316: The Invisible Trauma of Why You Might be a Lone Wolf with Ruth Cohn

[00:00:00] Randi Rubenstein: My name is Randi Rubenstein, and welcome to the Mastermind Parenting Podcast. At Mastermind Parenting, we’re on a mission to support strong-willed kids and the families that love them. 

[00:00:10] Ruth Cohn: This is how the neglect mind works. Something’s going wrong. Immediately I feel like, Oh my God, I did it. It’s my fault. I’m so sorry. I’m so sorry. I’m so sorry. I’m so inept. And it’s all, you know, this sort of self flagellation. Because in the case of neglect, there is no other. So everyone, everything that goes wrong, it’s because I did it. 

And because there’s no repair, ever, when you’ve got a neglect parent, then the child is somehow left to figure out, well, what made things go wrong? What’s wrong with me? I’m bad. And so, it turns into a shame cycle. Whenever something goes wrong, the default is it’s my fault. I’m bad. 

[00:01:15] Randi Rubenstein: So interesting that you said that because, and I kind of want to pick apart what just happened before we started recording and like hear your clinical, you know, explanation for, for what just happened. Um, which. You know, no one get too nervous out there. It was just some technical difficulties, um, for both of us. 

Uh, but what you just said, it’s interesting. It’s like, I don’t think, even though I do very much identify with this invisible trauma that you’ve now made visible for me, the trauma of neglect, or as you say, the trauma of nothing, the trauma of nothingness. It’s not, and tell me if I’m, if you would add to this. 

[00:02:02] Ruth Cohn: Right on it. 

[00:02:03] Randi Rubenstein: it’s not necessarily about what happened to you. It’s also, it’s like what didn’t happen for you. And so I very much identify and recently, um, it was actually Thanksgiving. My kids were flying home back to college and, um, my son who’s a freshman in college, my youngest son. Um, he was kind of quiet on, he had had a really fun break and really enjoyed being home and fun with his friends and, um, and he kind of seemed quiet. 

And when he got out of the car, him and his sister were going together and he kind of came back and he said, I might, I might call you in a little bit. And I could tell he was kind of choked up. He was trying to hold back tears. And he goes, I might call you in a little bit. 

And my immediate response in my body is, Oh my God, like I’m in trouble. I did something wrong. He’s mad at me. So I, so I text him and I said, did I do something, um, did I do something to upset you? You know, please let me know. And he tested, he texted me back, Oh no, not at all. I’m just feeling a little sad and wanted to talk with you about it. 

[00:03:22] Ruth Cohn: Oh, 

[00:03:23] Randi Rubenstein: Well, like my in immediate response was, Oh, I, well, you know what, I’ve, I thought I’d pulled this off and been this mom that’s connected to her kids, but clearly I’ve now blown it. I, he’s, you know, it’s almost like, like, I’m like, I still have that hyper vigilance part. Like, Oh God, he’s mad at me. Oh God. I did something. What, what is it? You know, I’m, I really blew it this time. 

And he’s like, no, like he was basically like, you’re my person. If I’m feeling sad, I don’t have to sit all by myself with it. Like I just want to talk to my mom, you know, it’s not about you. I’m not mad at you. But it’s the opposite. 

[00:04:03] Ruth Cohn: Yeah, and I have to say, hearing your story about you and your son, I’m so moved. I’m so moved. Because you’re able to give him something different, that you didn’t get, that you’re so present, that you’re so ready to take responsibility, and what you’re describing now of feeling like, oh, I did something wrong, is exactly what I just did, about what was going on here between us. 

And what is what is so lovely in your story is your son won’t grow up doing that because you’re there and you’re paying attention and you’re wanting to know how he feels and if you did do something to hurt him you want to know so that you can repair it And we didn’t get that.

[00:05:09] Randi Rubenstein: No, I’m still waiting for I’m still waiting for an apology. Um, for my mom and she’s been dead for three years. So, like, I know just the other day I was, I was doing my little journaling practice and And I really released any expectation like that apology was never or ownership was, it was just never going to happen that that was just not a part of what I, it was unrealistic to have that expectation.

