315: Similarities Between Strong-Willed Kids and Strong-Willed Horses!

[00:00:00] Randi Rubenstein: My name is Randi Rubenstein, and welcome to the Mastermind Parenting Podcast. At Mastermind Parenting, we’re on a mission to support strong-willed kids and the families that love them. 

Hi, everyone. Welcome to the show this week. I have Avery,

[00:00:17] Avery Rubenstein: Hi everyone,

[00:00:18] Randi Rubenstein: Avery favorite daughter Rubenstein, as she’s known in my contacts here with me again, and, we’re just going to have a conversation. I kind of feel like after these conversations, I should have like an unpacking our conversation episode so that I, so I know so that I can talk about all the different tools that we’re teaching and Mastermind principles that we’re incorporating

[00:00:45] Avery Rubenstein: uh huh.

[00:00:45] Randi Rubenstein: through our stories. but I haven’t done that yet. So in the meantime, we’re just going to record this episode and, uh, maybe we’ll even unpack it as we’re talking, who knows?

[00:00:56] Avery Rubenstein: Okay, sounds 

[00:00:57] Randi Rubenstein: Who knows anything can happen? Okay. So I told Avery that, um, I had a surprise story that she hasn’t heard yet that I’m going to tell her and I’ll tell all of you at the same time.

We were over at Nan and Pop’s, the other Avery’s grandparents, my in laws, um, 85 and 82 on Sunday and we’re there and Sugar, their cat that was never an indoor cat, but now she’s an indoor cat. I actually think Sugar is a he, but

[00:01:34] Avery Rubenstein: Sugar is a he.

[00:01:35] Randi Rubenstein: yeah, but they constantly say she.

[00:01:38] Avery Rubenstein: All four of those kittens were he’s and they called them all girls.

[00:01:43] Randi Rubenstein: We’re not sure why. We’re not sure why. Anyway, so Sugar has, literally looks like she has, or he looks like he has mange.

[00:01:51] Avery Rubenstein: He does have mange.

[00:01:52] Randi Rubenstein: Is it mange?

[00:01:53] Avery Rubenstein: I think he has mange, like fully.

[00:01:55] Randi Rubenstein: And so Sugar has been living in the house and, um, like ruined everything. Rugs. Furniture and Sugar has a condition that was like the vet said about a year ago that they needed to put Sugar down.

Um, but Avery’s grandpa, who is a huge animal lover, um, and acts like he’s really tough and kind of bristly has the most tender heart towards animals and they’ve not been, so they’ve just had been having their home ruined by

[00:02:33] Avery Rubenstein: I think it’s, I think it’s mostly sickly animals though because that cat was never like a beloved creature until it needed to be taken care of carefully. Mm

[00:02:42] Randi Rubenstein: Yeah, yeah, he does love nursing animals back to health. So anyway, so we’re over there and there’s Sugar drama and Sugar, Sugar’s condition, it’s like in some incurable condition, besides I think the mange, like Sugar had like patches of hair, but it was actually confusing because Sugar’s super sweet and like comes up and wants you to be, wants you to pet him. 

And so we’re over there and, gross things happened the night before and there’s like couch cushions that are, so it’s a whole, they’re like, we have to go buy a new couch. Like the couch is ruined. And so we’re all talking about how it’s time, Sugar needs to be put down. 

And so I look at dad and I say, well, let’s just take him. let’s take him for them because we know that it’s not gonna happen and I actually feel bad for Nan because she’s having everything ruined and just having to sort of put up with it.

[00:03:46] Avery Rubenstein: Yeah, Pops has the nose blindness. She has to deal.

[00:03:49] Randi Rubenstein: No, she has the nose blindness, actually. He’s just willing to live in those conditions. So, so we’re like, let’s, you know, let’s just make it happen. Let’s just take care of business for the, for the seniors. And so dad’s like, wait today? And I was like, yeah, it’s open today. Like we have, you know, Westbury’s open today, so let’s just take them.

so they’re like, great. And then all of a sudden pop starts going, well, no, I’ll take them in the morning. I’ll take them in the morning. And we’re like, no, you won’t. And he’s like, no, no, no, I’ll take him in the morning. And we’re like, no, you won’t. We’re taking it. And I’m like, we’re taking him today.

So I like bring my pack leadership in and I’m like, no, we’re going to take him today. This needs to happen. And um, and it’s cruel. Like this animal can’t, you know, it’s living with this condition and even though it’s confusing because it really does seem to love getting pet and at that moment I’m like petting it and then it gives me a little love bite.

[00:04:52] Avery Rubenstein: Mm hmm. This week.

[00:04:54] Randi Rubenstein: Yeah. Um, but it doesn’t look well. And things are not going well. So he’s like, well, we’re going to go get our, you know, we’re going to go pick up our lunch and, you know, let’s do it later. And I was like, no, just go get a carrier right now. So he goes and he gets the little crate and he brings it to us.

And then he says, as they’re walking out the door to go get their lunch, what does he say? He says, um, Don’t take my cat, but he just gave us the crate. So there’s just confusing messages right, left, and center. So I look at him and I said, okay, so later on when you go in to the part of this story that goes to blame, just blame us.

Don’t blame Nan that the cat got put down. Like just blame us because we know it’s going to go to a place of blame. So we take the cat and deal with all that. And

[00:05:53] Avery Rubenstein: So the cat’s dead. 

[00:05:54] Randi Rubenstein: Yeah, so the cats. The cat’s, the cat’s,

[00:05:58] Avery Rubenstein: Okay, good to know.

[00:05:59] Randi Rubenstein: deceased, the cat’s deceased, so Sugar’s

[00:06:01] Avery Rubenstein: I did bottle feed that cat, so I appreciate the message.

