311: Kids Learn Through Stories With Michael Dimartino, Co-Creator Of Avatar: The Last Airbender

[00:00:00] Randi Rubenstein: My name is Randi Rubenstein, and welcome to the Mastermind Parenting Podcast. At Mastermind Parenting, we’re on a mission to support strong-willed kids and the families that love them. 

Hi everyone. I am here this week with Mike DiMartino. And the amazing Avery Rubinstein is back again. There she is. um, and we are going to be talking, this is going to be an episode for parents. Uh, well, pretty much for all of you, because if you have little kids, then you can be preparing for when your little kids become bigger kids. Um, and if you have bigger kids, if you have teenagers, if you have tweens, um, Mike, is here, he’s going to teach us a masterclass on how to have hard conversations with our kids and talk about topics that, are I think quite often difficult to broach. Um, but when we incorporate stories and characters and sort of use them as a bridge, it becomes a tool for us to have more productive and honest conversations with our kids.

So I’m really excited to have Mike on because he has created all kinds of iconic shows and been a part of. Um, really, really amazing bodies of work. Like, um, he was the co creator of the Avatar universe. Um, my, all three of my kids, their favorite series of all time. I have found out Avatar, the Last Airbender, um, the legend of Korra. Um, so many beloved Nickelodeon shows he’s got a resume a mile long and now he is writing novels for young adults and really covering some intense themes and so I wanted to have Mike on because I want to I want to talk about all the things. So thank you for being here today

[00:02:00] Michael DiMartino: Oh, thanks so much for having me on. Great to talk to you.

[00:02:04] Randi Rubenstein: so the fact that the three of my kids have been huge huge fans of your work. And down to the point that what my younger son, he, what did he announce like a year or two ago? He said up to, he announced to his siblings. Oh, Hey guys, I went ahead and bought. What did he buy, Avery?

[00:02:27] Avery Rubenstein: I think he bought a season of Avatar. 

[00:02:31] Randi Rubenstein: he like, 

[00:02:32] Avery Rubenstein: it was on, it was like, they hadn’t released it on Netflix yet. And I don’t think it was on Crunchyroll or anything. And he like,

[00:02:38] Randi Rubenstein: wait. He couldn’t

[00:02:39] Avery Rubenstein: be deprived anymore. I have to buy. And so he bought a whole season of it on Amazon.

[00:02:45] Randi Rubenstein: And I was like, what are you doing, Corey? Like, like, come on. We have every platform, every streaming service, like you’re going up. He’s like, mom, you don’t understand. He did. He doubled down. He defended it. He was like, you don’t understand. And then both of his siblings were like, Oh, that’s awesome. You bought that. It’s

so awesome. Now we now we own it. So like, they’re such a fan of your work. So

[00:03:11] Michael DiMartino: That’s amazing. Yeah. Well, it’s funny. I mean, we’ve, that was, you know, we created that show, uh, over 20 years ago now, so that back in the day they would release these things called DVDs and people would go out and buy DVDs of, of the show, you know, once it aired, uh, we’d release like these box sets of each season.

there’s still people who buy them and collect them, but, uh, yeah, now it’s all on streaming and yeah, he must’ve been right in that period. There was a, there was like kind of a gap between like the, the DVD era and then before it was on Netflix and there was this, you know, little, little area where people, it was harder to get, I think. So he

[00:03:52] Avery Rubenstein: Yeah, he was the first of us to be brave enough. Yeah, Well, I, I asked him yesterday. I said, I said, it seems like y’all all have been into this show. Like more as like young adults, like older teenagers, young adults. And Corey’s like, no, no, no. I’ve the first time I ever watched Avatar Last Airbender was when I was about 10. I’ve just watched it a lot of times and it never gets old. Like it never stops delivering. 

[00:04:20] Randi Rubenstein: And so Avery, when I, I, I. I never watched it. My kids just loved it. And now I realize it was kind of a missed opportunity because, because they loved it so much. I like could have been bonding with them over all the stories and the characters, but Avery, what did you say when I said, why did y’all love this show so much?

[00:04:41] Avery Rubenstein: I think, because I think it stays compelling, like, through every age, because when you’re young, it’s just like kind of a beautiful story. You know, like, the animation is gorgeous. It captures your attention. It makes you feel things. And then as you get older, it’s like, all these deep themes of, like, loss and, like, the overwhelm of anger and, like, these beautiful character arcs.

Something about it just, like, gives you hope for humanity. Like, that’s what my brothers and I always talk about. We’re like, oh my god, like, Avatar just, like, has so much social commentary. And you get so connected to the characters. I don’t know how you do it, but, like, each of the characters just draws you in and you want to know their story. And it was pretty sad when it ended, because you’re like, what happened?

[00:05:30] Michael DiMartino: Yeah, I mean, it’s amazing over the years, you know, we’ve done comic cons and met fans and stuff over the years and it is remarkable how many families come up to us, um, who have watched it together or siblings who have, they can’t agree on anything, but they agree on. Avatar The Last Airbender is awesome and we watch it together.

[00:05:50] Avery Rubenstein: Mm hmm.

[00:05:50] Michael DiMartino: Or a grandmother who watches it with their grandchild. Um, so we’ve, it’s, it’s very, you know, satisfying to hear that it connects with, with so many people of different ages. 

And that was one of our goals, my friend Brian and I, when we created it was, you know, we were trying to make something that, A, that we would enjoy, that we wanted to work on, um, that we were excited to create, but then also something that would last, you know, something that wasn’t just a, um, you know, there’s, there’s great shows out there, but you know, you watch them once and you’re, you move on with your life. 

But yeah, there’s something about the show that people will watch it again, and again. They know the story, but it’s still, I think it is those, the, the emotional themes, like you said, and the characters that people want to come back and kind of re experience the journey. It’s also, you know, it’s a classic heroes journey kind of mythology. So, like Star Wars or Lord of the Rings, like, you can take those journeys over and over and, you know, I’ll watch Lord of the Rings. I’ve watched, that’s probably 1 movie. I’ve watched a bunch of times and Star Wars as well. You know, I think I think those kind of mythological journeys also lend themselves to like rewatching and re experiencing as a viewer or a reader.

[00:07:03] Avery Rubenstein: hmm. Yeah. That’s me with Game of Thrones as well.

[00:07:06] Michael DiMartino: Yeah, a good one too.

[00:07:07] Avery Rubenstein: Mm hmm.