I knew it was never going to happen. And all of a sudden the other day, I admitted to myself, I want a fucking apology. I just want some kind of ownership, just something. And, um, and I had like released it because also what you’ve taught me now, I’m just, for all of you, you’ll hear all, I’ll, I’m going to, you know, I’ll, I’ll give you a whole introduction to Ruth later, but I am obsessed with her because she has, brought me into this blind spot that I didn’t, I just didn’t even know at this age, you know, and, and with this work that I I’m doing, like, I didn’t know that this was the trauma that I suffered.

And, um, it explains so much about me. Um, until I started learning from you very recently, reading your books, take reading your book, taking your course, um, um, reading your blogs, right? Like, Um, not until you educated me on this and, you know, a lot of what you have taught me is it, it most likely this trauma happened before I had, you know, conscious memory or, you know, the verbal skills.

The reason why I know it’s my trauma is because I feel the resonance in my body. Every time you describe. You’re, you know, your clients that, you know, suffer this neglect trauma. Every time you like, it’s like, I’ll hear you describe another client story and I feel the resonance in my body.

[00:07:20] Ruth Cohn: That really moves me, Randi, and it’s so interesting that you’re talking right now about this, um, wishing for an apology from your mother, because I, I’m going to, I have another book in me that’s about apology and forgiveness. 

And sidebar, there’s a wonderful book that is worth reading the hard copy and it’s worth listening to the audio. And it’s written by Eve Ensler, who now called The Apology. So she writes the apology that she wished she had received. And it’s so powerful. 

And why the reason I’m going into this more is because I recently had an experience that was so profound because my mother died in 2000. So it’s been 25 years. And. I had, I, I, she died and I had this unfinished anger and hurt and just all these un, unresolved feelings about her. And I was able to make my peace about my father before he died. So I had good years with him before he died. Like yourself. My mother died and I was sort of left holding this bag of, of stuff. 

Anyway, recently I had this experience. I broke my arm and so much stuff started coming up when I broke my arm. But for whatever reason, I started having memories about my grandmother. And my grandmother was this upper middle class, intellectual, cold, formal German, German lady. And she was completely unequipped to be an empathic, resonant, present mother. And before the Holocaust, when my mother was growing up, I’m pretty sure my grandmother was completely like ill equipped to be a mother to my mom. So my mother didn’t get any resonance, didn’t get any mirroring. All this stuff that you and I are talking about, like that your son is getting, my mother didn’t get from her mother either. 

And I remembered my own experience with my where she was so childlike, she was so wooden, she was so unphysically affectionate. She was so unemotional that it was like I was the mother. And I was this little girl and I would hug her and I would hold her hand and I would spend time with her and I would pay attention to her. It was kind of like I was the mom, she was the kid and I never thought about it before this way. 

And so, As I was having these sort of memories come up, one thing I, my, my, my grandmother, she went through the Holocaust, my, my mother was eight years old, they put her on a train, got her out of Germany, by herself, she was sitting by herself on this train, not knowing if she was ever going to see anyone again, she, um, was raised by this cold, absent, you know, neglectful mother. And so I started having all these images. 

And then I remembered, and this is something that my father was always so bitter and angry about, that, um, my grandmother never wanted my mother to marry him, because my father never finished high school. You know, Hitler came, he went through all kinds of stuff. So, he never finished high school. He came from a poor family. They were, you know, not the same class as my mother’s family. So, my grandmother never wanted my mother to marry my father. And my father never let us forget that. 

So, here I was. I had this memory. And I don’t know if it was a memory or if it was just something that came up inside of me. But I had no, I realized I had no memory of my grandmother’s voice. I spent a lot of time with my grandmother. I didn’t remember her voice. I didn’t remember anything she ever said. That’s weird. 

[00:12:18] Randi Rubenstein: Mm-hmm 

[00:12:18] Ruth Cohn: . So here I am having this stuff come up and my grandmother is yelling at my mother. She’s yelling, don’t marry that man. Don’t do it, Eva. Don’t marry that man. And I realized as I was sort of feeling all this stuff that my grandmother was presenting my mother with another dilemma without solution. 

The dilemma without solution is the source of comfort and the source of terror is the same person. And here was my mother sort of faced with this choice where either I please you and we stay connected, or I defy you and do what I want to do and lose you. And there she was in that again. And she chose my dad, and my dad turned out to be quite the perpetrator, so my grandmother must have felt something. 

