314: The Modern Classroom with Rob Barnett (sounds dreamy:)

[00:00:00] Randi Rubenstein: My name is Randi Rubenstein, and welcome to the Mastermind Parenting Podcast. At Mastermind Parenting, we’re on a mission to support strong-willed kids and the families that love them. 

Hi, everyone. This week, I have a treat. I have a fantastic guest, Robert Barnett. Robert Barnett co founded the Modern Classrooms Project, which has empowered 80,000 plus educators in 180 countries to meet every learner’s needs. Before that, he taught math, Computer science, English, social studies, and law from the middle school to university levels at public and private schools in the U S in Switzerland.

You graduated cum laude from Princeton university and Harvard law school. That’s not, I mean, that’s an impressive resume, sir, I just have to say. Um, speaks English, French and Spanish and lives in DC. He hopes his two young children will learn in modern classrooms someday. So thanks for being here, Robert, and welcome to the show. I think we’re gonna have a great conversation.

[00:01:04] Rob Barnett: Thank you, um, thank you for the warm introduction and you hit the most important part last, which is, you know, 2 young children, uh, who I, who I hope will learn in modern classroom someday.

[00:01:15] Randi Rubenstein: It’s funny because that’s really what I wanted to hone in on. And I wanted to say, like, before we started recording, Robert was like, I’m a little nervous because I’ve got two little kids. I haven’t been doing this parenting thing for very long. I don’t know. And I’m like, well, this podcast is about us bringing together resources and there’s no such thing as an all knowing parent, like even me with a 26 year old, a 23 year old and an 18 year old. I’m still trying to figure shit out. 

So that’s what we’re doing, but I really wanted to hone in on, tell me about this hope that you have for your two young children learning in modern classrooms someday. Like, tell me about that hope, that dream, what that means. I want to, I want to hear you unpack that.

[00:02:04] Rob Barnett: Yeah, I’d be glad to. And maybe I can start by sharing what it is that I mean by a modern classroom. Um, I started my career as a teacher, I was a high school math teacher. Actually, I was a teacher and then I went to law school and I didn’t like it much. So I went back to teaching. Um, but when I was a teacher, I was a high school teacher and I would stand at the front of my room and I realized that the students in my classroom, they all needed different things. 

There were some students who loved math, they wanted a challenge, they needed a challenge. There were some students who hated math, usually because they had missed something a few years ago and just fallen farther behind and lost confidence. And there were students that weren’t there at all. And so I sort of had to figure out, like, how do I meet each of these learners needs at the same time? 

And I remember, like, it’s kind of heartbreaking to be a teacher sometimes because you get to know these students and you want them all to succeed and you realize that one lesson per day that I’m giving from the front of the room, it’s not challenging, you know, David enough. And for Anna, it’s way too hard. It’s over her head. She has gaps and Troy’s not even here at all. So, like, what do you do? So I had to try to figure out a way to do that. 

And the, the brief summary of how I did that is instead of standing at the board, I would record my instruction on video. Short videos that I would give to my students. Now they could watch these videos in class or at home, they could watch at their own paces. I spent my time in class, instead of policing behavior from the board, I was sitting down with my students, I was getting to know them, I was building relationships, and I could make sure that they actually understood Lesson one before they moved to Lesson 2. And that’s so powerful for a young person to see that, you know, when I apply myself, I can understand Lesson one, and once I understand Lesson one, I can do Lesson 2 as well. 

So anyways, I did this as a teacher. My colleague did this as a teacher too. We said we have something worth sharing. We founded a non profit that, as you said, has now empowered teachers all over the world to adapt this model in their own communities.

And that, that’s all been great, but it’s interesting for me now as a parent, you know, my kids are two and four, my oldest will be in kindergarten next year, and I’m really starting to think, what do I want for him in school? And I, what I don’t want for him is to go into a big class where the teacher spends their time, you know, managing behavior and for him to be, bored because he already understands what he’s learning, or for him to be lost because he is missing something, or maybe he gets sick and comes back and he doesn’t know what’s going on.

And he’s four years old, so I have no idea what kind of, you know, student he will be. He’ll, he’ll excel in some things, I’m sure. He’ll struggle in others. And what kind of experience do I want for him? And I want him to have the same kind of experience I strove to give my own students, which is, you know, making learning accessible through technology and then having the time in class to sit down and and get to know them.

So that’s what I mean by saying. I hope that’s what I mean by a modern classroom. And that’s what I mean by saying I hope my, my sons will learn in that kind of classroom one day.

[00:05:19] Randi Rubenstein: What does it look like in elementary school?

[00:05:23] Rob Barnett: Great question. I think actually in elementary school, this model sometimes works. It’s more natural than in secondary school, because secondary school, you sort of think of all the students sitting at the desk, doing the same thing every day. It’s very rigid. And sometimes secondary school teachers think of them of themselves as these deliverers of content. Where I do think in elementary school, there’s more of a sort of small group, maybe station rotation model, fewer students, more relationship building. 

I think when you’re in a 2nd grade classroom or something, students are not prepared to be as self directed, perhaps as high school students. But if you, if you set clear directions for them and say, you know, this is when you watch the video. This is what you do after the video. You know, this is how you prove your mastery. This is how you advance. And you give them the opportunity to actually be independent with clear structure, it works really well.