[00:06:04] Randi Rubenstein: Yeah, so, so, R. I. P. Sugar.

[00:06:08] Avery Rubenstein: Jesus.

[00:06:10] Randi Rubenstein: We’ve had many animals over the years, this is not my first rodeo. Many, many animals.

[00:06:15] Avery Rubenstein: Frickin callous.

[00:06:17] Randi Rubenstein: Um, it was time, it’s a life cycle.

[00:06:20] Avery Rubenstein: I know!

[00:06:22] Randi Rubenstein: Um,

[00:06:23] Avery Rubenstein: Appreciated a text, but continue your story.

[00:06:26] Randi Rubenstein: Okay. So, we take the cat, and then we go back to our house and we get a dad gets a text in all caps from pops that says, bring my cat back. So we’re like, we knew it was coming. We knew the blame was coming. We in all caps, all shouty, bring my cat back. The cat’s gone. 

So dad calls pops and says, well, we found out they have this amazing new service. It’s called Happy Pastures and you just pay a little bit extra for it. And he’s like, well, wait, Happy Pastures, wait, they have a different one.

And then he’s answering questions. He’s like, no, no, no. It’s a different one for dogs and cats. Um, wait a minute. I was like, no, no, no. For cats, it’s called meow heaven. He goes, that’s right. That’s right. It’s called happy pastures for dogs and meow heaven for cats. 

And they take it out to a place. It’s just this extra service. It just costs a little bit more and they drive it out and like the cat gets to live out their, or the dog it’s final days just like in Nirvana, you know It’s just like this like the most ideal place you can think of if you’d like some pictures I think they can send you some pictures He’s already thinking AI it’d be so easy to create AI pictures.

[00:08:05] Avery Rubenstein: easily.

[00:08:05] Randi Rubenstein: So anyway pops goes Oh, oh, wow Meow Heaven, Happy Pastures and then you hear Nan in the background going Wait, so Molly, because they have a dog that also is in a similar situation, wait, so we could do this for Molly? So, and dad’s like, oh, absolutely. So, Pops is like, oh, okay. All right, then. Well, thanks for letting us know and then we get off the phone.

And so then we decided, I was like, I was like, wait to take the carrier back because, you know, we got to act like we got the carrier back like the next day because they needed the carrier to take her out to Meow Heaven. So we got to like run with the story. So I was like, so wait.

[00:08:53] Avery Rubenstein: It’s become a game. 

[00:08:54] Randi Rubenstein: So I was like, just wait, so the next day he goes to return the carrier And Nan’s like, you know, asking questions about what it would be like for Molly. And they have a whole conversation. And then I don’t know, and then I think Pops comes home, and Dad’s like and they’re having this conversation, and he looks at me and, and he goes, are you really that gullible to believe this? 

But I thought the interesting part was that he pretended to believe it, right? But like, it was like, he couldn’t, he didn’t want to process the 

[00:09:32] Avery Rubenstein: He needed to gaslight himself a little.

[00:09:34] Randi Rubenstein: Yeah, well, he didn’t want to pro like when he’s like, bring my cat back. He’s like, take the cat. No, don’t take that. Don’t take my cat. Okay. Yeah, take the cat. Here’s the carrier. Don’t take my cat. 

So it’s like he didn’t he was avoiding processing the emotions. And so we offered him a magical thinking alternative to just like meet him where he was and so I thought it’s sort of like the story that you told about the little girl where you’re like, okay do you want to know a secret? And you did the whole magical powers where you like sucked the pain out of her head?

[00:10:12] Avery Rubenstein: Mm hmm.

[00:10:13] Randi Rubenstein: It’s like meeting the person where they are, allowing them to go into some magical thinking. I did. I think it was empathy. I don’t think it’s

[00:10:22] Avery Rubenstein: I think it is empathetic. I think it’s allowing him to create an image in his head of a better ending than a cat getting euthanized on a metal table.

[00:10:31] Randi Rubenstein: Yes,

[00:10:32] Avery Rubenstein: Yeah,

[00:10:33] Randi Rubenstein: and he really grabbed on to it, even though

[00:10:36] Avery Rubenstein: even though he knew it wasn’t, poor Nan.

[00:10:38] Randi Rubenstein: I know

[00:10:41] Avery Rubenstein: She didn’t give a shit about the cat. She just wanted Molly to be happy.

[00:10:46] Randi Rubenstein: Poor Nan, she’s like, Oh, that sounds great. I just thought it was so interesting because it’s like, little kids create their own reality. Like their brain naturally does that, you know, like the little kid with red popsicle all over the face. And you’re like, let me wipe your face. And they’re like, no, you, but you have popsicle all over your face. They’re like, no, I don’t. 

And in that moment, like they can feel the stickiness of the red popsicle all over their face, but in that moment, they don’t want to believe they have red popsicle all over their face. So it’s not lying as much as just like tapping into magical thinking to avoid something that might feel uncomfortable.

[00:11:28] Avery Rubenstein: Right.

[00:11:29] Randi Rubenstein: And now we have senior toddlers who like, were so happy to be offered that option to go into that, you

[00:11:40] Avery Rubenstein: That’s a great story. I thought for a second that Pops bought it, but he’s good at sniffing out a lie.

[00:11:46] Randi Rubenstein: No, but he was going with it. He was just so happy to have like a, you know, he was like, Oh. Thank you for providing option for me not to have to deal with that darkness.

[00:12:01] Avery Rubenstein: Did you and Dad discuss the lie before he got on the phone with Pops?

[00:12:05] Randi Rubenstein: No. Uh

[00:12:06] Avery Rubenstein: He just made it up? 