[00:07:08] Randi Rubenstein: When, when you guys decided when you started creating it, what was the initial, like, what did you say? Like, Hey, let’s make a show or let’s write a story about what?

[00:07:22] Michael DiMartino: Yeah, it really, it’s a funny origin story because, you know, I was working in animation, I went to art school at Rhode Island school of design, graduated and moved to LA to get into the animation industry. I worked on some, some other animated shows for a while, but I always, you know, one of my dreams was to create my own show and my friend Brian, who I’d met at art school, um, Similarly wanted to do that as well.

So we were kind of like, you know, kind of on the side from our day jobs, like trying to figure out like what we wanted to do, what kind of show we could create. And then we kind of had this opportunity through Nickelodeon and the development executive there who, you know, during a meeting, they kind of told us what they were looking for. So it wasn’t that we had this idea stewing for years and years, and we were like. Trying to get it made and knocking on a million doors. It kind of came to us as an assignment. 

So I like to tell people that because sometimes people think you have to have like the grandest idea ever for years and years for it to pay off, but in this case it really was like someone giving you a prompt almost of like, so they were looking for a, something like a Harry Potter or, or Lord of the Rings, legends, lore, mythology with action.

And at the time we were watching Miyazaki’s movies, um, like, uh, Spirited away and princess Mononoke, those, those kinds of Japanese films. And we’re super inspired by those. So we were combining all our interests in martial arts in, like I said, like mythology, um, anime, those kinds of things, and kind of came up with our own version of like, what can an action show be that uses, you know, one of the other, like, kind of parameters we had to work with was like, it’s, we want to have an action show, they said, but it can’t be like superheroes punching each other in the face. Cause this is Nickelodeon for kids. So it was like, okay, how can we have action, that’s not like super violent or super imitable. That’s a big thing for kids Tv is like, Oh, they can’t has to be something that kids can’t readily, you know, imitate in their living rooms. 

Um, so we. Using martial arts and the idea of martial arts and adapting it with like the idea of bending. So they, the characters in the show bend the elements. So that puts distance between the characters and you can still have these like super dynamic action, uh, scenes, but you know, it’s, it’s, it’s fantasy. It’s people are bending the elements. So,

[00:09:55] Randi Rubenstein: Yeah. That’s so interesting. It’s um, it’s, do you think that the, like, it’s why like the draw to the genre of Japanese cartoon culture, right? I know that’s probably not the way of saying it, but like my son, my younger son has told me I I’ve said like, why do you love anime so much? And he’s like, it’s deep mom. It’s dramatic and it’s deep. 

And so like, did you feel like when you were creating this story and this series that it was like, there’s, there’s a real moment to bring more depth into these shows? Like was that, you know, even the hero’s journey, like how are we going to approach this? It seems like that seems like there’s a lot of depth and soul involved.

[00:10:47] Michael DiMartino: We put all our heart and soul into these things. And yeah, I think there is a, uh, cultural difference, the history of comics and animation in the west versus in Japan, which, so over there, when we were starting the show, you know, it was harder to get your hands on anime. Like there might be some DVDs. So one show that we loved was Cowboy Bebop, that was a big influence. Um, but it wasn’t, there wasn’t Crunchyroll. There weren’t, there weren’t all these, like, there wasn’t Netflix showing, you know, all these amazing anime shows. 

Um, but yeah, I think the, the one big difference is like in the West, you know, I grew up with Disney and, you know, Nickelodeon cartoons and it’s a very, or Warner Brothers, you know, like it’s a very, in a lot of cases, silly or goofy or, you know. Disney’s it’s own genre, you know, fairy tale kind of storytelling. Whereas I think, you know, in the, in, especially in Japan, like there was just this history of like, there was comics for everyone. There’s comics, there’s an anime for every, there’s like, you know, preschoolers up through like adult comics about, you know, the business world or sports, you know, there’s a lot of sports comics, those kinds of things.

So there was, I think there was just a wider range of things of what was possible in comics and animation in Japan. And we were, as much as I was like grew up on Disney and stuff, like I went, once we saw Miyazaki’s movies, those were kind of like a big light bulb moment, where it was like, Oh, I kind of get this storytelling. Like it’s a different, little bit different text. Visual style and then also storytelling style, more mysticism, spirituality, that sort of thing. So we wanted to infuse some of that into the show as well.

[00:12:40] Randi Rubenstein: Disney shows are like, I don’t know, Avery, what would you say? Like, it’s more like good evil. It’s all, it’s

[00:12:47] Avery Rubenstein: yeah, there’s less gray area between villain and good guy. I feel like that was, I think that’s also a big draw of the Avatar and Korra, um, stories is like, there is a middle ground, and people can change, and I feel like that’s not super common in shows that were created for little kids. 

[00:13:08] Michael DiMartino: Now, that’s a great point. I mean, that’s one thing we always go back to is like, that’s one of our mantras. It’s like, it’s not good versus evil. It’s people who are in balance or out of balance with themselves or, or societies that are in or out of balance with themselves. So the idea of the, the Avatar, this mythical character in our series is like, they are the one who is supposed to help navigate this world and bring balance to these different nations and different peoples. And then often they are out of balance in some way and have to kind of figure out their own personal journey and stuff. But yeah, I think that’s a great observation.

[00:13:44] Avery Rubenstein: Right, yeah. And it wasn’t even like, like, cause I feel like in a lot of shows it would be like, this character created to save the world once they’ve reached that enlightenment. They’re this all knowing, beautiful, perfect, you know, being. But like, even like Avatar Kyoshi had evil in her when she would show up and help Aang and whatnot. And like at the end like Fire Lord Ozai, like he felt fear and he was confused by Aang’s kindness. Like there’s these multiple layers to the characters that I thought was just so beautiful. 

I do have a question about you said Nickelodeon, you know, you had to kind of curb the violence and I was wondering, in terms of like all the themes you have about reincarnation and life after death, how much of that was to kind of soften the blow of death for kids and how much is that your personal beliefs and like what you brought into the show?

[00:14:39] Michael DiMartino: That was just part of drawing on like an Eastern philosophy and Eastern cultures and stuff. Um, wasn’t necessarily to soften the blow. Uh, but yeah, that, that, the, the idea of like even saying the word death in kids shows, often you get notes of can we say they were destroyed? Or, you know, you have to sometimes skirt the issue a little bit.