Um, it’s been amazing for me to see, you know, 2nd graders sort of learning at their own pace, and I’ll visit a class they’ll say, oh, yeah, first I watch my video and then I find a friend and we practice together and then I demonstrate mastery. And if I, if I understand, I go on to the next thing. And if not, I go check with my teacher to get more support.

Um, I think young people rise to the expectation we set for them. So, if we tell them your job is to sit and listen, that’s what they learn how to do. If we tell them your job is to take control of your learning. They can do it.

[00:06:57] Randi Rubenstein: So there’s a lot in this model that it sounds like focuses on giving the kids agency.

[00:07:03] Rob Barnett: Absolutely, yeah, I think, we don’t want our children to just be passive consumers of information. You know, I certainly had classes when I was in school where I sat there and I could be daydreaming and the information was coming at me and I got some and missed others, wasn’t that useful. When I really learned it was because my hands were getting dirty, you know, I was in something. I was learning it. I was, I was taking control of my own learning. And so I think that’s something learners at all ages can and should do.

[00:07:35] Randi Rubenstein: Does your nonprofit focus on really training the teachers? Because the teacher is the one who’s making the videos or are they, is there a resource bank that they’re grabbing the videos from? Like, well, how does that work?

[00:07:50] Rob Barnett: Great question. Yes, first of all, we focus on training teachers and I use this model in public school in the middle of Washington, D. C. I use this model in a private school in the Swiss Alps and so we’re training teachers all over the place in all kinds of schools. I think if teachers, think this will work for them, um, it can. 

In terms of videos, it’s fine if teachers use videos they find online. Certainly, my kids, you know, love certain channels on YouTube, and that’s great. I found as a teacher that my students connected more with videos I created, and it was a really nice tool for parents as well. Sometimes parents say, well, they didn’t teach it this way when I was learning it, or, you know, I was teaching statistics. Some parents haven’t learned statistics, or they haven’t thought of it in many years. If my instruction is on video, now the parent can watch it. They can see how I teach it. They can help their student. They get to know me as well. 

So that was a nice, aspect to doing my own videos, and it might sound complex, but if you can get on a video call, you can record a video. You know, you start a Zoom call with yourself. You hit record. You explain something. You cut yourself off. You, you know, put that online and share it with your students. That’s a great way to deliver content to your, to your learners.

[00:09:16] Randi Rubenstein: What do you think about? Cause I know that like Khan Academy, would you say it’s consistent with this model? I mean, in terms of like the kids learning, you know, what is it called, like the reverse classroom where they’re learning, you know, um, they’re learning through video and then, the teacher’s role is more about, you know, it rather than like teaching content and delivering content during the class and then going home and doing homework, it’s like the kid consumes the content, let’s say through something like Khan Academy, and then the teacher’s there to actually help the work through the homework problems, right? So it’s, it’s, it’s almost like the reverse. Am I saying that right? Or how, what would you say about that?

[00:10:02] Rob Barnett: Yeah, absolutely. I mean, Khan Academy and similar things they’re, they’re great resources for students to watch. I preferred to make my own videos because I felt like that was more personal, but teachers use Khan Academy videos just fine. 

I think often the challenge for teachers is figuring out how the class itself should operate to get the most sort of learning out of those videos. So if I spend class time teaching the same lesson at the same time to all my students. Some are probably going to be bored, others will lost, be lost, others might not be there. If I say, go on Khan Academy and do this, maybe I’ve replaced my worksheet with a video or something digital. But I haven’t really changed the way that learning happens.

I think what we’re trying to do is change the way the classroom is operating, so it’s not that all students have to be doing the same thing every day. One student can be two lessons ahead. One student can be two lessons behind because they need more time, they need more support, they were absent. And I think, um, there’s a lot of great platforms out there. What’s often missing is the teacher training, empowering teachers to run classrooms that make use of videos effectively, you know, if you, if all you do is show a video instead of lecturing, you’re just using fancy technology. That the challenge is really how do you create a learning environment where you can sit down with your students and they can learn at the pace that’s appropriate for them.

[00:11:35] Randi Rubenstein: So the videos are really just an asset, but would you say the majority of your training with teachers has to do with relationship building? Or tell me, tell me more about how you’re training the teachers.

[00:11:49] Rob Barnett: Yeah, of course. I mean, what I wanted in my classroom was the students to watch a video for 5 or 10 minutes. Okay. I watched the video. I took some notes. Let me close the computer. Let me find a classmate who’s on the same thing. Let me work on that together to develop my understanding. And then when ready, let me meet with the teacher to show that I understand, and move on.

So that the video is a tool, an asset. Exactly right. And students, young people are on screen so much this day and age. The last thing we want is for them to be on screens the whole class. I think our training for teachers, it’s partly how do you create that asset the video, but also how do you manage sort of the chaos of a classroom.

[00:12:38] Randi Rubenstein: Yeah. 

[00:12:39] Rob Barnett: Some students are on lesson one, some are on lesson 2, some are on lesson 3, some were absent yesterday, some are ahead, some are helping each other. Like, that is important. You need good systems to organize that. You need to sort of unlearn sometimes what you were trained to do as a teacher, which is stand up and develop content. And that’s why I said it’s often easier for elementary teachers to do this because they’re used to that more dynamic environment with kids at centers or small groups.

But your average high school teacher, you know, has been trained to stand at the board and police behavior and deliver an explanation that most of the time is over some kids heads and too easy for others. It’s not effective. So we’ve got to help them unlearn, you know, traditional stand and deliver teaching and figure out how do I manage this classroom when young people are taking control of their own learning?