[00:12:07] Randi Rubenstein: He just made it up.

[00:12:09] Avery Rubenstein: That’s genius.

[00:12:10] Randi Rubenstein: He just made it up. Um, and we did

[00:12:12] Avery Rubenstein: do that to us?

[00:12:14] Randi Rubenstein: A hundred percent.

[00:12:16] Avery Rubenstein: You did when DJ died?

[00:12:18] Randi Rubenstein: No, I don’t think we did it when DJ died. I think, um, yeah, I think sometimes we just, yeah, ran with things.

[00:12:28] Avery Rubenstein: Yeah,

[00:12:29] Randi Rubenstein: Yeah. It’s, it, is it lying? Is it lying to your kids or is it, meeting them where they are?

[00:12:36] Avery Rubenstein: I don’t think it’s, also I don’t think it’s bad whatever an adult version of a lie is. Like, they’re kids, they’ll figure it out eventually when it matters.

[00:12:45] Randi Rubenstein: Well, it’s also like, what were y’all saying recently about the Tooth Fairy or?

[00:12:50] Avery Rubenstein: I believed in the Tooth Fairy for way too long. But then I conned you guys. Like, aggressively. I like, I like, knew the Tooth Fairy wasn’t real because I was too old to believe in it, and Wendy let it slip in the car and I was in the backseat and I got tears in my eyes and she freaked out. She was like, did you not know? Oh my God. I’m so sorry. But I was like, it’s fine. It’s fine.

[00:13:14] Randi Rubenstein: Wendy’s our babysitter.

[00:13:16] Avery Rubenstein: And then I would tell you, I was like, can you call the tooth fairy? There’s this Barbie toy that I’m really wanting, but I knew that you were the tooth fairy and you would do it.

[00:13:30] Randi Rubenstein: Yeah. So that would be me meeting you where you were because I’m sure I would like act like I was having a phone call.

[00:13:36] Avery Rubenstein: You go, you had to go into the secret room. I remember you had to go into the secret room to call the tooth fairy. That’s where the secret tooth fairy phone was. And you would call her and tell her, Oh, she wants her Hanukkah present early for, and then I would wake up the next morning and be next to my bed. It was perfect.

[00:13:55] Randi Rubenstein: And I’m sure I had a whole conversation.

[00:13:59] Avery Rubenstein: Riley told me that her parents, it really got away from them because her mom was like, this is one of my best friends from school. Her mom really wanted it to be like extra special. And so they would have different tooth fairies based on the season with colored glitter that would accompany the tooth fairy that they would sprinkle on the pillow.

And they all had these like elaborate names, like, like Spring, Summer, Berry and things like that. And Riley said she figured it out when they started mixing up the names.

[00:14:30] Randi Rubenstein: Yeah.

[00:14:32] Avery Rubenstein: That’s adorable.

[00:14:33] Randi Rubenstein: Yeah. It’s pretty, I think you touched on something that I thought was interesting. Um, what an adult lie is. I think adults, because we’ve, so many of us have been away from magical thinking for so long that we can just get set in like black and white adult thinking

[00:14:53] Avery Rubenstein: Mm hmm.

[00:14:54] Randi Rubenstein: rather than, you know, imagining or remembering what it was like to be a kid. 

[00:15:01] Avery Rubenstein: Right. 

[00:15:02] Randi Rubenstein: that meeting them where they are, like they’re not ready for the full blown truth of everything. Right? And so it’s not, you know, it’s not lying to your kids because I could hear a lot of people being like, but that’s lying. How do you teach your kids not to lie if you’re modeling lying? Don’t they learn from what we model? Um, but it’s just different.

[00:15:25] Avery Rubenstein: It’s a white lie. Maybe they’re just learning to spare people’s feelings.

[00:15:29] Randi Rubenstein: Yeah.

[00:15:30] Avery Rubenstein: It’s not a bad lesson.

[00:15:33] Randi Rubenstein: Yeah. I don’t think it’s quite as clear. You know, because lying is always a big topic. People really freak out when their kids lie, and a lot of times it’s developmental. And then when kids continue to lie like repeatedly and double down on the lie, like, I saw you do it. How are you telling me something different? Like kids lie when it doesn’t feel safe to tell the truth.

[00:16:00] Avery Rubenstein: Right. 

[00:16:01] Randi Rubenstein: You know, if they’ve experienced being shamed for lying as a three year old about the red popsicle on their face or whatever it was or with Cory the red C that he spray painted on the inside of our garage door. He was learning how to spell his name.

[00:16:18] Avery Rubenstein: When we saw the giant C, and we were like, Corey, did you do that? He was like, nope. That was so funny.

[00:16:27] Randi Rubenstein: I did not. I did not. And then we had that red C for like 10 years. I never, we never got rid of it because I thought it so hilarious.

[00:16:36] Avery Rubenstein: Trademark of our house.

[00:16:38] Randi Rubenstein: Everybody just needs to chill a little bit, because when you freak out when your kids lie when they’re little, because they’re just creating their own reality, and they’re just in magical thinking, and this is what they want to believe in this moment, and it’s not that big of a deal, and you just sort of wait, and continue creating an environment where you’re not, you know, making it a big deal. 

And eventually they do feel safe to tell the truth, right? And then when they tell the truth, it’s like, well, thank you so much for telling me that must’ve, that that was really brave. And then you reinforce the truth telling. Well then kids learn that, oh, in this family, we don’t have to lie.

[00:17:21] Avery Rubenstein: Mhm. Yeah. I don’t, I don’t know if you want this publicized, but I do remember when you taught me what a light, what a white lie was when there was a girl at school. I don’t know if you remember who it is. I’m not going to say her name. And I’d had a horrible sleep over at their house and just hated going over there. She kept asking me to hang out. And I was like, I don’t know what

[00:17:47] Randi Rubenstein: How are you? How old are you in this?