Um, so, but for the, for the most part, like we always say, like, that was the show you see is, is 99 percent what we set out to create. Like, you know, there were a couple of compromises along the way, but in a, in a funny way, Nickelodeon, because it was so different than what had typically been on Nickelodeon, especially at that time, they kind of didn’t know what to do with us. So they sort of left us alone and they were like, people seem to like the show. They’re, looks cool and it’s connecting with audiences. So they, uh, you know, let us do our thing. So that was quite remarkable, especially in the Hollywood world.

[00:15:39] Avery Rubenstein: Mm hmm. Yeah. Did you, did you draw from those themes in your new book, Both Here and Gone? Because I noticed, without any spoilers, there is that theme of reincarnation and life after death. How much of that was inspired by Avatar and Korra?

[00:15:57] Michael DiMartino: Yeah. It’s funny. It’s like, I always think of these projects as very separate. But then when I start talking about the different things I’ve worked on, you start to see these like threads through your work, you know, that you maybe initially weren’t super conscious of. Um, obviously, yeah, my, my new book is like deals with a lot about grief, um, grief and loss. And it’s about a, a kid who’s, uh, going through a bunch of different losses in his life and trying to learn how to navigate it and cope, um, as well as his community around him. 

Um, But yeah, I think certainly the shows and this book, there’s a lot of loss, a lot of grief. I mean, Aang, the hero of the show, went through a genocide. He’s literally the last of his culture. you know, what we, I tried to do and what we tried to do in the show is like balance the, that darkness, the heavy side of life with, like you said earlier, like the hopeful side. So. I don’t want to leave readers super depressed at the end or super, like, hopeless that there’s no way out.

Like, the book is, you know, can be heavy at times and, and I tried to, unlike Avatar, like, this is a YA book based in reality. It’s, there’s no magic. There’s no fantasy elements. It’s, it’s a very realistic sort of story. Uh, But I didn’t, yeah, I wanted to leave the reader with, with a sense of hope at the end that there is, you’re going to always have this grief, you’re going to run up into these, uh, difficult life situations, but there are ways to, to, you know, make connections with others and find your way through it and, you know, try to find a, a path forward.

[00:17:48] Avery Rubenstein: Mm hmm. Which I totally, I mean, I was, I was telling my mom when I was reading the book, I was about halfway through and my boyfriend has been watching me read for the last 4 hours. And he’s like, what is that? What is that about? And I kind of gave him a synopsis of where I was and he was like, yikes. Like, I don’t know. That’s, that’s tough. 

And I was like, no, you don’t understand like something about it. You just have so much hope that things are going to get better. And that carried out through the entire story. I had hope that, you know, his life would maybe not, you know, fix, but he would come to terms. Yeah.

[00:18:27] Randi Rubenstein: I wasn’t even planning, I mean, full disclosure, which I told Mike before we started recording. I wasn’t planning on reading it. I was really like, I, you know what? I didn’t watch Avatar, The Last Airbender and I have never been a person that is super into it. I have not even super, I haven’t been into animation at all. When my kid, my, we joke about it that my kids are like, remember such and such movie? And I’m like, no, I don’t remember that movie. That was my digital babysitter. I was doing anything but watch, watching that movie. I was with you people all the time. So if you were plugged in watching a movie, I was somewhere else.

And, and my younger son has been, like making me watch his favorite movies, which I’ve actually gotten really into it. He’s like, see, these are so good. But I have not ever been into animation, but all my kids are, and they haven’t grown out of it. It, it seems to just even be intensifying like, and so I wasn’t, I was like, Avery, come, you’ll do this. We’ll do this together. Um, I don’t need to read this book. So I read like the first chapter. And then Avery texted me yesterday morning and was like, okay, just so you know, the book’s amazing. And I was like, yes, I’m reading the book. So I spent yesterday afternoon binge reading the book. And, um, it is so good, like the story is so compelling. And I have watched a few like anime. My, you know, my younger son has been like, mom, it’s so deep. You would love the themes in anime. You’ve got to watch this movie. So I have now watched enough and I see what they’re talking about. Um, but what you did in this book about a 14 year old, which I think is interesting and I don’t know if I can say this exactly the way I don’t know if I can be succinct about this, but I’ve been rereading some Judy Blume books lately. Did you ever read any of the Judy Blume books?

[00:20:30] Michael DiMartino: I probably did when I was a kid. I remember, yeah. 

[00:20:32] Randi Rubenstein: I’ve been rereading them as an adult, getting a wild hair and there’s something, and Judy’s books are like, you know, she wrote them. It was pretty much like the 1970s and this story, it takes place in the 1970s, correct? Was

it the 

[00:20:50] Michael DiMartino: early 80s. early 

[00:20:51] Randi Rubenstein: eighties. Okay. So you reference the

seven. 

[00:20:54] Michael DiMartino: So, yeah.

[00:20:55] Randi Rubenstein: Me too. Me too. So, so I grew up in the seventies and eighties. And so, um, so I’m seeing kind of a similar, um, like I guess timeframe as Judy’s books, but I thought it was interesting the way the adults are conveyed in the story and the way the adults are conveyed in Judy’s stories.

These are stories written for kids. Um, the adults, most of the adults are not exactly the heroes of the story. I would say, some of them are more, more or less Darth Vader esque a lot of them. You know, there’s not, I mean, every once in a while you might have a Yoda pop up, um, like Rennie, but, um, but yeah, like, like the adults are assholes in, in Um, most of the stories that I’ve read that seem to be become popular children’s stories. It’s like the adults just don’t get it. 

Um, and I guess the thing that I find so interesting is that as an adult, when I’m reading this story, these stories and yours yesterday, it takes me so back to being a kid and remembering how I felt when it was like the adults just don’t get it.

[00:22:12] Michael DiMartino: Mm

[00:22:12] Randi Rubenstein: And that’s why I’m like, I wish I would have watched these, you know, I wish I would have watched Avatar with my kids when they were younger. Right. So that when they went through those teenage years where they really felt like the adults just don’t get it. Like we could have talked about that story. 

And like I’m reading Both here And gone and I’m thinking how many people do I know who have kids that are tweens and teens and they feel like the adults don’t just don’t get it? And if their adult was reading this story, at least the adult could like, you know, and if the kid was reading the story too, or they’re watching something together, like, what if the adult could then go back and reference like the mom in this story? There were so many times I was like, mom, like what the fuck is wrong with the mom?