[00:13:34] Randi Rubenstein: And is a lot of your program training teachers with some of that, you know, just to use a, technical term, like classroom management, like, is there a lot of that in your program? Or,

[00:13:47] Rob Barnett: Yeah, there is classroom management in the sense of here’s how you create a learning environment where all students can succeed. Sometimes I think in the education world, classroom management means, like, how do you get kids to behave while you’re trying to deliver direct instruction? And I think that, you know, I was never successful in that, standing at the board and explaining something and, you know, using, points or consequences or hand motions to behavior. 

To me, the best control of behavior is keeping every student appropriately challenged and appropriately supported because young people don’t come to school saying today. I get to misbehave. They come to school saying today. I want to learn. They only misbehave, um, when they’re not learning, right? And too often, they’re not learning because they’re sitting through these one size fits all classes.

So we talk a lot about how to run an efficient sort of student led in some ways classroom. That’s what we mean by classroom management. Not, you know, not not how do you how do you get your kids to sit down and shut up. And and, you know, students do still act out and misbehave, of course. It’s much easier to address that behavior when you’re when you can sit down next to that student and say, hey. What’s going on? You know, how can I help you today? Um, because all the other students are learning independently from videos or each other. When you’re at the board delivering us one lesson every day, you get into these behavior showdowns, which are just nightmares, but when you can sit down with your students, you can, you can address the, you know, the causes of that, of that behavior.

[00:15:30] Randi Rubenstein: And do you help them with those strategies? Because, you know, relationship building, it’s, especially with kids that are being difficult. I mean, everyone who listens to my podcast has at least one, what we call strong willed kid. And these are the kids that are quite often the ones that teachers are like, Oh, did you get so and so, you know, in the break room, they’re like, did you, Oh, you’re, you’ve got so and so this year. Good luck. 

Um, and so what I help parents do is understand that, you know, it’s just like kids act on the outside the way they feel on the inside, right? So if we have a kid that’s not being cooperative, that’s not, you know, doesn’t seem like they’re coming to school to learn, they seem like they’re coming to school to cause problems distract other kids, seeking so much negative attention, right? Like, and these are the kids that quite often are considered the behavior problems. 

But teachers, and I know this because I have a lot of teachers, in fact, my kids teachers who, once they went and started having kids, they come back into my program. Um, you know, teachers quite often are, like, they don’t know how to get through to these kids. They don’t know how to break that barrier and to help this kid do better. So like how do you address that piece of it? It’s kind of a big piece. 

[00:17:06] Rob Barnett: Of course! I used to have that feeling as a teacher too, and I’m ashamed to admit it, but one challenge, a huge challenge for me at the start of my teaching career was students who were often absent because they would come into my room and I sort of felt like oh, gosh, the students here, like, they’re not going to know what’s going on. They’re going to be a disruption. Like, I’ve got to change my plan to make sure I can engage this student. Um, and like, I did feel disappointed when those kids showed up. 

And eventually, I sort of realized, like, Rob, what, what are you doing? Like, your, your goal as a teacher, this is actually my greatest opportunity, is these students who are absent, because they obviously Don’t feel welcome in school. I’m not making them feel welcome when I sigh when they walk in the room. So how could I create, if I put myself in that student’s shoes, could I understand why they’re acting out? And could I address that in some way? 

And so think about, it’s Thursday. You missed class Monday to Wednesday, you’re gonna show up, you’re gonna have no idea what’s going on, you know, through no fault of your own, and like, you’re, the teacher might call on you, you’re not gonna know what to say, you’re gonna, you know, talk back, or maybe you’re just gonna talk with your friends, or you’ll put your head down on your desk. And all of those behaviors, I think, appear to a teacher, like, you know, like problems. This is, this is not good. This, I wish this kid weren’t in my class today.

Um, but putting yourself in the student’s shoes, how could you create an environment where that student feels capable of success? Because if the student feels like, I can learn today. They’re going to want to learn. I mean, I don’t believe that kids come to school wanting to cause problems. They want to succeed. They just cause problems when they can’t succeed. So if that student can come in and pick up with a video where he left off the last day he was here, that’s great. 

If I have the chance to go walk over to him and he doesn’t disrupt my whole class presentation, you know, by arriving late, I can find the time to walk over to him and say, hey, how you doing? You know, they missed you in class. You all good to keep learning. That sort of thing is so valuable to a young person who’s struggling. And then I might say, you know, um, well, look, David’s ahead, um, David, can you come over here and help help Troy catch up? Like, you know, that’s a nice thing to be able to do that’s not possible when you’re trying to be the dictator that controls your room. 

But I don’t know my, my 4 year old seems pretty strong willed at times. Um, the way to address that is not for me to, you know, yell at him in front of his brother and my wife. The way is to find time to sit down with him and see what’s up. And so, um, I think that’s true for. Students in school and teachers. The question is, how do you create a classroom environment where it’s possible to have that kind of interaction?

[00:20:09] Randi Rubenstein: There was a program that I was trained in that was really about creating a school family, a classroom family. And they had a lot of rituals built in. And so for, you know, I think you’re talking about like the middle or a high school kid who’s got frequent absences, but on the elementary school level, you know, there was a ritual that whenever a kid was gone, and then they came back, and the teacher, you know, she would take roll or whatever, and she would see that this is a kid that has been out for a day, or however long. And so they had a ritual that, um, was you’ve been gone, you’ve been missed, where would you like your welcome back kiss?