[00:17:49] Avery Rubenstein: I was in elementary school, maybe like third or fourth grade and I was like, I really don’t want to go over there. But I don’t know what to say and you were like, I’m gonna teach you what a white lie is. You’re like you’re not being mean because you’re lying to her you’re actually protecting her feelings, because you don’t want her to know that you just hate going to her house.

And I remember thinking, okay, it’s only okay to lie, like it was like a really good way to teach me what the consequences of lying and the benefits. Cause I remember distinctly, and I still follow this lesson of like, it’s only okay to lie if you’re protecting someone’s feelings.

[00:18:29] Randi Rubenstein: Yeah. That’s what we did with Nan and Pops.

[00:18:32] Avery Rubenstein: Right. Which I guess can be twisted in a little kid brain. Cause they’re like. I’m going to lie about brushing my teeth because my mom will get upset and that’s how protecting her feelings.

[00:18:42] Randi Rubenstein: Yeah. Yeah. I could see that, but that never happened.

[00:18:46] Avery Rubenstein: Yeah, that never happened. 

[00:18:47] Randi Rubenstein: It didn’t happen. Well, it did? You used to lie about brushing your teeth? 

[00:18:52] Avery Rubenstein: Sometimes I would get tired at night.

[00:18:55] Randi Rubenstein: You never had any cavities.

[00:18:57] Avery Rubenstein: Yeah, I’m fine. Not prone to them. I brush my teeth.

[00:19:01] Randi Rubenstein: Yeah. Thank goodness. Um, glad, glad that didn’t, that didn’t stop you from 

[00:19:07] Avery Rubenstein: Did not stick.

[00:19:09] Randi Rubenstein: um, decent hygiene. Yeah, because what are you going to say? Like I wasn’t comfortable at your house. Your house had funky smells. Your your parents kind of freaked me out.

[00:19:18] Avery Rubenstein: Don’t want come over your house sucks. 

[00:19:20] Randi Rubenstein: Yeah. 

[00:19:21] Avery Rubenstein: That’s mean.

[00:19:23] Randi Rubenstein: That feels mean. That feels hurtful.

[00:19:25] Avery Rubenstein: Yeah.

[00:19:25] Randi Rubenstein: And, you know, choosing not to lie, you would either, you would be choosing to hurt her feelings or you would be choosing to martyr yourself and go somewhere that you really didn’t want to be.

[00:19:41] Avery Rubenstein: Right, which probably is what I would have done. Yeah. I think I was feeling sick about it. I actually remember how that felt because I remember feeling that way a couple different times with a couple different people in middle school where I would self sacrifice and just go and I was miserable every time. Like that one girl that kept calling and really wanted me to hang out with her and finally I went and it sucked.

[00:20:06] Randi Rubenstein: Mm hmm. It was like everything in your body

[00:20:08] Avery Rubenstein: Yeah, I just knew.

[00:20:10] Randi Rubenstein: You just know, 

[00:20:11] Avery Rubenstein: Mhm. 

[00:20:13] Randi Rubenstein: Okay. So the other thing I was wanting to talk about, cause I was telling someone recently, um, they’re asking like, well, what’s Avery up to? And um, and I was telling them and I was like, yeah, daily we after she’s been at the ranch, I hear stories of, you

[00:20:29] Avery Rubenstein: Whimsical stories.

[00:20:31] Randi Rubenstein: Stories of the horses, you and, and so I, I wanted to talk about Ben, the strong willed horse.

[00:20:38] Avery Rubenstein: That frickin horse. He’s really sweet.

[00:20:42] Randi Rubenstein: Okay. First of all, say what you’ve, what you’re doing, what the ranch 

[00:20:46] Avery Rubenstein: My line of work Is we use equine therapy. So like horse therapy for people with varying mental disabilities. So like autism. And, um, one woman has cerebral palsy. Like there’s like physical, mental, lots of different types of disabilities. And it’s really cool. Like there’s one girl who was completely nonverbal and she made her first noises with us and like, it helps with posture, whatever. 

So the main horse that we use, his name is Ben, he’s giant Canadian fluffy horse, and he’s very strong willed. Um, and he gets overstimulated, I guess is the phrase that I would use. And he’ll bite, like he bites, not the people that we’re doing lessons with. He never bites the clients. But he’ll bite whoever he’s feeling most comfortable around, which is normally me.

[00:21:41] Randi Rubenstein: So he’s perfect with the clients.

[00:21:45] Avery Rubenstein: Perfect with them. I mean, so snuzzling them, like, angel. Angel, angel. And as soon as it’s me, like, I’ll even let the clients, I mean, I’ll sit there and I’ll hold the foot for them, but I’ll let them clean his feet. Like, he’s a gentle giant with them. And then as soon as I pick up that hoof pick, he’s biting my butt. Like, like I’ll go home and go to get in the shower and look at myself and I’ll have red marks like all over me. And sometimes I’m just not quick enough to, to evade. 

But um, I notice it’s only when I’m feeling overwhelmed. So like, if I’m in a rush to get him ready for whoever’s coming, he’ll bite me. Or like, if it’s really windy outside and I know he’s super sensitive to wind. And he can feel that I’m really holding him to make sure he doesn’t budge with an autistic person on his back. He will sit there and go, you know, like trying to bite me. 

But if I approach him completely calm, like a lot of times if I’m just in there cleaning his stall or if I’m lunging him, getting him warmed up. He’ll come up to me, he’ll lick me, he’ll nuzzle me. 