But here’s the point that I’m getting at here, and this is for all the parent, um, people that are watching today, and that is, we may never get that apology. I never got it. However, the only way, and I got this from this experience, the only way I can get my peace with my mother and to really feel the forgiveness, inside myself is if I, I understand how could this have happened? 

How could it have happened that she, my mother, was so cold, so brutal, so aligned with my father, that I had another dilemma without solution where I, I could either choose them or choose myself. And how does a child or even an adult resolve that? So, I resolved it as I could, my mother resolved it as she could, she lost her mother, I lost my parents, so we’ve got this intergenerational transmission of, Trauma and neglect 

[00:14:52] Randi Rubenstein: And it leaves you when you’re, you’re faced with that dilemma. I choose them or I choose myself, which is really, I choose solitude. I choose aloneness. Like I can’t rely on anyone but myself. I think for many of us that identify with that lone wolf pattern of we’re the helpers, we’re not the ones that ask for help necessarily. 

[00:15:18] Ruth Cohn: Right. 

[00:15:18] Randi Rubenstein: Where, where does that come from? If you had to choose yourself because the people that, that should be caring for you don’t feel loving and supportive and actually shame you quite often, or make you feel less than, then you choose yourself and you just try and figure it out all by yourself.

[00:15:41] Ruth Cohn: Right. And so the default for the child of neglect is this ferocious self reliance and this insistence, this disavowal of interpersonal need. I don’t need anyone. I don’t need you or anyone else. 

[00:16:03] Randi Rubenstein: It’s celebrated in our, in our culture, if it’s so celebrated, you know, it’s like, you know, my dad said to me not long ago, it was a compliment. He thought it was a compliment. Me and mom used to say you were the one we didn’t have to worry about. And I’m thinking you should have worried a little more it would have been nice. 

[00:16:22] Ruth Cohn: It leaves you on one hand you feel really empowered because you don’t need anyone on the other hand. It is so lonely,

[00:16:32] Randi Rubenstein: it’s lonely  

[00:16:34] Ruth Cohn: It’s lonely, and that’s why, for those of us who are therapists, and very often people who hear me speak or read my work, and they think they’re coming because they want to learn how to help others, they hear their own story, like you, and then they go, oh my god, that’s me.

And what they realize, and what many of us realize, is one of the ways we, if we’re not careful, deal with the loneliness, is creating these relationships, like being a therapist, like being a teacher or a helper, where I have this sort of semblance of closeness. So I’m not alone, I’m in somebody’s, you know, emotional world, but I’m not dependent. Because dependency is what’s lethal. 

And as long as I don’t need anyone and I don’t need you, we’re okay. You can tell me everything and we can be really connected, except it’s a one way street. So ultimately, I’m very lonely. 

[00:17:50] Randi Rubenstein: So interesting. I think it’s, you know, it’s hard to identify. Um, even like, you know, the women in my group, um, that, you know, come to me and I’m their coach. We’re always talking, you know, I, I changed the name of my company years ago from RandiRubenstein.Com to Mastermind Parenting. And and, and what we talk about now is I said there was something in me that knew that this was going to be a co creation. 

And because I’m a coach and not a therapist, like I’m really building my own business and I refer to therapists all the time and a lot of my members You know, they come to me because they have a difficult kid. Um, but what we know and what I think you’re talking about, you know, therapists who go into the healing professions because they want to help people with this trauma, but really they see their own story. It’s like, you’ve got to do that work yourself. 

And I think a lot of times. People come to me and it’s like, I need to fix my kid. I need to help my kid. But really what they all come to is, wow, there’s so much more to the story. My, my child. Um, you know, these strong willed kids, they’re highly sensitive, all of them. And they’re intuitive. And especially when they’re little, their spidey senses are strong. And so when we’re going through the motions of, you know, I memorized that script that I learned from the parenting expert on social media and I said it just so, why is empathy not working? 

And the kid, they knows, they know there’s an agenda there. They they’re onto you. They know that you’re not really there. They know that you’re playing a parent on TV, but like they want you to be. in there with them in the room and they sense that you’re not. And it’s this, they, but you look like you’re going through the motions of everything, but the kid is reacting because they are lonely.

They want more, they want more presence and they want to feel understood. Like they’re behaving in this way, but they want their parents to be like, there’s something to figure out here with my kid. Like there, there is something to figure out rather than, punishing them and shaming them and eventually, you know, yelling at them.