And like there was, so they would assign jobs to all the kids in the classroom. So if this week you were the welcome back kiss person, you had like a little stick and, and, and so the whole class would say when the teacher realized, Oh, so and so is back. And then they would all say together, you’ve been gone and you’ve been this, where would you like your welcome back kiss?

And then the kid that had the role of being the welcome back kisser would come over with the little, you know, puppet thing. And like the kid might say here, and they would do it here. And that was a way to sort of, you know, welcome the child back into the community. I thought it was a little hokey when I first learned about it and the kids, they ate it up, right?

Because I mean, that speaks to such a basic human need is you see me and I matter. And these kids that, that are used to being behavior problems. They’re used to being seen by not doing what we want them to do, right? And just getting a lot of negative attention in their lives. Like to have a teacher come over and to reconnect with them and to let them know they noticed that they were gone and they’re so happy to receive them back. How can I support you? Like, I would imagine that is hugely impactful and yeah, I love that.

[00:22:15] Rob Barnett: It sounds like an amazing routine to me. I would have, I would have liked that. And you’re, you’re right that my experience is more in secondary school, but think for a second about a student who was not proficient in math in 4th grade. And 2 out of 3 Americans are considered below proficient in math by the time they’re in 4th grade and then you go to 5th grade.

 And you’re not, if you don’t understand 4th grade math, you’re not going to understand 5th grade. And maybe you’re not where you should be in reading either, and in 6th grade. 7th grade and 8th grade and every year you’re a little farther behind and then you show up in high school and how is that young person going to feel sitting in that room? They’ve already given up. 

And if teacher is just going to stand up there and say, today’s lesson is on, you know, finding the sine of a right triangle and you don’t know what a right triangle is and, you know, because you haven’t learned, like, you are going to be unhappy and you may act out. If the teacher says today, we’re going to learn this, but you have the time you need to learn it. I’m here to help you. You can work with your classmates because your job is not to sit and listen, but your job is to figure this out. Um, I think that can make a real difference for young people. 

And it’s not, it’s not a magic bullet. It doesn’t solve things overnight. But yeah, for the student who’s used to being treated like a problem, think about how they feel every day walking into math class. It’s, it’s miserable. How could we create a class where they learn, but where they also feel welcome? And where they look forward to like, Hey, wow, today I can, I can go in, it’s going to take me a little longer than my peers, but I’m going to understand something. Maybe I am good at math. Maybe I am good at school. Um, how do we create classrooms like that?

[00:24:03] Randi Rubenstein: I think it’s interesting and, incredibly innovative and also every parent I know is just panicked about technology and you know, Jonathan Chait wrote that book, and I think it’s been helpful for many parents to realize like, Oh, we, you know, the tech companies, there’s no restrictions. So we have to do more as parents to kind of band together and to hold off on certain things. 

It’s like, you know, I mean, it’s not that long ago that, to have, and I know in my community, if I had said to my kids in middle school, we’re gonna wait until you’re 16 for you to have a phone or for you to have access to, you know, the way everyone else is communicating, like that would have been really difficult. Because my kids were in a community and in a school where they would have been the only ones. 

And so it was like, I felt like I was stuck between a rock and a hard place. Like, I knew that giving them that device was taking away so much of their childhood. And, and also I knew middle school, starting in those middle school years, it sucks to feel other. And you’re gonna feel other in lots of ways. But like, here I am, because it’s for your own good, putting down these boundaries that now leaves you feeling very othered. Um, it was such a hard choice. 

And you know, and so now there’s, there’s resources. I think it’s becoming more of a conversation. More parents are like, oh yeah, we’re not doing any social media until they’re in high school or until they’re whatever age and I wouldn’t be the only one. Um, I think so many of us are panicked about AI and what this means and our kids being, you know, such a techie generation and they’re going to be, you know, people are lonelier than ever.

And what your model says to me is no, no, no. They’re going to watch a video of instruction for 5 or 10 minutes. The rest of the class is all based on working together, collaborative learning, relationship building. Um, like it seems like you’re using the resource of technology to, to learn in a way that’s smarter and not harder in, in the sense that we’re using these tools so that we can focus the majority of our time on being together in relationship. How would you edit that or?

[00:27:00] Rob Barnett: No, that’s, that’s very well said. Um, you know, in some way, I think the original sort of, you know, self paced mastery based classroom goes back to the one room schoolhouse. Where students were, you know, getting what they needed from a teacher. And it wasn’t based on every student gets the same thing today.

And I think we moved to sort of an industrial age based model of education that has gotten us away from that, where we sometimes feel like kids are these outputs and we have to fill their heads with certain skills. And the result is that a lot of students, you know, hate school, feel like problems, and don’t learn what we want them to learn anyways. So you’re, you’re exactly right. The goal is to use technology to make learning more human. 

And I think we know that technology can be used for, for good or for bad. You know, I’m on FaceTime with family members connecting through technology. That is an amazing use of technology. If I, you know, can figure out how to use it wisely and, you know, I’m not watching sports highlights when my kids are sitting next to me. You know, there’s, there’s good and bad, um, uses of technology. We’re trying to do the same thing. And I think the, that concept of the instructional video does make the sort of self paced collaborative learning possible as a tool. So it is using technology to make classrooms more human. 