[00:23:00] Randi Rubenstein: Is it big deal when a horse licks you?

[00:23:02] Avery Rubenstein: Not a huge deal, but like, you know, it takes trust in both to have those giant teeth next to you and let them just lick you. Um, and it’s kind of scary, you know, like horse mouths are kind of scary. 

Um, but the other day, like, I really noticed when he’s calm versus when I’m not calm, is when I went in and I got there like 30 minutes earlier than everyone, I already told you this story, and he was laying down, and normally when a horse is laying down, if you approach them, they’ll pop right up. Well, the way I initially approached him was not, I was not in a rush, like, I knew I was early, I knew we had time. So I walked over to him and he just kind of looked up at me lazily and didn’t move. 

So I was like, all right, Ben, like time to get up. Come on. Would not budge. I’m, I tried everything. Laid on top of him completely full body weight, pulled on his tail, pulled on his mane, eventually just sat down next to his head. He laid his head in my lap. Like, he was fully relaxed, to the point where I thought he was injured. And he didn’t get up until I went to go grab another horse and he was jealous, but, I mean, it’s the most ridiculous animal you’ve ever met in your entire life, like,

[00:24:22] Randi Rubenstein: Why was he just laying down and refusing to budge?

[00:24:25] Avery Rubenstein: Cause the sun felt nice. Just felt good in the sun. 

[00:24:29] Randi Rubenstein: He was gonna do what he wanted to do. 

[00:24:31] Avery Rubenstein: It had been, you know what, they took a week and a half off for Christmas, and he hadn’t worked in a week and a half, and so he was like, I’m used to this life now, he didn’t want to do work,

[00:24:42] Randi Rubenstein: I’m just chilling.

mm hmm, 

And, like, explain about horses and like, like why horses are good with, with, you know, why they’re such an amazing, tool to use with people with disabilities and how he can sense you’re overwhelmed, like talk a little bit about that.

[00:25:05] Avery Rubenstein: Well, they’re prey species, right? They’re herd animals, and so that means he is super attuned, they are super attuned, to everything that’s going on around them. Any threat, any feeling, any sense of harm, any sense of calm, it’s really, they’re really easy to influence, and so they’ll react accordingly.

So with people on the spectrum who normally, maybe they don’t have malicious intent, but sometimes they can bring a chaotic energy, that’s different from someone who’s, you know, doesn’t have a mental disability. And a horse can kind of sense that there isn’t malicious intent. Like, he doesn’t freak out even when Buddy’s on his back screaming, or cursing, or saying, you know, talking about how he got stabbed by the police 37 times. He likes to say that a lot. Um,

[00:26:01] Randi Rubenstein: This is one of the clients with

[00:26:02] Avery Rubenstein: This is one of the clients. He likes to always tell us that he got attacked by the police and got stabbed a certain amount of times. And it’s always like a really random number. Um, but he’s sitting up there screaming on Ben, like kind of pulling on him and Ben doesn’t care. Because he recognizes that Buddy’s not there to hurt him, Buddy just doesn’t act the same as all the other people that work there, you know? 

And so, what I’ve noticed with these animals is it’s like, the people that are on their back, even if they come in in a state of overwhelm, they’ll end up actually reflecting what the animal’s giving them. Which is why I have to stay calm, because Ben won’t reflect me, and therefore Buddy won’t reflect Ben. But, like, when Ben is calm, when Ben’s doing his work well, when he’s being a really good horse slowly throughout the lesson, the client will relax. It’s really neat.

[00:26:53] Randi Rubenstein: It’s almost like it’s like the horses mirror the neurotypical people’s energy, but the people with disabilities mirror what and absorb what the horse is giving out?

[00:27:11] Avery Rubenstein: Exactly. Yeah. That’s, I mean, from what I’ve noticed,

[00:27:16] Randi Rubenstein: That’s so

[00:27:16] Avery Rubenstein: I think it’s usually indicative of whoever’s closest to the horse because Ben and I now, like I’m probably his main caretaker. I’m with him all the time. I’m feeding him. I’m cleaning him. I’m lunging him. And so I’ve noticed whatever state I come into work with. Is whatever state he’s in.

[00:27:40] Randi Rubenstein: That’s so interesting

[00:27:41] Avery Rubenstein: It’s so interesting.

[00:27:43] Randi Rubenstein: Like, that’s such a metaphor for, you know, it’s like if you think about, neurodivergent people, right? People that are on the spectrum and, and other types of neurodivergent people. Like, I think a lot of these strong willed kids, people realize, oh, they have some neurodivergence going on, right? They’re highly sensitive little people. And they feel everything.

[00:28:10] Avery Rubenstein: Mm hmm.

[00:28:11] Randi Rubenstein: I was just having this conversation with a mom who’s been on my Mastermind for a really long time the other day and she’s really become this amazing pack leader. And she was sharing a story the other day about how like her husband was, one of her kids did something that, was, you know, the, the kid wasn’t doing well and before she could kind of step in the husband, um, started taking over and was doing a very unmastermind like, and she shut that shit down. 

And this is a really intense husband. Like for many years, people probably could have described her as like seeming like sort of like the little woman. And he was like the bull in a china shop, you know, guy. Um, and now she’s just like this bad ass and she shut it down without emasculating him. Like she brought that divine feminine energy. Like she was just a su, she was just brought pack leadership. She was just like, no, we’re not doing that.

[00:29:22] Avery Rubenstein: Mm 

[00:29:22] Randi Rubenstein: And she like separated them and then she went separately and she like reassured the kid like. That wasn’t cool. Take some space, take some time. We’re going to talk about this in a little bit. but like reassured the kid basically, like you’re not in trouble. Like I got you. 