So it’s this, it’s this, this interesting problem that people come with. And it’s a very, um, I, you know, it’s taken us time, but the process of how we actually help people. Is because I think I do, you know, attract, I attract people who consider themselves cycle breakers, right? They, they want to do things differently, but they don’t really maybe want to talk about it so much. Like I came from a great family. My parents are great. Like I love them to death. Like there’s a lot of parent loyalty, but like also there’s this secret desire to do it differently. And then they do identify as cycle breakers. 

But also as you like, I’m, I was reading your book so many parts because you’re writing your book on this trauma of neglect to clinicians and I’m reading it thinking I’ve been that nightmare client I’m, you know, we’re very hard to help because we’re so self reliant. We hate rejection. Um, you know, we get very defensive over anyone criticizing us. We’re kind of nightmare therapy clients. 

So all these people that I think come to me as cycle breakers who I think many of them like me have this invisible trauma of nothingness and of neglect and what they didn’t have done for them when they were very small, um, or they didn’t feel attuned and attached, you know, the way a baby craves to feel. But nobody remembers, nobody has conscious memory. 

And so now all of a sudden we have these kids acting like little hellions. And so it’s like, I need to get some help. So they come in and, and, and they start to learn about their child and they start to learn about their child. And we have a very nurturing way that, you know, it’s really community.

You know, I heard you talk recently about like, like, you know, in therapy, how there’s so much healing that can happen within community. And I think it’s almost like there’s this peer community where I am clearly the coach. And so I am sort of like the mama bear of the community and I’m, you know, I’m fierce and loving and protective and all the things, but I mean, it’s mostly a community of women and I’ve never been in a community of women that involves zero competition, zero judgment.

I mean, really, there is no, I like to say bullshittery that goes on in my community. I don’t put up with it. It’s an inclusive community, but we’re telling the truth in our community. We’re not, there’s, you know, there’s no one upping anyone as there is in lots of parents. There’s none of that. Like we’re actually talking about the real things that we’re dealing with.

And so I, it’s a very safe, nurturing space, but it’s also really a co creation, I think, which has made it feel safe to all of us who are the neglect survivors, because we get to feel You know, we get to feel helpful. We get to feel even when we’re telling the truth of some shit show that happened in each of our households.

And I, you know, the way I coach is I, I teach through story a lot. I tell a lot of my own stories. Um, I’m super transparent. Um, you know, there’s some things I hold back if I know, but my kids have actually given me the green light, like they believe hard in what I’m doing and, and so they want to help other kids that are out, you know, they want to help. So they’re like, no, you can tell that story. And they’ve each come on the podcasts, you know, and told different stories. 

And so I realized like, there’s something that we’re always saying, like, I don’t know what the hell this Mastermind Parenting group is. All we know is that it feels like we were attending a party and it feels really good to be here.

[00:24:13] Ruth Cohn: There’s something that you said that’s so important. 

[00:24:18] Randi Rubenstein: Okay. 

[00:24:19] Ruth Cohn: I want to make sure that it stands out. And it’s the same thing that happened with you and your son. And that is that you see him, that you’re present with him, like with these women in your groups, you are seeing them, you are present with them, because that is the core of the missing experience, that is the core of this nothing, and when you.

When you have an infant, and we’re talking minutes, days old, as soon as they have their eyes open, if I look up into the eyes, the loving other, and I see a joyful reflection of me. I see a reflection of me. I experience myself as having value. I experience myself as existing. I experience myself as being a source of joy, a source of love.

And it begins there, that there’s this connection that is so nourishing to that little soul, and they can’t think yet. They only have sensory, emotional, imaginal, somatic memory. That’s it. They don’t have any narrative yet. But these feelings of these different dimensions get logged in their body, and when that same infant looks up and they see an angry face or they see a terrified face or they see a depressed face or they don’t see anyone at all. That little nervous system is going to be very dysregulated is going to be very sort of out of balance, and they’re going to be craving something. 

So fast forward 10, 20, 30 years, the women in your group who didn’t get that, and then they’re there in this circle with you, and you see them, and you hear them, and actually reflect back to them who they are, what they’re saying, how it makes sense. And they look into your eyes and they see themselves like your son. That is the most healing thing that you give to these women and to their children. 