And I share your skepticism about AI, by the way, you know, I don’t want my kids teacher to be typing into a chat bot and getting an AI response. When my kids are in school and they have a question I want them to raise their hand and the teach, you know, the teacher to be able to come over and answer it. Sometimes in a whole class setting you’re scared to raise your hand because what if it’s a stupid question or, you know, like, I want them to be able to get that response from a human from a person. 

And maybe the teacher is busy and says, Hey, you know, ask your classmates. That’s great too. Students should be free to work together in school. That’s the whole purpose of going to school is, you know, being in a room with your classmates and your teacher. Otherwise you just sit at home, you know, on your computer, and I think we know from COVID how that went. So, yeah, how do we make the classroom more human and, you know, technology, I think has a role to play in that.

[00:29:22] Randi Rubenstein: It’s very interesting, um, and it almost sounds counterintuitive, but I feel like it makes so much sense. I mean, if I think about my kids, um, they hated school. You know, and they were not behavior problems and they did fine and, um, but ultimately it was just like, no, it’s boring. That’s the bottom line. It’s boring. And I kind of felt like they had the worthiness to know that they deserved something better. 

And I chose to send them to mainstream schools, like I wasn’t making a choice to homeschool them. I I I was like, you know it’s just something you got to do. And um, and when they had, especially like middle and high school, when they actually had an engaging teacher that really cared about them, that they really felt like got to know them, maybe even knew their sense of humor, knew their personality. Like shout out to Ms. Fleming, because my son, Corey, who was just like, yeah, school, like, what’s your favorite class? Like, none. It’s boring. It’s not engaging. You just do what you have to do. And he was a fine student. 

And then in 12th grade, he had Ms. Fleming. And Ms. Fleming was a little bit of a rebel and a smart lady. And she really cared. And she, like, she connected with them. And he, he, just soaked up every moment. I mean, every night at dinner, we were hearing, like the story of the day was something about Miss Fleming’s classroom and, um, some exercise they did some, and it was all such human moments.

You know, she did a morning meditation. She did a, uh, a five minute little sort of, meditative thing where they came in and they had to choose their feeling word that represented their day so far. And, and then she would like, you know, do some kind of meditative little, like she brought them into their bodies. And then she was teaching English. Um, he learned so much in that class. And I just think that you know, we can’t even keep up with technology, but I think that what’s coming is this, this value of human, feeling like a human and connecting with other human beings and bringing back something simple, like, like we are designed.

I didn’t know that I liked learning. Like I knew I liked learning when I was a little kid and then I forgot because my education was not great. And then I remembered that I liked learning as an adult when I just started learning about shit that I was interested in, you know, whatever it is. Um, and I was like, I’m obsessed with learning. How come I didn’t know that for so many years? Like we were designed to love learning and then we just kill it in kids.

[00:32:24] Rob Barnett: Yeah. I mean, there’s a saying in teaching, students don’t care how much you know until they know how much you care. And how do you show that to your students? You know, maybe, maybe you stay after school or something, or you do a club, or you engage with students outside of class, but you should be able to show that in class and relationships just take time to build and intention to build. And we’re, we’re trying to help teachers figure out how to create the time and space to build those relationships. 

I think, you know, nowadays, if there’s something new you want to learn, you know, maybe you sign up for a course at your local community college and you go every day and you sort of hope that you’ll get what you want. But when there’s something I want to learn, like, I’m going on YouTube. I’m trying to figure it out.

[00:33:13] Randi Rubenstein: Obsessed with YouTube, obsessed with podcasts, obsessed with YouTube, obsessed with, I mean now it’s like why would I even read a book when I can listen on one point five on you know and if it’s a book on on my Audible app and and I can do it during the all the in between moments of life. And if it’s a book that like, I find myself listening to, Oh, I need to listen to this again and again, then I’m going to order it because I want to see it in print and I’m going to solidify that learning that went into my ears, right? By seeing it on the page and highlighting and doing all those things like, I use technology to learn better. So why wouldn’t we be doing those same methods with our kids and all of these, you know, core curriculum concepts that we want them to learn growing up,

[00:34:05] Rob Barnett: Yeah, that’s that’s exactly right. I mean, I had to fix my bike recently and I was on YouTube trying to figure it out. And then I went in my garage. I’m fixing the bike and then it wasn’t totally working. So I went to the bike shop and there’s a mechanic there who can also explain it to me. 

So there’s a limitation to what I can get from the video, but I learned a lot. And then when I had that, you know, I spoke to him for two minutes, but it made sense to me. He gave me that like piece that was missing. And so it’s the combination of the video and the human. And you know, that’s in my neighborhood now. And I feel like I have a local bike shop in the neighborhood. And if I, you know, if I need help, I can go and Phil will help me out. There’s just a feeling of. community and warmth that comes from that human interaction.

[00:34:50] Randi Rubenstein: That’s right because when I’m learning these things, whatever it is that I’m interested in learning well, guess what I do the next day? I’m talking about it with my, you know, the members in my community. I’m talking about it with friends. I’m inviting maybe the author onto the podcast to have a conversation about it, exactly the same thing, right?

It’s like, okay, I’ve learned it, but, we’re pack animals, like we’re meant to be in relationship with each other. So now I’ve learned it and now it’s like, it’s like your model where kids are getting together in little pods and they’re collaboratively learning, right? Like, like they’re consuming the videos, but then they’re getting together and they’re working together and maybe, maybe even helping each other. Right. I’m imagining. 