Then she went separately to the husband and she empathized with the husband and was like, yeah, no, I, I get where your intention is to do, you know is to shut down bad behavior, but we’re just not doing it that way anymore It doesn’t work. And then she even like thought on her feet and she’s like think about it think about how strong will you know she was like how strong you are. Think about when, somebody talks to you in that way like are you taking any of that in? She’s like no so we’re not doing it that way we’re better than that. We’ve moved beyond that. And frankly, it doesn’t work. All it does is push your kid away. 

And the husband heard her and then I don’t know what, she went off and did something else. And before she knew it, I think they were like on a ski vacation. The husband and that kid were one on one skiing and then they came back and they had had a conversation and the husband had apologized and the kids saw, like confided in him.

[00:30:42] Avery Rubenstein: She acted as the horse. 

[00:30:44] Randi Rubenstein: Yeah. 

[00:30:44] Avery Rubenstein: Yeah, if there’s no third party involved, the neurodivergent will mirror the energy of the neurotypical. The horse just acts as a bridge to filter and calm.

[00:30:55] Randi Rubenstein: Mmm,

[00:30:58] Avery Rubenstein: Yeah.

[00:30:58] Randi Rubenstein: So interesting. Yeah. And so she really, yeah, so she really took over and I’m like, I feel like these strong willed little humans, um, highly sensitive, like they feel everything. And so what we were talking about was she was like, you know, it’s almost like you should tell people coming in, I’m going to help you to become a better pack leader. She goes, because I wouldn’t have gotten here if, and she’s kind of saying, you know, she did some one on one work with me like a year ago. 

Like, if we hadn’t done that intense work where I really had to look at the patterns, really from my own childhood and see where they were still playing out and she goes I wouldn’t be in this level of pack leadership So I feel like maybe you need to tell people that. 

And I said people aren’t ready to hear that. Like everybody comes because they’re like no no I just have a strong willed kid. Like it’s all my kid. It has nothing to do with me. And and I think these kids, they’re so intuitive, they feel everything and they are mirroring like the vibe of the household, the overwhelming, the overwhelmed feelings their of the pack leader.

[00:32:15] Avery Rubenstein: Things that you’re not attuned to as a neurotypical person, like, people with different, like, on the spectrum, and they can pick up on pain that you can’t recognize. You know, it’s so interesting. Like there’s just a different level of sense. It’s a superpower. They can sense things that we can’t

[00:32:36] Randi Rubenstein: Have you seen any of that in working with these clients? Like

[00:32:39] Avery Rubenstein: Even just the way that they can calm the horse and just the way that, cause I haven’t, like, I feel like I am more keyed into the client relationship with the animals because that’s what is so fascinating to me. If Ben is in a bitey mood, and he just won’t stop, there’s nothing I can do to get him to stop, I’m sitting there, you know, I’m the lead walker, so my hand’s next to his mouth the whole time, he just won’t stop.

And I’ll try everything, I’ll be like, it’s okay, you’re a good boy, like, I try and take deep breaths to calm myself, and I can’t get there. And then a client will come in, and they’ll be like, oh, can I pet him? I’m like, careful, he’s bitey, and they’ll pet him and he relaxes. 

And it’s almost like they’re not overthinking it. They’re not overthinking the sense of calm that they need to achieve, which ends up stressing me out more. Cause I’m trying to force it. And it’s like, I don’t know. There’s a different energy that’s given off.

[00:33:41] Randi Rubenstein: It’s almost like, like the no filter. How like some kids like aren’t good at reading the room, you know, like you smell bad, you know, like they, like there’s,

[00:33:52] Avery Rubenstein: Yeah. I mean, for me, I, what I’ve noticed is it’s like a lack of proving energy. Like for me, I’m like, I’m going to prove that I’m calm. I’m going to prove that I’m this animal whisperer and I’m going to make this horse do what I say and be perfect because I’m going to be serene. And they don’t have that, like, it’s like, the neurodivergent people that come to us, like, it’s kind of like, Well, I’m just gonna go and pet the horse, and we’ll see what happens, you know? There isn’t this overthinking involved.

[00:34:21] Randi Rubenstein: That’s interesting. Not because they’re simple minded. It’s like, it’s almost like that lack of a filter. We see it in our society, person to person as a lagging skill, but animals. 

[00:34:37] Avery Rubenstein: It’s more honest. 

[00:34:37] Randi Rubenstein: Yeah. It’s more honest and like animals, they’re like, like the social nuances don’t exist here. We just get to, we just get to connect being to being.

[00:34:48] Avery Rubenstein: Right. What, what some people in society see as simplistic living is actually just a more honest way of being. Like, 

[00:34:55] Randi Rubenstein: But what I’ll say is, is look, we live in a society with other people. So if we have a kid that has some lagging social skills, it doesn’t mean we’re not going to help them to develop, better social skills. We we are, but they’re not going to trust you, and feel safe to learn anything if they don’t feel like we’re part of, we’re, we’re in their pack. We’re on their team. 

If they don’t trust, if you don’t have that trust, just like the horse has to have trust, right? Like he needs to trust that you don’t have any ill intentions and you’re not trying, you’re not going to download your overwhelm onto him. So when feels safe and he’s trusting you, then he’s relaxing and he’s not trying to bite you and he doesn’t try to bite the neurodivergent people because he trusts them. Something about them feels honest and safe.

[00:35:53] Avery Rubenstein: Right, and that’s what’s cool about the animal therapy too, is like, because a lot of the people that will come, they’re not kids, you know? Like, these are adults. Like, one of our clients today is his 39th birthday. And like, I’ve noticed a big thing with therapy is communication skills. Because it’s not just like giving the horse direction, but you know, there’s a lot of interaction during the lessons and games that we play and conversations to be had. 