Like, 

[00:23:05] Michael DiMartino: Well, it’s I mean, that’s super interesting. I was observation like I think. The way I was approaching it was that all the adults are dealing with their own shit and they, sorry for that. Uh, but, uh,

[00:23:17] Randi Rubenstein: I, well, I just said that I just F bombed. So you can say whatever you want now.

[00:23:20] Michael DiMartino: Um, and so they’re, they’re kind of in their own world and they’re not connecting with their kids in the way that, you know, we would hope, uh, us as parents would, would connect with our kids. Um, so the kids are a little bit left on their own to figure stuff out. 

So I don’t, yeah, I don’t see them as being like super, deliberately terrible. But they got their own, you know, as you get older, you realize like, Oh, my parents, you know, for whatever reason, like they had their own issues that, you know, they were trying to deal with. And, um, obviously that stuff comes through in the generations and the kids end up, you know, experiencing that as well. 

So what I was trying to show was like a picture of like the whole community is sort of dealing with these different aspects of grief. And not doing it well, you know, for most of the book. Uh, and then by the end, they, they start to make some connections and start to like, have a little more empathy for each other. 

And, um, and another thing with the theme of grief too, that, you know, and in my research for the book, it was like, and in my own life, like, you can feel like when you go through a loss or something, like you can often feel like my loss is the worst loss possible. Or my grief is, is bigger than your grief and it becomes this sort of like comparison almost you’re comparing yourself to other people and and since all these that’s what I was imagining these characters in their headspace is like they’re just dealing with their own grief and they think their grief is the most important at that moment so they’re kind of blocking out you know other people in a way.

[00:25:02] Avery Rubenstein: That was one of the lines I wrote down. It’s no one’s grief is unique. I thought that was really powerful. 

I was so interested by the voice that the book is written like, do you remember being 14 that well? Because you nailed it. Like,

[00:25:17] Michael DiMartino: I don’t but

[00:25:20] Avery Rubenstein: like, I just, even what my mom was saying, like how the adults just don’t get it, it felt more like there was almost this 14 year old, like, film over the adults, and only the things that they said to him mattered. And you knew, as an adult reading the book, like, oh, you know, she’s going through her own, the mom’s going through her own grief, and she has bills to pay, and she’s stressed out, and she can’t connect with her kid, But it almost didn’t matter because you’re reading the book through a 14 year old’s eyes, and he doesn’t give a shit, like, he just cares how she’s treating him.

And the way that he, like, even the self hatred that he felt was so 14 year old, like, how he jaded even his acts of kindness. Like he kind of was like, well, I had selfish intentions, even though it was an anonymous act of kindness. And I just, how did you capture that voice? How did you draw on that 14 year old’s voice so profoundly?

[00:26:12] Michael DiMartino: Oh, thanks for saying that. Um, yeah, I think part of it is just my natural tendency is for for writing for younger audiences. Like I’ve tried to write more adult stuff and something about it doesn’t click yet or hasn’t clicked yet. And when I’m writing for, you know, a voice for a younger kid or a teenager, it just sort of flows.

Um, but yeah, I think, I think as I was writing too, I was trying to remember like being a kid and being in my, you know, I was an artistic kid drawing in my room, sort of introverted, you know, like, like all the thoughts that were going on in my head that I wasn’t voicing. I didn’t know how to like express myself in that way back then. I’m sure that’s still in my subconscious there and able to draw on that kind of stuff. 

Um, I have memories obviously of that time. Um, and most of them are, are good memories. I grew up in New England. So the book set in Massachusetts, I grew up in Vermont. So I was, you know, drawing a lot on just kind of life back then in the early 80s. So like the kid, yeah, Jack in the book is like riding his bike. all over town, like, that’s totally what I would do. I’d ride to my friend’s house and stuff. And like, that was just a kind of normal thing was like, you’d ride a few miles, you know, down to, to meet someone at, to get some ice cream or something like that.

[00:27:34] Avery Rubenstein: Mm hmm.

[00:27:35] Michael DiMartino: So yeah, I think it’s, it is a bit, you know, when you’re writing, you do try to, you’re embodying the character, but you’re also, you know, drawing out parts of yourself to, uh, to make it sound believable and realistic.

[00:27:47] Avery Rubenstein: And I appreciate that this story wasn’t wrapped up in a neat bow at the end. 

[00:27:52] Randi Rubenstein: Well, That’s what I was going to say. You know, I don’t know. My brain’s kind of going into this place of. You know, one of the, I think, battles of modern day parents and parenting professionals is there’s this, there’s this whole thing where everyone wants to pretend they’re the perfect parent. Like they want to pretend to themselves, you know. They put all that, all this nonsense out on social media. Like nobody’s really sharing how it’s layered and it’s messy. 

And, and there’s something going on in my brain right now. Uh, it’s almost like we’ve been thinking that we’re supposed to raise kids over here in, you know. In this Western culture, um, as like, according to this, this perfect plan and this perfect script. It’s like a Disney movie, like good versus evil. It’s very simplistic. You know, this is what, this is how to be a good parent. This is how to raise a good kid. This is how to be a bad parent. This is how to raise a bad kid. And it feels like your stories are bringing more of, you know, an older sort of, you know, uh, a culture that’s been around for much longer. 

Like, like the concepts that are used, you know, or taught through their whole cartoon culture in, you know, the Japanese world. I don’t know if it’s the other Asian countries too, but I know it’s in Japan cause we were there recently and I saw it. It’s like a huge part of their culture. 

Being a human being is more layered. And, um, and there are lots of different parts of all of us and, you know, and so it’s like we’re so much of the book, the, it’s told from that 14 year old lens and you remember what it was like being 14 and how you felt about your parents. And there’s, and there’s all this evidence about why all the adults are just like not getting it. But then as the story unfolds and moves on, it’s like, then you start to like, see the adults as actual human beings more. 

And there were even parts where, like, he would soften about something and I was thinking, you should really let him or her have it because, like, like, I, I was like, really, you’re just going to let him off the hook that, like, I would have, like, let that mom have it. Um, but he was very forgiving and it was like then all of a sudden he would like soften. And and I don’t know I just felt like the characters had so many layers and um, and that’s not what I’m used to reading. I mean even in Judy Blume’s books like I loved her books. And her books she also it’s not just going to wrap up in a nice neat bow but um, but I didn’t feel like the characters had quite as many layers or as much depth as they did in this story.