[00:35:39] Rob Barnett: Yeah, of course, that’s, you know, that’s, that’s what it’s all about. That’s how we learn. And that’s the value of going to school. So sometimes when the teacher is, you know, when I was standing at the front of the room, trying to explain something, it took might take me 20 minutes to explain because I’d have kids coming in, interrupting and control behavior. And a student would say, oh, Mr. Barnett. Sorry. I missed that. Could you repeat it? Um, and like, it just took a long time. 

I could explain the same thing in 5 minutes on my video because there’s no interruption. The student who’s late can start from the beginning when they get there late. The student who needs to watch it again can just pause and re watch. You know, the student who understands it, I’m not asking my students, hey, just, just quiet for 20 minutes while I explain this. You know, the students are free to move around the room and, and speak with one another. And, you know, I would often have all the students who are on lesson two, hey, sit at this table today. So you all can work together and if you have a question, I’ll just come over here and answer your question. 

And, you know, after this style of learning is different for students, but after a while, I honestly felt like I’m coming to school. I’m going to hang out with my students and I’m going to help them learn. And it wasn’t like I’m coming to school to put on a performance, and, you know, I really hope so and so doesn’t show up because they’re going to ruin the class’s mood. 

It’s like, all right, let me come in. Let me see what people need. Let me help them out. Um, love to catch up with these people here. How the game was last night. Like, that’s great. That’s, the teachers I know they didn’t go into teaching so they could, you know, police behavior while explaining things. They went into teaching because they wanted meaningful relationships with young people. And so I’m trying to figure out how do you create a classroom where that’s not just possible, but where that’s the whole point?

[00:37:32] Randi Rubenstein: I agree. I agree. So tell me, when you think about parents. I think parents struggle so much. I mean, you know how many times I’m telling parents, do not sit with your kids and do their homework with them. 

it’s a hard sell that what we want to do is we want to help kids to develop agency. And if you’re there caring about their work more than they are, it becomes your work. Um, like this is their experience. This is their process. All you are, you know, you’re not the sage on the stage. You’re the guide on the side at times when it’s absolutely necessary, but you really want them to, this to be their business and for them to have a relationship with their teachers. So what is the role of the parent in this model?

[00:38:20] Rob Barnett: Yeah, great question. And this is where I get a little nervous because my parenting journey is only at its beginning. I mean, I think one thing is, if you’re a parent, and your teacher says, I’m using this model called modern classroom. I think parents often feel a little skeptical. Like what? You mean, my students just going to learn from computers and you’re not going to teach? One thing I would say is, you know, I think it’s worth understanding what your teacher’s doing, why they’re doing. Why they’re doing it and you really have a role if your teachers making instruction available online for you, you have an amazing opportunity to sort of engage with that learning, figure out who your teacher is and try to support that at home. So, while parents are often skeptical, I think, I think there’s an opportunity. 

Um, you know, if you’re, this is totally new to you and you’ve never heard of modern classroom and neither has your teacher. You know, like I think, I think it’s really important to respect teachers professional judgment and the way that they do things. And as a teacher, I know, I didn’t always look favorably upon parents saying you should teach this way. You should teach that. Do this, do that. But I do think there’s a way in which you can just, you know, nicely say, Hey, I was listening to a podcast. I learned about modern classrooms. It’s a nonprofit that has free resources for teachers. Would you be interested in checking it out? Um, so, you know, I do hope that parents listening who find this appealing will find that, you know, a gentle and tactful way just to share this with teachers or principals or whoever.

And then I think the third thing you’re, you’re asking is if I’m a parent and I’m at home, how do I support my student in learning, regardless of what’s happening in the class? And I, I agree with everything you’re saying, like, you know, what we have to get is students to understand that they’re responsible for their learning, right? I know how to read. I know how to find the sine of a triangle. Like, you know, it’s the students who need to learn and develop the skills in that process. And the more we spoon feed it to them, or show them the answer is just to get through this problem. That’s not doing any good in the long run.

And so I think you might think, the role that I think a parent or a teacher plays in education is providing encouragement, showing the young person where they can find resources, you know, creating resources that the young person can use. Checking to make sure the young person understands, but not not doing the work for them. Right? If I’m solving the problem at the board and my students are sitting and just watching passively, and then I say, okay, onto the next problem, that’s not good, you know, I gotta support them, encourage them, make sure they can do it, and then it’s on to the next thing.

[00:41:04] Randi Rubenstein: Yeah, and I also think like, my kids, um, well two out of three liked doing their homework, you know, sort of like at the table in the kitchen. And I was usually just in there, sort of busying myself, right? Like they want to know you’re around, but you’re there if they should need you. But rather than I, I, there was a mom years ago and she told me how she managed, you know, how she handled the homework. And I was like, so you’re like the hall monitor. You’re like walking up and down the halls, checking on people. She’s like, kinda. I’m like, nobody likes the hall monitor. 

Like, there’s an old Brady Bunch episode, probably too long ago for many of the listeners and you, but like, I think most of us know what the Brady Bunch was. And it was like, how much everyone hated the hall monitor. And so it’s like, we don’t want to be the hall monitor. And I remember just like being in the kitchen, but I had, I had boundaries. I was like, do not ask me a question that you can look up yourself. I’m not available for that. There’s a computer right there. You can go and look it up. You know, this is when my kids are in elementary school. 