[00:27:29] Randi Rubenstein: And to myself. It is given, you know, it’s like, And that’s what I, I, I, I’ve had lots of business advisors or people who’ve joined my team at times and, and where I finally landed is, is I’m like, I don’t want to run some big business. I just want, it’s like what Gloria Steinem talked about. I have a sharing circle. Like we’re telling people our real stories and, and what’s really going on behind the curtains when our kids have had a hard day, when we’ve had a hard day, when we lost it, where there was a part of us that was coming up and we don’t even know what the hell took over and to have a safe space to come and to say, Let’s dissect this. Something happened and I don’t, I don’t understand it. 

And then it is true, Ruth, I have to say that you’re, you really picked up on something, you know, Lindsey, who works with me, who’s on my team and I call her my co parent. So you know, she really, she really is great with all the logistics and different things and um, lots of things that I’m not great at. She’s great at. 

And um, and Lindsey will say, I don’t know how you remember the details you remember. And each one of our members stories or with people that worked with us years ago, like, and I said, like, I’m fascinated by, like, I’m fascinated by everyone’s stories. Like, like, I truly am curious and interested and fascinated and, and I’ll say, like, I’ll be coaching a mom.

And all of a sudden I’ll, you know, on her child, her three year old that was having separation anxiety. And I’ll, I reference a story from over a year ago, like not even thinking about it. Well, it seems like his little sensitive nervous system, his little being was born to the exact right mom. Because remember when you moved into your new neighbor and the, and the ladies invited you to play Bunco and you were thinking maybe you didn’t want to go play Bunco because you’re too introverted and normally your husband, who’s the extrovert, you’re much more comfortable socializing with him. And then you ended up going and playing Bunco and like moved past that and, and had a really good night. Right? 

Like, it seems like this little delicious boy is experiencing bunco anxiety at preschool, you know, in thinking of, and she came back to me so many times after that and said, that bunco reference. She’s like, like, she felt so seen. 

[00:30:05] Ruth Cohn: You heard and remembered. You were paying attention. You heard and you remembered. That is a missing experience. When you hear and pay attention and remember, I must exist. I must have value, or I would be out of sight and out of mind. And I’ll tell you, when I was a kid growing up, my parents never ever knew any of my friends, if I ever had any, names.

[00:30:46] Randi Rubenstein: And 

[00:30:47] Ruth Cohn: so you end up feeling like, wow, either I don’t matter at all, or I don’t exist, Or some combination there of 

[00:31:00] Randi Rubenstein: And then I didn’t want them when I got older like I didn’t want them to know. 

[00:31:06] Ruth Cohn: That was your anger. That was your hurt. But I want to go back to something you said that was so important. So it doesn’t get lost. 

And that is, you were talking about someone in your group who came in. And she was saying about her child, something went wrong. And, once again, we’re talking about this all kinds of ways. The mother never apologized. Your mother never apologized. My mother never made a mistake in her entire life, so there was nothing to apologize for ever. Right. Like yours. 

And these women not only you’re teaching them not only to kind of sort out what went wrong there, but my guess is, when you establish what went wrong there, they’re able to do the repair with the child. 

[00:32:17] Randi Rubenstein: Hmm. 

[00:32:17] Ruth Cohn: You and I never had the experience of repair. We didn’t know about relationship with relationship repair. Your experience and my experience is when we get disconnected, which is a fact of life because, you know, I’ll spill something, I’ll run out in traffic, I’ll do something that upsets my mother and she’ll, you know, as mothers get, upset sometimes. And there’s a disconnect. 

If the mother is able to take the lead in reconnecting, child can relax because they know if we get disconnected, We’ll get back together. I don’t have to figure out how to get back to you. You’re going to come to me and help me, like you did with your son, Randi. So, there’s something, there’s a way that you’re breaking the intergenerational chain, so many ways. But one of the ways that you’re doing it in this group is you’re, you’re explicitly and implicitly teaching about repair. 

And I’ll say one more thing about repair because it is so important. And that is, you know, there’s a really in, in my field, in the neglect field, there’s a major buzzword, which is regulation and dysregulation. And I always say regulation and dysregulation has two meanings. There’s nervous system regulation, and there’s relationship regulation.