And having that third party filter there in the form of a horse just kind of allows it to flow a little easier and allows the neurodivergent person to feel more relaxed in that conversation. So they don’t feel attacked with all this new information and don’t feel attacked with like this unfamiliar style of communication. It’s more like, it just feels like a more honest setting.

[00:36:39] Randi Rubenstein: You mean because if it was just person to person, it would just be like verbal input coming at them, coming at them and the horse brings them back into their body?

[00:36:50] Avery Rubenstein: A little bit. Yeah. Cause it’s like, it’s also like, like I just imagine as if I were neurodivergent, which I am, but I’m not autistic. If someone were coming at me in a communication style that feels unclear to me, unfamiliar, unsafe, I would have a guard up. know, I wouldn’t, I wouldn’t want to talk to them. I’d probably yell at them. I’d probably, you know, shut down. 

Something about having the horse there. Yes, it serves a distraction, but also like they’re focusing on their body. They’re moving in different directions. They’re communicating with the horse, stroking the horse, having something to ground them. You know, it’s almost like whatever we’re giving to them and the form of communication isn’t overwhelming in that setting.

[00:37:36] Randi Rubenstein: Hmm.

[00:37:37] Avery Rubenstein: It’s really neat.

[00:37:38] Randi Rubenstein: It is really neat. Talk about that thing that I sent you, like the breaking of a horse. 

[00:37:45] Avery Rubenstein: Like the trust that needs to be built for it?

[00:37:47] Randi Rubenstein: Yeah, like thing that we just learned about how, you know, the traditional style of breaking a horse takes six weeks and basically involves breaking down their spirit. Um, we could compare it to old school discipline styles. Like people are like, kids need to be disciplined. 

And what they really mean is, because discipline means teach. So obviously kids need to be taught things. That’s part of the role of a parent and teacher. 

[00:38:15] Avery Rubenstein: Hmm. 

[00:38:16] Randi Rubenstein: um, learning how to be alive, but like they’re really saying, no, kids need to be punished. They can only learn through pain.

[00:38:24] Avery Rubenstein: Right. Which I actually, it’s, it’s funny that you brought it up because I put that video that you sent me into practice. Basically the video was, she was talking about,

[00:38:33] Randi Rubenstein: So that’s a way, but that, that’s that old school way of breaking down a horse is like breaking their spirit. 

[00:38:39] Avery Rubenstein: Yeah, like beating them into submission, basically. The way that this video talked about it was like, There was this wild mustang, which is known to be a very temperamental breed of horse. And she would approach it very slowly until the horse shied away. And the reward for the horse shying away was she backed up. She did not go any closer. And so over many hours, she was eventually able to get close enough to pet him. And she was the first person to lay a hand on this wild horse. 

And I did it, actually. There was, there’s these two horses, they’re not ours, they belong to someone else, they’re the only other two horses kept at the farm. And one of them, my dream horse, she looks just like Spirit, from the movie Spirit. And then the boy that’s with her looks just like Spirit’s girlfriend, from the movie. Like, they’re identical, it’s really freaky. Like, she plucked them from the movie.

 And the spirit horse, she’s so sweet. She’ll come right up to you, she nuzzles me, whatever. The painted horse, the boy, will not get close. He has the most beautiful blue eyes, but will not let you touch him. And over the last few weeks, I’ve been doing, I think I started doing it subconsciously before you sent me that video, and then I started doing it more consciously once you sent it to me.

I’d get close enough to him, and he’d kind of back up, and I’d leave. I was like, you don’t want me to touch you, that’s fine. And for the first time, actually, when Emily, my boyfriend’s sister, came with me out there to meet the horses, he let me touch him. It was the first time in weeks. 

And I think it was partially because I’d given him the space to, like, feel comfortable on his own. I think it was also because I wasn’t putting too much emphasis on it, because I was with my friend, you know. I was showing her, I was making sure that she, she’s kind of scared of horses, making sure that she wasn’t afraid. I wasn’t focused on him. And then he came up to me, which I thought was really interesting. 

[00:40:43] Randi Rubenstein: hmm.

[00:40:44] Avery Rubenstein: It was like once there wasn’t pressure, he felt comfortable.

[00:40:48] Randi Rubenstein: Once there wasn’t pressure, like you didn’t force anything, you forcing the relationship. You weren’t forcing, you know, it’s like when parents force, try to force kids to see the error of their ways. They try to force them to have a productive conversation rather meeting them where they are and building that trust.

Right? Like step one of the productive conversation is see the other person’s perspective. Well, sometimes you just hang out and seeing their perspective for a really long time, you just have to like, like go in and just sort of be with them in a nonverbal way and just like hold space. 

It was kind of like the story you told in that, you know, from when we were in Hawaii and you were upset and you were like, I actually would have, like, if you would have just come out and just like held space and just like been next to me. Like I didn’t need you to ever really say anything when I was upset. I just want, you know, it’s just like sending someone the message of you don’t have to be all alone in, in this.

So seeing someone’s perspective might, it might involve just like going back to them as the first part of the repair and just like being with them. And eventually your kid, you might say like, I know I really upset you or something about that felt scary or something about that made you really mad. 

That’s seeing their perspective. Even if you, if you get it wrong, the kid might say like, no, Oh, well, What was it then? I’d love to you know, I’d love to know and I understand if you, if it’s too soon, and you don’t feel comfy yet. I just wanted to kind of be next to you,

[00:42:36] Avery Rubenstein: Right. And there’s no time frame.