And I have one, my youngest, who is the super baby. And he was like, which just means that, he’s not just the baby of the family because he’s so much younger than his siblings. He’s the super baby. And so he had sort of like four parents at times rather than just two. And he’s, he’s like, mom, what’s blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And I’m like, is that, would that be something that you could look up yourself and he’s like, I know, but it’s so much faster if you just tell me. And I’m like, and I’m not doing that. Nice try. 

Um, so he would still kind of push it and we would just kind of make a joke out of it. Um, but just being there and being available, and if they wanted me to quiz them, if they had a test, I’m like, I’m only quizzing you if you have already studied so much yourself that you’re pretty sure you’re going to get 100 and you just want to check. Are you pretty sure you’re going to master it and you just want to make sure? So if I start quizzing you and you miss multiples, like there’s more than one that you don’t know the answer, just know you’re going to go back to studying by yourself because it’s not my job to prepare you for the test. It’s your job to prepare you for the test. And I can just be here for some extra, you know, checks and balances, if you want that. 

Um, but like constantly putting that agency back on the kids, but I think so often parents think it is their job to sit with them and do every project to study all the spelling words and help teach it to them. Um, and I sometimes feel like teachers even make parents feel like that’s your job to do those things.

[00:44:06] Rob Barnett: I agree and I think, I think there are teachers who feel that way too. And I think it’s understandable why. You know, teachers are, teachers are often evaluated based on what their students know and so it, it, there’s certainly a feeling sometimes, like I got to make sure the kids just do this and get it all and then we’re on to the next thing.

I mean, I think we need to let, young people struggle. And sometimes that means letting them fail. And at the start of this conversation, we talked about putting students in control of their learning. Sometimes that means that students will make bad choices and they won’t study for the quiz or they won’t make good use of their class time and then they’ll reach the quiz and they will fail. Um, and I think we have to be okay with that as teachers, as parents, because if we don’t do that, um, it’s worse. Our students aren’t going to learn to control their learning. 

It was painful for me when I would start a new year with new students and they would, you know, they’d say, oh, great. Mr. Barnett’s not on us all the time. Like, we can just talk. We don’t have to do it. And then they hit the first test and they, you know, their scores aren’t good. And I say, how are, how are you using your time in class? And then they say, okay, now, now I get it. And maybe it took three tests for some of them to get that. But yeah, we have to let students struggle. We have to let them walk over to the computer and type something in instead of getting the answer handed to them. 

And sometimes that means they’re going to do poorly on the test. That’s okay. What we’re, what we’re trying to do is, you know, develop the human that knows how to learn and confident in their ability to do so.

[00:45:44] Randi Rubenstein: I agree and even me saying the I think it could be misconstrued, unless you know, you’re gonna get a hundred don’t ask me to quiz you. Was not saying I expect you to get a hundred. It was prepare yourself. Frankly, I don’t know if I should admit this out loud, but I did I never looked at any of my kids report cards, ever.

And I’ve had three now that are, you know, college or beyond. And um, I never looked at progress reports, report cards, anything. They told me their grades and of course I had to sign things, but I wasn’t interested. I was just interested if, are you proud of what you got? Okay. If not, then let’s figure it out. There’s something there, you know, there’s something to figure out. Maybe you need an extra resource Maybe the way the math teacher’s teaching isn’t making sense to your brain. Okay. I’m happy to help you find other resources. Or for you to go or to take you to school early to go in early and meet with the teacher whatever it is 

So I really didn’t put those kind of demands on my kids. Um, I really didn’t care about grades. And funny thing is that surrender energy of, this is actually your business. They all cared very much about their grades. so when they didn’t get the grades that reflected what they felt proud of, then they, they were in a bad mood. They were like, Oh, I got the report card. And I was like, yeah, not so good. But it was their business, you know? 

So I just think that, um, there’s a lot that needs to shift in terms of how parents think about education, how parents think about their roles, and also like being open minded to our world is changing at a rapid pace, so wouldn’t it make sense that the way we’re educating our kids needs to change too?

[00:47:46] Rob Barnett: Yeah, absolutely. And I think sometimes teachers always say, oh, kids aren’t motivated. They lack intrinsic motivation. But what conditions are we creating for them to develop that intrinsic motivation? And if they see school as an exercise of, you know, carrots and sticks, um, not going to work. We got to figure out. It sounds like, you know, I’m going to, I’m going to take you take your advice here. Um, you know, sounds like we got to figure out a way and you did figure out a way to give your, your kids that intrinsic motivation.

[00:48:16] Randi Rubenstein: Well, I think you have to believe hard in this is their business, and my role is not to care more about this than they do. I mean, it was funny. My, I have a little niece and when she she’s in third grade now, but when she was in first grade, she was, she would come over here on Monday afternoons after school, and again, she would do her homework at the kitchen counter. And I would just be in the kitchen, like making dinner or doing something. 

And I remember when she was just learning how to spell. You know, in first grade they’re giving them spelling words and she had to pr, she had to write her spelling words. And so she would sit there and she’s like, Aunt Randi, how do you spell and how do you spell and how do you spell?

And I said, I said, listen, I’m not gonna tell you how to spell it because the way you learn how to spell is by sounding it out. And you’re not supposed to spell everything perfectly. The way it makes sense to your brain is taking the time and just sounding it out. And then when your teacher corrects it, or if you look at after you’ve done it, if you look back at the word and see that, Oh, the way I sounded it out is not the way it’s spelled. And then you go and correct it yourself. Like that’s how your brain is meant to learn and then remember the next time. But if I just tell you how to spell it, it’s not going to be as impactful. 