And right now, I’m, I’m, well, nervous system regulation is when I get upset. and an infant getting upset. They don’t know how to calm down. They need the mother to come and pick them up and hold them and soothe them and comfort them and let them know it’s okay. And then they begin to learn about the ebb and flow of arousal, which I don’t mean sexual arousal, I mean nervous system arousal. In the nervous system, the mother regulates the infant, the infant learns to self regulate through this experience of ebb and flow. 

There’s another definition for regulation, which has to do with relationship regulation. And that is what we were talking, what I was talking about a minute ago, which is when there’s a rupture, when there’s, you know, a disconnect, and I come back to you and repair the disconnect. We’re back together and the child or the adult feels safe. And then they learn it’s okay to make a mistake in relationship because we can get back together.

And I remember when my husband, I’ll just say this and I’ll stop. When my husband said to me, maybe 20 years ago, it was so moving, I still, I quote this all the time. He said, I feel safe with you. He said, because I know if we get disconnected, we’ll get back together. He was a floridly neglected child. He could never count on that. So he could never, ever be safe in any relationship. 

So we can make mistakes and we all do. And if we can come back together, like you were saying when we first couldn’t make this, you know, text up work. Oh, well, you know, it’s not like you’re bad or I’m bad. We’ll work it out somehow. We’ll do it another day. We’ll do it in a different, you know, format. 

[00:36:41] Randi Rubenstein: Let’s break that down a little bit because, so when we went to record, we were having some technical difficulties on the platform that I typically record these podcasts on. And so we were problem solving it. Right. And when you think about, you know, life’s not going the way you had planned and now all of a sudden you have to stay in your thinking brain and problem solve.

Hmm. Well maybe let’s try this. What’s your audio on? What’s the setting? Well, let’s, okay, let me call you. Let me write this message down. Let’s like she couldn’t hear, Ruth couldn’t hear me and I could hear her and then I did a little test record. So we kept problem solving and problem solving and problem solving and And so I’m kind of, and really after we figured it out, we just decided, let’s just, let’s just try it on zoom and record it on zoom. Maybe the audio quality is not going to be quite as great, but who cares? And um, as this other one. 

And, and once we got on here, I shared with Ruth, I said, you know, really what I was thinking the whole time was. We’ll either figure this out or we won’t. It’s not the end of the world. You know, it was like, it’s like a tool that I teach a lot of times to my mom’s like big deal, little deal.

Like when we find ourselves getting worked up about, you know, our kid who’s refusing to get in the bathtub or, or, you know, won’t get out of bed for school or whatever it is. It’s like big deal, little deal. Like is anyone going to die over this? Like, you know, like I used to say to myself in my head when I found myself like, like running late, taking my kids to preschool years and years ago. And and so it was like, I would lose track of time, I’d be, you know, fucking around in the morning. And then all of a sudden, I’m like, it’s five till nine, it starts, let’s go, let’s go. And I would make everyone crazy. And they’re like little kids living in their present moment, and they don’t have a sense of urgency. And before you know it, like, I’m sending them off. It’s just chaos. 

So what I started doing was saying to myself like, okay, so you’ll get your shit together tomorrow. You obviously didn’t, you lost track of time today, which was pretty normal for me to like, have this like 10 minute punctuality disorder, right? Like constantly just being like, Oh God, I need to be there now. Right. And so then I was like, okay, so you’ll either run late or you won’t. Maybe tomorrow you’ll, you’ll get it together because this feeling is terrible. But you’re not going to make other people crazy, you’re not going to make other people pay for your, for what’s going, what you caused here.

And so I would have a mantra in my head, but would remind me and I would say like, it’s okay, it’s fine. Nobody ever died because they were five,10 minutes late to preschool. It’ll be okay. Really. Settle down, sister. Like, I would talk to myself, like, in my head this way to kind of just like almost like bring some levity to it, which is like, it’s, it’s really going to be okay if they’re late to preschool. I promise. If people judge you that you’re the mom that brings the kid late, there’s worse things in the world. And so I kind of talk myself off a ledge to sort of, you know, keep it in perspective so that I don’t go off the rail so that I can continue problem solving. 