[00:30:50] Michael DiMartino: Oh, thank you so much. Um, yeah, and part of that too is drawing, like, in the way we drew on Eastern philosophy, I guess, for, for Avatar and stuff. I was looking more, I guess, Western philosophy for this one. Like, I’ve, you know, read a lot of Stoicism and that’s like a philosophy that I connect with a lot. So Rennie, who’s kind of like a mentor figure to Jack in the book, um, you know, he talks about that a lot. And the idea that, like, we can’t always control, you know, what happens to us in life, but we can control how we respond to it. 

So that’s, you know, a theme that runs throughout the book and Jack thinking like, Oh, these terrible things have happened to me and life’s unfair. And, you know, very black and white view of the world of like, shouldn’t, shouldn’t, you know, good things happen to good people and bad things happen to bad people? And he sort of, you know, helps open his eyes to kind of more, the more gray area of life, and that, you know, these things happen to everybody, and it’s more about how you, how you come to them and how you face them than the, the event itself, you know.

[00:31:53] Randi Rubenstein: mm hmm.

[00:31:54] Avery Rubenstein: Yeah, yeah,

[00:31:57] Randi Rubenstein: I liked the stoicism, but I also feel like doesn’t it all connect? You know, it’s just like, I do think it, it connects to a lot of the things that are taught in the Eastern culture. It might just be in, you know, different words are used, but I felt like conceptually it’s kind of the same thing. You know, it’s like being one with nature, mysticism, um, believing in something way beyond yourself. 

[00:32:22] Michael DiMartino: Yeah, And I was reading, 

[00:32:23] Avery Rubenstein: the blending. 

[00:32:25] Michael DiMartino: Yeah, I was just about the, like the voice of the characters. Like I was, I was reading like books like Catcher in the Rye, which I had read years ago, but, you know, I was like, that’s like a classic, such a classic, um, young adult narrator voice, like such a powerful voice. Um, so I was reading that and some other books about grief and loss and stuff, um, that helped sort of inform how I was approaching the writing of this. 

Because it was also the, this isn’t a spoiler, but the, the narrator, it’s all first person. So it’s all from Jack’s point of view. So at times you don’t know how much he’s being honest, how much he’s not. It’s a very, you know, much like Catcher in the Rye, it’s like an unreliable narrator, you know?

And, and part of that is also like the mystery, there’s that mystery kind of aspect to the book of like, what actually there’s an, there’s a accident that happens in the beginning that kind of kicks things off and um Jack is being, and everyone is being very kind of talking around the the accident and what happened that day. 

And so um, I think that’s part of my bringing in things i’ve learned through writing for television and stuff of like the way you guys describe like, you know, you started reading and you couldn’t put it down. There are ways to, you know, like, like a mystery genre, like sprinkled throughout so that you want to keep, you want to find out what’s going to happen in the midst of this sort of like coming of age, you know, more literary type story.

[00:33:56] Avery Rubenstein: It’s funny that you said Catcher in the Rye was what you read, because when I was explaining the book to my boyfriend, I was like, it’s, it’s giving Holden, like, I was like, I know he’s not being honest. Like, and it’s, and it, but it wasn’t the sense that, that Jack was lying to the reader. It was more the sense of he’s 14 year old and that’s his reality. You know? Yeah. I think that that was communicated really well.

[00:34:19] Michael DiMartino: Yeah, and there’s a lot about denial, you know, how we can deny an event, we can deny our feelings about it, we can, and sort of retreat into our own bubble. And so that’s also kind of woven throughout the story.

[00:34:36] Avery Rubenstein: Mm 

[00:34:36] Randi Rubenstein: Well I also think, parents come to me and one of the most dreaded topics is death, you know? And, um, people get really freaked out. talking to their kids about death. And, um, and if somebody close to them or in their family dies, I mean, it’s like the dreaded topic. 

I just had a parent last week whose, they were like, you know, and my four year old, he, he all of a sudden is talking a lot about death. And the grandma was saying, do you think there’s something wrong at school? Is this, they were turning it into a whole thing. Um, I was like, okay, well, good thing we have audios about how to talk to your kids about death.

Um, like kids are curious and they hear about a thing and, um, but you know, it’s really interesting. I just had a grown man who is in his forties and he said he gets really activated by his daughter whenever she’s mean to their dog. And a story, he was like, I just get so incensed. And he remembered a story from when he was four and he kept having pets and they kept dying. He had Like the cat that died. Then he had like two guinea pigs that died. And then it was like maybe a fish or something.

And he remembers being four years old and saying to his mom like. Why does everything I love keep dying? And she didn’t know how to obviously how to talk to him or how to support him through it. And so now as a 40 something year old man, he’s like, I don’t know why I’m so activated by my daughter whenever she is too rough with our dog. It’s like something comes over me. 

And we really connected it back to this whole idea of death. And, and I said, you know, I mean, the circle of life, death, it’s the for sure thing. Like it was for sure that we were all born and it’s for sure that we’re all going to die, but nobody wants to talk about it. And I think when a, when a subject that affects all of us is sort of off limits or we don’t know how to talk about it, it becomes such a big issue. And so I love that. That this was incorporated into the story. Death was incorporated into the story, but in a way that I think it, I just think you really can help a lot of people to kind of understand that, like, it doesn’t have to be such a taboo subject.

[00:37:12] Michael DiMartino: Yeah, totally. And yeah, I should mention too, like, I’m a dad. I have two, I have twins, boy and girl, eight year old, boy and girl twins. And, uh, yeah, I mean, probably when they were four, since that, you know, the idea, the talking of death thing sounds very familiar where it’s, it’s just something that either they’ve heard, or it’s just, I think it’s just human curiosity of like, where did I come from? First of all, I’m just like, I’m this little being and where, where I just showed up in this world and then where do we go after, you know? 

And when we’ve had, my wife’s father passed away last year, and so we have had some, you know, moments of, of grief and death in the family. And yeah, we just try to just deal with it, honestly, and not try to pretend everything’s okay or, you know, and talk about how we’re feeling about it.

I mean, I think I grew up in a, in a house that was like loving, but not, we didn’t talk about emotions, you know, 

um, it was sort of an unspoken, you know, love. So growing up, I didn’t quite know how to. I think that’s why I retreated into art and writing and storytelling and stuff, because that was a way to express myself that I didn’t, I didn’t know how to verbalize it.

