? Like, right. It’s the same, right. With friends, like, did that friend make you feel good? Did that like, um, but teaching that kind of, how does your body feel? How does it like, you know. 

And then, you know, cutting out the things that make you feel bad afterwards, so you’re not going to reinstall them. Like this conversation is I will probably go and like delete my Twitter account because this is what I’m trying to do. And so that’s why I’m harping on Corey because I’m, I’m working on this myself 

[00:52:14] Randi Rubenstein: Yeah. 

[00:52:15] Michaeleen Doucleff: Cutting out the things in your life that don’t make you feel good afterwards. And bringing in the things, more of the things that you do, and then you become a happy person.

[00:52:25] Randi Rubenstein: Yes. Like,

[00:52:26] Michaeleen Doucleff: And your habit garden is beautiful.

[00:52:29] Randi Rubenstein: I mean, the habit garden is so, it’s so good. And like, look, we’re still like, exactly. I mean, I think cool to be talking about this stuff. And it’s also like the fact that you’re talking about it with Rosie, starting to talk about these things with Rosie at nine, I’m talking to my young adult kids about these things. Like, these are things that we’re all struggling with as humans. And like,

[00:52:54] Michaeleen Doucleff: Exactly.

[00:52:55] Randi Rubenstein: And like for a kid, you know, for a kid that is Rosie’s age, like this is conditioning her. So when she is faced with, you know, this issue in her life, because she’s got a device or whatever, like. It’s not new information, you know? It’s kind of like my kids being me being like, Oh, I guess they didn’t have people before technology, you know, and they’re like, stop. But, but they joke about it and we’re joking about it, but really, like, you’re welcome. I did freaking brainwash. Not that you’re always choosing

[00:53:31] Michaeleen Doucleff: No, it’s, it’s educating them. You’re, you’re, and you would often, and Abigail Sherer, and lots of people would say, you transmitted a value to them. Right. You said, you said my habit guard, your habit garden deserves a lot more people blossoms, blossoms that have people in them. Right. And over blossoms, things that don’t blossom, which is a lot of technology. Right. And like you, you transmitted that value to them. That’s not brainwashing. That’s, That’s damn good parenting, Randi.

[00:54:00] Randi Rubenstein: Thank you. Thank you. Okay. I’ll stop recording

[00:54:03] Michaeleen Doucleff: Maybe we’ll stop there.

[00:54:05] Randi Rubenstein: Yeah, exactly. Exactly. Thanks for listening today, guys. I hope you picked up some tips, tools, maybe some baby steps for creating more balance and boundaries in your life. And I just wanted to let you know, if you want to continue moving the needle forward in creating this for yourself, having a happier household, I want you to go to my website and check out mastermindparenting.com. We have three beginning programs, and if you need some accountability and more support then please look for the one that would be a good fit for you.

And, as always, we’re on all the social channels under Mastermind Parenting, on Instagram it’s mastermind_parenting. And, you know, periodically I do pop up on different Instagram lives, Facebook lives where I give you teaching and coaching and I love engaging with you live to help you help your strong-willed kids so that they can feel better, because when they feel better they do better, and I love, love, love getting to know you guys. 

So thanks for listening. If you like this podcast, please don’t forget to subscribe, rate and review. Super, super appreciative.