[00:39:54] Ruth Cohn: I need to say you because it was so live and it’s so much on point that when that whole thing happened for us, and we problem solved together. You mostly did it, but we, we worked it out and it worked and you were, however, you were managing it inside yourself. I came out of it feeling so connected to you, and feeling safe, and feeling calm, and feeling like let’s go ahead and do the show, because I didn’t even need to kind of, you know, regroup and find my ground again, because it was, it was okay.

My point here is, that’s what you did with your son, where you stay regulated, you stay present, you’re not blaming, you’re not getting, you know, hyper aroused, you’re staying grounded, nobody ever, you know, died of being 10 minutes late to preschool or not getting on Riverside instead of Zoom, and. Let’s go. Let’s go on. 

And I thought, wow, what a great mom, because, I mean, if that’s what you’re teaching your people to do, that’s it. And ha and the most important missing experience for the child of neglect is that presence. I see you. I hear you. You matter. I’m with you. I want to help you. You’re good. It’s not your fault.

That’s, you embody that. You embodied it with your son in this example you gave us. None of us will do it perfectly. You embodied it with me that enabled me to just, ah, let’s go on. Let’s do the show. 

[00:42:28] Randi Rubenstein: Mm hmm. That’s, 

[00:42:29] Ruth Cohn: Yeah, let’s, like, and probably without any words. Your people, in your groups, are getting that. You remember her whole story, that you heard it a year ago. You heard it. You paid attention. You understood the significance. You brought it up again, when it was relevant. All of that makes her feel like, I exist? I exist in your mind? Even when, you know, all this time has gone by, and much of that time I wasn’t even in your presence. But you remember that? 

You didn’t get that. I didn’t get that. Your son’s getting that. Your coach-ees are getting that. You’re teaching, without any words, the essence of what’s missing. And the reason why nothing feels so like nothing is because of you. The child feels like nothing. I must be like a ghost or I must not exist, or I need to do something to earn my existence or, you know, somehow make up for my sorry existence or something about being important enough for you to really register that I’m there.

[00:44:10] Randi Rubenstein: I pulled, um, something that you wrote just to give people like some real, like a, like something to kind of like sink their teeth into in terms of your definition. Of this trauma, this trauma that we’re talking about, the trauma of neglect. Um, you said, you said, and, and I’d love for you to do this live if you know, if you don’t mind, but you said for years I’ve wanted to shine a spotlight on neglect, but I haven’t had the courage to do so. I’ve finally written a book that does this and despite being somewhat shy, I want to shout it from the rooftops. 

I’m so glad. I’m so glad that you are being so brave and you’re doing that. Um, because I do truly believe that the information and knowledge inside this book can have a real impact on the world. On the world, right? Like this invisible trauma, like I’d love for you to just kind of unpack it a little bit so people can understand what we’re talking about here and why I’ve, because I think it’s a hard, it’s a hard hurt to identify. 

And, um, and it certainly doesn’t sound like a big, I mean, I can imagine if, God forbid, my parents had, you know, heard this conversation. I can imagine the level of gaslighting be to be like, like as high as it could possibly go. Like, are you kidding me? What you, we paid for your college. You went to summer camp. Are you kidding me? You know?

And, and the thing with, with my mom is that my mom, she really was a very nice lady, um, and, you know, really like a kind, gentle soul and she was not a yeller and um, you know, she was the enabler to the yeller. So she was not a yeller. Um, and I have gone into, it’s funny that, that, that, that book, The Apology, I loved it. Like for me to admit, I still want an apology really. I had made peace. I understand. And she never talked about herself or her story or the past like that. There was nothing but surface conversations like we don’t dig into anything hard or deep or. 

Um, So it was hard to identify because everybody was like, Oh, your mom. She’s a nice lady. Oh, I really love her. I, she seems great. Anyone that she was a workaholic. So anybody that worked with her and she was very proud of her work. Um, but as a nice lady. I think it would be hard to identify, you know? 

And so I really kind of did some digging and I created my own narrative. I took a course years ago with a friend of mine called, um, a family constellations course. And I learned in that course about the mother wound and, um, the break in the bond as she called it. And, um, and I remember it. All of a sudden realizing, Oh, I was named after my grandfather. They needed an R name for Grandpa Robbie died while my mom was pregnant. My mom was 21, pregnant with her second baby and her father at the age of 59, she’s, she’s almost eight months pregnant, drops dead on the operating table. So they, you know, having some kind of routine surgery. 