And I, you know, I still struggle with that at times, but, uh, I’ve gotten better. And, uh, so, yeah, with our kids, we just try to, put it all out there. I don’t know. The kids, kids are super smart. They’re way smarter than I ever imagined. They catch on

[00:38:44] Randi Rubenstein: They are. They’re, they’re so smart. And I mean, that’s why when I talk about like using stories, like Both Here And Gone as a bridge. It’s you have a kid, you know, let’s say you have a death in the family or let’s say you have, you know, I mean, this is going to be a story that somebody, uh, you know, an older kid has read, um, maybe a 10 year old, maybe a 10 or 11 year old. Well, I don’t know what, who did you really write this for? Like what

[00:39:13] Michael DiMartino: Yeah, it was like middle grade to YA. Um, you know, I think those things totally depend on the kid and like what they’re reading. Cause, you know, when I was a kid, I was reading like Stephen King in fifth grade, which, 

you know, probably wasn’t appropriate, but I, I enjoyed it.

[00:39:30] Randi Rubenstein: What, I mean, what age, what age would you, would you have been ready to read a story like this?

[00:39:36] Avery Rubenstein: I mean, I probably would have read this in like fifth grade.

[00:39:38] Randi Rubenstein: Yeah, I think so too, but you were reading Harry Potter in like second grade.

[00:39:42] Avery Rubenstein: Yeah. 

[00:39:43] Randi Rubenstein: But I think, you know, so let’s say if your kid is reading this, you know, fifth grade and then they ask you a question about death or somebody close to you or them dies, you know, all of a sudden we can, we could refer to, remember that book that we read? Remember, Rennie, remember, you know, this, and it’s like, remember that girl, Alyssa, remember that character? What was that character’s name?

And all of a sudden we’re referring to a story and we’re, and we’re talking about really hard topics, but it makes it, I, that’s where I am like, this, this is, this is a tool that we could use where it’s like, we’re not going to sit and like talk about our feelings necessarily. Because I think that can get awkward and, you know, a lot of us weren’t raised talking about feelings. We’re not therapists. Um, and then, and it also gets awkward for our kids if all of a sudden we’re talking about feelings, but we’re talking about characters and we’re talking about a storyline. Right? Like, like, I think that’s a really cool way to, to, to get through some hard things and use story as a tool.

[00:40:57] Michael DiMartino: No, I love that. Cause yeah, even with my son who’s, uh, we got a autism diagnosis for him and he, but he’s a huge reader and he’s fully into the Percy Jackson universe and reading all those books and so like, yeah, if I try to ask him a question about how are you feeling or how was your day or that like does not work. But if I talk to him about Percy Jackson and what Percy’s doing or what the characters are doing, like he can, you know, he’ll talk about Greek mythology all day long. 

So it is an amazing. I do. I mean, I’ve always loved stories, but especially now with my kids, like, we still read every night before bed. And, you know, I think it’s, and seeing them now come into their own and now they’re reading their books on their own is like a very proud parenting moment of like, all right, all those years of reading to them, you know, are paying off now. And just seeing them, a love they have of like stories and storytelling is really cool.

[00:41:53] Avery Rubenstein: Mm hmm. Yeah, we were we were talking last week about the power of storytelling. And like in some ways, you know, you can just like kind of make shit up and it creates a more magical universe for your kids to communicate different themes and like things you want to impart upon them. But like, even I feel like with Avatar personally, like, like, finding a big theme for me in that show was finding the beauty in death. 

Like, I mean, Aang’s whole people was genocided and then it’s about him experiencing their culture and rebuilding it. And like, Princess Yue has a sacrifice, but look, the beauty that came from it. 

And I, I mean, when my grandma died, I drew on, for some reason, the celestial something about the stars. I had a whole spiritual thing and it all connected to Avatar. I was like, oh my god, it’s like Princess Yue. Um, but I don’t know. I just think that stories are such a powerful way to communicate really intense themes, and Percy Jackson’s my favorite series of all time.

[00:42:56] Randi Rubenstein: I was about to say, I was about to say Greek mythology and Percy Jackson, maybe Avery has a taste of the tism because she sounds like she has a

lot in common. She has a lot in common with your son. Um, that’s, that’s cool. That’s cool. I mean, you know, the entire neurodivergent population, I think would say, um, yeah, like bond with me over like, don’t, please don’t ask me what I’m feeling in this body because a lot of times it feels overwhelming and I can’t even put it into words. And so now all of a sudden if we, if we bond with them over this thing that they’re really into and they get to like talk about it. 

To me, I think that’s empathy. Because I think it’s also not pushing someone to perform according to your agenda that’s going to make you feel better, like, Oh, I don’t have to worry about them as much because we’re, I’m covering my bases as a parent talking about X, Y, and Z. It’s like, you’re meeting them where they’re at. And where they’re at is his nose is in a book and he’s really into these characters, you know,

[00:44:03] Michael DiMartino: yeah. Totally. Um, yeah, there’s a definition of story that kind of is my mantra since I learned it, was like that a story is a single human mind trying to solve a problem. So like all these stories we watch or read, they’re really just, you know, it’s like this psycho technology to help you solve a problem.

So, like, if you think of, like, the genres you’re interested in or things like that, like, often those are, will help you understand, like, what you’re, what you’re looking for, or, like, what meaning you’re seeking, you know? Um, for some reason, I love, you know, crime mystery shows. I don’t, there’s something about, like, figuring out, I used to love puzzles. Like the whole, like figuring out puzzles, making sense, you know, like why does this world doesn’t make sense? And how do I make sense of it? And, you know, piece all these clues together to find some sort of understanding of it. You know, like,

[00:45:02] Randi Rubenstein: that’s wait, say this, it’s a, it’s a single my, wait,

[00:45:07] Michael DiMartino: a single human mind trying to solve a problem.

So like the character, you know, often we think of characters as like, Oh, they seem so real and they’re, you know. And while you’re reading them, they can feel that way, but they’re, they really are avatars in the other sense of the word, not the show, not the Avatar of the show sense of the word. 

Um, you know, they’re just these psychological plays playing out in your head. Like none of this is real, but they help you sort of like process through, um, thoughts or feelings or whatever. I mean, I, it makes sense what people are constantly drawn to different types of stories. Can, can binge, binge a series on Netflix. 