[00:42:37] Randi Rubenstein: Right, so there’s so you’re building that trust. That’s the same thing as like like seeing that the horse backs away from you and not forcing it, right, not trying to break them, but you’re just like cool. Okay, I’ll come visit again.

[00:42:52] Avery Rubenstein: Right. And just kind of, you know what, I would back away and I would coo at him and tell him, you know, how pretty he is, but I would not get any closer. And I noticed, I was just thinking about this, he didn’t let me touch him until my motivation changed. So it went from, I really want to pet this horse, I want to put my hands on him, to, I don’t want my friend to feel scared.

[00:43:14] Randi Rubenstein: Hmm

[00:43:15] Avery Rubenstein: And once, like, I’m telling you, it was right when I felt that way, because Emily, she, she got scared by the, I was like, you can put your hand under her mouth, she’ll lick you. Or she’ll, you know, do the gummy thing. And she was like, I can’t, I can’t. And so I brought her hand over to Spirit, the nice horse, and I just kind of put her hand under. And I let Spirit lick her hand because I knew Spirit wasn’t going to bite her. And then he came over. Like, my focus was not on him. I was not putting any pressure on him.

[00:43:45] Randi Rubenstein: That’s so interesting, you know, and I think it’s the same way with a kid so like if you went and just wanted to be with a kid and, and they weren’t ready to talk, you might say like, I just wanted to be with you and if you’re not ready to talk, I understand. They might say, yeah, get out. 

[00:44:01] Avery Rubenstein: Great, well, sometimes, like, if someone’s sitting there, even if they’re silent, even if they’re like, take your time, you still feel pressure to engage them.

[00:44:10] Randi Rubenstein: Right. And if you have a kid that is used to you sort of forcing your agenda and making them talk about things, which ultimately results in trying to teach them lessons, um, you know, get trying to get them to own their mistakes. There’s been shame, chances are there’s been some, you know, they’ve been, they’ve felt shame and they didn’t know how to process it and they were just alone in their shame. So they might feel defensive and not trusting and push you out. No, get out.

[00:44:45] Avery Rubenstein: Right.

[00:44:46] Randi Rubenstein: Right. And then the parent does what you did with the horse, like, like, okay. And then you. You respect the horse, what the horse wants, rather than trying to force your way and you retreat. But then you keep coming back and, and visiting like the next day or the next time.

And over time, without that pressure, and then also once you released your own agenda and you just were there, right? Like the horse trusted you enough because you didn’t force yourself that it, it came over to you on its own.

[00:45:21] Avery Rubenstein: Right. Something I also put into practice because I know myself and sometimes if I’m not feeling good or something happened and someone enters my space, I’ll feel obligated to talk about it even when I’m not ready. Is I had a friend in college, I’m not gonna say her name, but I lived with her and she would go through these up and down depressive episodes. 

And whenever I noticed that she was in a really big slump I knew she didn’t want to talk. She wasn’t really a talker. I would take my book into her room I would sit in her room and I would read on her bed with her. Because then it wasn’t like I was sitting there waiting in silence for her to talk to me. I had my own activity. She didn’t feel pressure, but she didn’t feel alone.

[00:46:05] Randi Rubenstein: And did you find that, like, those were the times that she would start to open up?

[00:46:10] Avery Rubenstein: She would, I would notice, I would look up every once in a while and I’d see tears. She’d start crying. And over time, it would develop to the point where she became used enough to my company that, which she’s one of my best friends, so of course she was like comfortable around me, but used to my company in that setting. Where I’d be like, I’m bored of reading, do you want to go on a walk to the beach? And then she would talk to me on the walk.

[00:46:34] Randi Rubenstein: Mm.

[00:46:35] Avery Rubenstein: And it became kind of like a habit over time. 

[00:46:38] Randi Rubenstein: I wonder if you just sitting on her bed and just reading without any pressure, just like, basically that sends her the message of, I just want to be in here next to you, and we can be in comfortable silence 

[00:46:52] Avery Rubenstein: Right. 

[00:46:53] Randi Rubenstein: I wonder if that’s what would bring tears to her eyes, that 

[00:46:56] Avery Rubenstein: That is what would bring tears. I mean, she’s told me since. And when she would have a high, she’d be like, I loved not being alone. Because that was a big thing I learned in my evolutionary psychology class is depression is a cry for help. Even if you lock yourself away, even if you don’t, if you’re like, get out, you don’t want anyone around you.

The way that like our evolution, we used to live in such tight knit communities that as someone, as soon as someone’s withdrawn, as soon as they’re not doing their part, as soon as they’re not sharing with the group. Everyone knows that something is wrong. If you don’t see a person, something is wrong. 

And so it was kind of a clue for our ancestors. Hey, go help that person. They’re alone. So I kind of took those teachings and I was like, she’s locking herself away. That’s the worst thing for her. She’s asking me to come in there without even knowing it.

[00:47:54] Randi Rubenstein: That’s so good. That’s so good. All right. I think, uh, this conversation feels complete.

 Okay. Bye everyone. See you next time. Bye.

Thanks for listening today, guys. I hope you picked up some tips, tools, maybe some baby steps for creating more balance and boundaries in your life. And I just wanted to let you know, if you want to continue moving the needle forward in creating this for yourself, having a happier household, I want you to go to my website and check out mastermindparenting.com. We have three beginning programs, and if you need some accountability and more support then please look for the one that would be a good fit for you.

And, as always, we’re on all the social channels under Mastermind Parenting, on Instagram it’s mastermind_parenting. And, you know, periodically I do pop up on different Instagram lives, Facebook lives where I give you teaching and coaching and I love engaging with you live to help you help your strong-willed kids so that they can feel better, because when they feel better they do better, and I love, love, love getting to know you guys. 

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