She was in first grade and she was like, Oh, okay. She never asked me how to spell a word again. I mean, we underestimate what kids are capable. It’s like, you know, it’s like they just need to know why, why we’re not giving them all the answers. But once you give it to them and it’s makes sense, they’re like, Oh, got it.

[00:49:53] Rob Barnett: You would have been a great modern classroom teacher.

[00:49:57] Randi Rubenstein: I mean, because I, I, I know that, that this really is and that’s why I think I invited you on the podcast because I was like, I know that I sort of hate traditional education. And yet, you know, my kids went in middle and high school to a fairly progressive school and I still don’t think they got the best education. I mean, they never stopped saying school’s boring, we hate school. So that to me is the, the report card of the school. 

You know, like if humans are designed to learn and you go to school and you’re learning and every teacher is like a Miss Fleming, you love school, right? And so you great and so if you come and you say yeah, yeah school is school, you know, nothing great. You know, but I kind of was like yeah in a perfect world maybe I would have homeschooled you. Maybe I, I think I was too lazy. I didn’t feel like it. So we just put up with what, with, you know, something that I wasn’t super thrilled about, but it was just, I was like, it’s fine, whatever. 

Um, but I love the idea that this, that, you know, a model like Modern Classrooms is, is becoming more and more mainstream. And the fact that you made this a nonprofit. I mean, it’s like there’s no excuse for more schools not to adopt this.

[00:51:31] Rob Barnett: Well, I hope I hope everyone listening will agree you. And I hope, you know, teachers in schools everywhere will, um, because I think I think you’re right. And it’s such an indictment on our system that so many students survive school, you know, teachers get through the year and students survive school.

And it shouldn’t be like that. Learning is an amazing thing, students should go to school excited to learn. They should feel proud when they leave. Teachers should, you know, feel like they’re getting to know their students and they’re they’re succeeding. And, um, you know, a lot of Modern Classroom educators feel that way. And I’m proud to be part of that movement in that community.

[00:52:12] Randi Rubenstein: Okay, so leave everyone with, how do they, you know, learn more from you? What do they do next with this information?

[00:52:21] Rob Barnett: Sure. I mean, I have a book, um, coming out. It’s called Meet Every Learner’s Needs. I call it 10 percent memoir, 10 percent manifesto and 80 percent manual. It’s my story. It’s what I believe about education. And it’s how a teacher can do this in their classroom. So if you, you know, if you want the book or the audio book, that’s one place.

Um, as I said, Modern Classrooms Project is a nonprofit. We give all of our materials away for free. They’re mostly aimed at teachers, but I think parents can gain a lot from just seeing. Understanding this approach to teaching, perhaps finding resources to share with their kids schools, or learning things they can use around the kitchen table for homework. And that’s at ModernClassrooms.Org. 

So, um, my publisher won’t be super happy, but that’s okay. You know, I’d say go to our website. You know, watch videos of this in action in a fourth grade classroom, in a second grade classroom, in a high school classroom, you know, learn what the approach is about. And then if you really want to understand where it came from, why it works, how it works, um, I hope the book will be a good resource as well.

[00:53:26] Randi Rubenstein: And is the book out yet, yet, or when is it coming out?

[00:53:30] Rob Barnett: Well, I don’t know when this episode will be aired, but it comes out February 5th.

[00:53:33] Randi Rubenstein: Oh! February 5th. Okay, so you’ll send me the links for people to order and make sure that when we air this episode, people can order the book.

[00:53:43] Rob Barnett: Okay.

[00:53:45] Randi Rubenstein: And we didn’t spend this conversation talking about your story. So you, so now that everybody’s intrigued, they have to order the book to learn more about how Modern Classrooms even came to exist.

[00:53:58] Rob Barnett: My story is less important than the work that our teachers are doing every day, but I do think, I was a teacher, I struggled, I developed this method in my own classroom to meet the diverse needs of my students. And if, if my story can help teachers and parents understand what education should look like, then I hope they’ll, they’ll read the story.

And I certainly hope that, you know, my kids’ future teachers will read the story because this is not a methodology that I want, you know, just for those poor kids in those poor schools. Um, you know, this is how I want my kids to learn. And therefore, it’s how I want how I believe all children should be educated.

I think it will be, you know, every student has needs that deserves to be met. And I hope that the book and the Modern Classrooms Project provides an approach that can can meet that important goal.

[00:54:50] Randi Rubenstein: Love it. Okay. Thanks for being here. I think this was a great conversation and, um, have a great week, everyone. Bye. 

Thanks for listening today, guys. I hope you picked up some tips, tools, maybe some baby steps for creating more balance and boundaries in your life. And I just wanted to let you know, if you want to continue moving the needle forward in creating this for yourself, having a happier household, I want you to go to my website and check out mastermindparenting.com. We have three beginning programs, and if you need some accountability and more support then please look for the one that would be a good fit for you.

And, as always, we’re on all the social channels under Mastermind Parenting, on Instagram it’s mastermind_parenting. And, you know, periodically I do pop up on different Instagram lives, Facebook lives where I give you teaching and coaching and I love engaging with you live to help you help your strong-willed kids so that they can feel better, because when they feel better they do better, and I love, love, love getting to know you guys. 

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