It’s like, you’re trying to get some meaning out of this stuff. And some of much like, I always liked the analogy of food. Like there’s some stories and shows and movies that are like very nutrient dense and can sustain you and give you like some good, good, uh, good. Good fuel. And then, you know, some of it’s junk food and we all know what those shows are, you know. 

And like, but you’re still trying to find some sort of meaning or some sort of, uh, I don’t know, guidance of like, how do I navigate this weird world? Oh, I’ll, Oh, what does this character do? How do they do it? And did that turn out good for them in the end or bad in the end? Like, uh, should I, should I follow their example or not?

[00:46:35] Randi Rubenstein: What would you say was the main problem that you were solving for Jack in this story?

[00:46:43] Michael DiMartino: Yeah, it was about. Coping with not just loss, but kind of uncertainty. Like how do we cope with uncertainty when life is, doesn’t make sense and is uncertain and you’ve experienced this loss. Like, it is following him. Like he’s making a ton of mistakes. Everyone is. but by the end you do see a, you know, a potential path forward. Um, so that was kind of the, the thing I kept thinking about as I was writing 

it.

[00:47:11] Randi Rubenstein: Mm hmm.

[00:47:12] Avery Rubenstein: That’s, that’s such an interesting take, you know, taking from a character, things that you want to embody. I, you know, as a woman, I’ve been feeling frustration. And there’s this series called Throne of Glass, my favorite, now my favorite series, you know, gone past Percy Jackson. 

But, um, I don’t know if you’ve read the series, but it’s just about this like really strong female main character. She, and I think I’ve read it so many times, but I just, in the past, like, it’s kind of disgusting how much I’ve been reading it. But in like two weeks, I finished the whole series again. And all the books are like 800, it’s 800 pages. It’s disgusting. But, um, I was like, What am I trying to solve? And, and I was like, why am I reading this again? Why am I reading this again? 

And I think she has so much rage. And I was like, what is she doing with it? You know? And it kind of helped me shape it and realize it’s not rage, it’s sadness. And she’s doing, she’s doing things to better the world. She’s not just letting it consume her. And I kind of, you know, embodied her character and her strength. And so it was interesting to hear that point of view. 

[00:48:23] Randi Rubenstein: and for anyone listening to this far off in the future, we’ve, it was just the present, the 2024 presidential election. So that’s what you’re referring to. I’m,

[00:48:32] Avery Rubenstein: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Mm-hmm

[00:48:34] Randi Rubenstein: That’s so interesting. And it’s interesting to think, like, have you always been into crime dramas?

[00:48:40] Michael DiMartino: I guess mysteries in general, um, like even though we created a fantasy show, like I wasn’t super into fantasy growing up. Um, that kind of came later, later in life. Like, but I do, you know, some of, like books, I remember having a huge impact me on on me as a kid was there’s a book called Where the Red Fern Grows, which was

[00:49:02] Randi Rubenstein: Oh, yeah.

[00:49:04] Michael DiMartino: and it’s about this boy and his dogs. And I still remember, like, it’s 1 of the few books I remember crying when I was a kid, you know, like, there’s like, I think the dogs die in the book somehow, and it’s very sad. And so, like, I think of those, I’m like, there’s something, some of those have stuck with me, I think, even though I haven’t read them, you know, for years.

Uh, but, you know, I usually read, I mean, I read some mystery stuff, but it’s more, I guess you would call it literary or whatever. And now I’m like, I missed out on, like, reading the classics. So, like. I’d never read like Charles Dickens before. And I’m like, Oh, this is why he’s so popular. This is a really good book. You know, David Copperfield’s an amazing book. So like, I’ve kind of rediscovering or discovering for the first time, like, you know, long dead authors that, uh, you know, are, are considered classics, but they’re considered classics for a reason. 

And I think, you know, sometimes, you know, I read some of those things in high school and college, but, um, yeah, I definitely appreciate them in a much different way now. Not only as a storyteller, but just being grown up now and an adult and having lived some life. Um, there’s some really, really great books from the past. So, 

[00:50:20] Randi Rubenstein: Yeah. Yeah Avery do you have any sort of final questions? I know you had some prepared.

[00:50:28] Avery Rubenstein: I have goober questions. Um, first one, what element would you bend?

[00:50:36] Michael DiMartino: I’m clearly the airbender people. If people could see this, I I’m bald. The airbenders are bald. Uh, I’ve always been, uh, compared to Aang. So that would be my, my

[00:50:47] Avery Rubenstein: It’s a good comparison. Um, and then this one is more just like something that I’ve noticed. There’s a lot of people who were, you know, diehard fans of the original Avatar series, and then had these criticisms for Korra. And I loved Korra. Like, I thought it was fantastic. I mean, she’s so badass. How much of that criticism do you think was purely based on the fact that she was a female main character?

[00:51:16] Michael DiMartino: Uh, 90 percent

[00:51:20] Avery Rubenstein: Yeah.

[00:51:20] Michael DiMartino: There’s definitely some of this and it’s just, I mean, it’s anything with fandoms where it’s like, they love the original thing. If it deviates, you know, we purposely tried to do something completely different from,

[00:51:32] Avery Rubenstein: Mm hmm.

[00:51:33] Michael DiMartino: but like a different type of Avatar. So Aang is this twelve-year old, reluctant hero, goofy kid. And we wanted like the brash, you know, tough, female who like, wanted to be the hero. She was like, going after it and it was people around her saying like, you’re not ready. You’re not ready. That sort of thing. I mean, that’s what I think any good story is, is like, you see the character make these mistakes and they,

you know, you can, as the audience, you’re saying don’t. That’s not the right choice. But if they always made the right choice, I don’t know that it would make a very interesting story. So, yeah, I love, I mean, Korra has a really cool journey. That’s very different from Aang’s, you know,

[00:52:16] Avery Rubenstein: Mm hmm. Yeah. And she felt less, she felt less, almost less reliable than Aang, but, except when she was like fighting, obviously, because you’re like, she can beat up anyone, but, yeah, he felt kind of always very wise, even though he was in the body of a 12 year old. She was a little more chaotic, and I appreciated that. It felt more realistic, you know. Yeah, I loved Korra.

[00:52:40] Michael DiMartino: cool.

[00:52:40] Avery Rubenstein: and then what parting question? I’m not sure if you can answer this, but there’s rumors of the upcoming movie. Do you have anything to do with that?

[00:52:49] Michael DiMartino: Yeah, I mean, I, I can’t tell you what we’re working on exactly, but the movie has been announced and yeah, my, my job now is, um, basically overseeing the Avatar universe as we grow it out. So we started Avatar Studios, me and Brian and, you know, a lot of super talented people, um, with the goal of like expanding these stories out. So the first big project is going to be a feature film in 2026. 

And, um, you know, while there’s like, there’s lots of video games, we have a YA novel series of like past avatars like Kyoshi, Roku, Yongchen. Um, so those have been fun to work on. Um, but yeah, it’s a different role now. It’s more like kind of creatively supervising things rather than like hands on writing episodes and stuff like that. But it’s a cool new challenge.

[00:53:45] Avery Rubenstein: Cool.

[00:53:45] Michael DiMartino: There should be plenty of new Avatar stuff in the coming years.

[00:53:50] Avery Rubenstein: That’s awesome. I

[00:53:51] Randi Rubenstein: Um,

[00:53:52] Michael DiMartino: the next generation. 

[00:53:54] Avery Rubenstein: know,

[00:53:55] Randi Rubenstein: And are there going to be more books? 

[00:53:58] Michael DiMartino: Uh, for me, I hope so. Yeah. I mean, that’s, that it’s kind of like my, my side gig, you know, is, is like we’re doing my own writing. I mean, since my day job is more like, not, I’m not going to say it’s not creative cause it’s very creative, but it’s, it’s, I’m doing less of the hands on creative work I used to do. Um, so I still have that itch of like, of wanting to write and stuff. So yeah, I’ll, I’m going to keep, keep writing and hopefully people keep reading the books.

[00:54:28] Randi Rubenstein: Well, you’re, you’re, it sounds like you’re like, you’ve moved into the dad role and, and

[00:54:33] Michael DiMartino: There’s a lot of dad happening too. 

[00:54:35] Randi Rubenstein: Yeah, like, so yeah. So like you’re, you’re the dad, you’re the creative dad and, and you’ve got all these creative kids and they get to play and you’re like, okay guys, time to wash up for dinner. Um, but really secretly you’re like, but I want to play too. So now you’re writing. Yeah.

Um, I, you know, I have one last question. It did seem to me like, Rennie, I’m not going to spoil anything, but the Rennie character obviously, you know, turned out to be a beloved character. Um, it seemed like there was a theme of like, a lot of disappointing father figures. Or may, there was a lack of male role models, a lack of, a lack of, of male involvement with the kids. Like that seemed kind of like a theme throughout the book. And then Rennie showed up as like kind of this heroic figure who served, you know, in that role. Um, and I was curious, like, was that very personal? Is that,

[00:55:45] Avery Rubenstein: Like, Iroh.

[00:55:46] Michael DiMartino: It’s funny because we’ve, also in Avatar, we have like not great father figures throughout. And we’ve been asked like both me and Brian, like, is, is, did you guys have like a rough childhood with your fathers and stuff like? Uh, we both had like very, very nice fathers, you know, probably like a little bit absent, maybe kind of probably more like, you know, the, like Alyssa’s dad, who’s working all the time, that, that sort of thing.

Um, so. Yeah, it’s funny. I, I actually don’t totally know where that comes from, but it does seem to be a, a pervasive, uh, theme throughout. But yeah, I think it is, but through my life, I’ve, I have also had, like, teachers or mentor figures who have come in and, you know, I think more on the, like, creative side, um, or, you know, philosophical side, like, I had this high school English teacher who was this great guy who, you know, I think, you know, Got me excited about literature and stuff like that. So I think I draw on those figures too for the, the mentor figures. 

But yeah, it’s, it’s funny, Avery, because yeah, there’s someone left a review about the book and it was about like, Rennie’s the Uncle Iroh of this story.

[00:57:00] Avery Rubenstein: what I was thinking while I was reading 

[00:57:02] Michael DiMartino: So There’s some common themes. Yeah.

[00:57:04] Avery Rubenstein: Yeah. War. War hero.

[00:57:06] Randi Rubenstein: yeah. And it makes sense to me because also like the 70s and 80s, I mean, it’s like, the Reagan era and so many, I think men, it was just, yeah, like I need to be providing for my family, my, you know. And it was just, I mean, still, I think, I think there’s so much pressure on men, but I think at that time it was like my success my self worth is determined by how much I provide for my family. And so fathers were absent. 

And, um, and I’m seeing less and I, I still think there are some thought there’s a certain amount of absenteeism in many, you know, many dynamics, but I feel like it’s not like it was back then where that was just the norm. Like, you know, raising kids was the mother’s job and dads were busy. They were at work. They were doing more important things, right? And so, um, yeah, so I just noticed that theme. I was like, Hmm. 

Um, well thanks Mike. Um, so how can people, we’ll include the link, but what’s the best way for people to get the book?

[00:58:13] Michael DiMartino: Uh, yeah, you can, it’s available on Amazon. So you can go search the book both here and gone and Amazon. Uh, you could get an ebook or paperback. You could also, all my other stuff, uh, including the book is on my website, which is my full name, MichaelDanteDiMartino.com. DiMartino with an I. Um, and you can actually, you can buy the, if you don’t want to shop at Amazon, you can buy the paperback from my website directly. So, uh, yeah, and I hope people, uh, check it out. Thanks so much.

[00:58:46] Randi Rubenstein: Yeah. Thanks for being here. I hope

[00:58:49] Avery Rubenstein: Thank you. 

[00:58:50] Randi Rubenstein: Um, all right, thanks and everyone have a great week. Bye.

Thanks for listening today, guys. I hope you picked up some tips, tools, maybe some baby steps for creating more balance and boundaries in your life. And I just wanted to let you know, if you want to continue moving the needle forward in creating this for yourself, having a happier household, I want you to go to my website and check out mastermindparenting.com. We have three beginning programs, and if you need some accountability and more support then please look for the one that would be a good fit for you.

And, as always, we’re on all the social channels under Mastermind Parenting, on Instagram it’s mastermind_parenting. And, you know, periodically I do pop up on different Instagram lives, Facebook lives where I give you teaching and coaching and I love engaging with you live to help you help your strong-willed kids so that they can feel better, because when they feel better they do better, and I love, love, love getting to know you guys. 

So thanks for listening. If you like this podcast, please don’t forget to subscribe, rate and review. Super, super appreciative.