So my mom. And her husband, my dad was off, um, in the war. So my dad was off. I guess he like came home just long enough to knock her up again So my mom has a two year old. She’s 21. She has a two year old. She’s got a new baby She relied on her mom I think a lot for support now her mom is in grief because she just lost and my mom is in grief because they just lost her dad who was a big personality so she was in deep grief and way in over her head when she was being abused giving birth to me and then having me.

So I felt like I, I had like, like I understood why did I never really, like my brother and sister have a totally different, had a totally different connection with my mom. Why, what is wrong with me that I don’t feel a deep connection or attachment to my mom and she’s a nice lady and she, my brother and sister who I’m super close with, they had a great relationship with her. So what’s wrong with me that I don’t? You know, so I’d done this digging, but I still like, there’s still a grief in me, like learning some of the things I’m learning from you. 

[00:48:59] Ruth Cohn: Of course, Randi, and what you’ve said is such a perfect segue for me to describe how someone figures out if this designation fits. And I will ask them, and you just answered the question, what do you know about what was going on in your mother’s life when she was pregnant with you? What do you know about what was going on in your mother’s life when you were an infant? 

You just answered those questions. So, she was pregnant with you, she was in grief, her husband was gone. He was in war. She didn’t know what was going to happen to him. She had two little kids. She was a teenager herself. She was pregnant again, and then her father drops dead. Suddenly. So here you are, in utero, swimming in stress hormones, swimming in a bath of grief and terror and uncertainty. That’s where that little infant is growing. Then you’re born. Did your father come home for the birth? 

[00:50:26] Randi Rubenstein: have no idea. 

[00:50:28] Ruth Cohn: So you don’t know if she was alone. She had just lost her father. So her mother was in grief. So here she is. She has two little kids, little ones. She’s giving birth. Her husband is in war, which is filled with uncertainty and fear. Her father suddenly died, which is gonna make her more fearful about her husband. Her mother is probably MIA because she’s in grief.

So here’s this young woman. She’s got two toddlers. I don’t know who’s taking care of them. So then, she gives birth. I don’t know who was there when she gave birth, I don’t know who was there when she got home. And then, this infant looks up. What face, if any, is that infant going to be looking up to? Do you think that infant is going to be looking up and seeing a loving, joyful reflection of me? If there’s anybody there at all, I don’t think so. 

What was your first experience as we extrapolated? And I’m making it up, but I’m making it up from real material, and then when you begin to put it together this way, and have empathy for that infant, because all that infant needs is to look up and there’s somebody there that’s reflecting back to me that I matter and that scoops me up and that comforts me, and it’s not a completely dysregulated nervous system themselves, or so filled with terror that they can’t possibly be a safe haven for a newborn.

So that would explain. why your relationship with your mother might be different. And, you know, I hope I’m not being too dramatic, but this is a devastating story. So answers the question so beautifully about why would you come up feeling the way you do? Because these experiences, that’s where they begin.

And it’s so deep in your nervous system that we can’t get there with narrative, because we don’t have a story in words. We only put together the story about what we know. We don’t want to invent a story, but we have it. We, we worked with real material, but we also got into the experience of that infant and Oh my god, that makes so much sense.

Your mother was in high trauma. What does that mean for that little baby? And those are your first minutes? Your first days? Let alone weeks and months. So she takes the little baby home. She’s got two toddlers around. Her mother is MIA, her husband, I don’t know if he’s there or not. Who’s helping her? Who’s helping her with the baby? Who’s helping her with the other kids? Toddlers. You know, two of them. 

[00:54:21] Randi Rubenstein: One toddler actually. My dad had an older brother, so he’s two years older than me, but still, she had her hands full. She had a two year old and she had a newborn. And the interesting thing, Ruth, is, like, I did this work quite a while ago. Um, really trying to understand because I really was trying to like, not feel guilty that I never wanted to be around her and, um, cause she really was nice, you know, and I felt guilty all the time. I felt so ashamed. And, and so I just wanted to be around her without feeling this guilt. This, this cringe feeling inside my body, this annoyed feeling constantly because I felt myself feeling annoyed and I’m thinking, you’re not that good of an actor and you’re acting and like everything she said annoyed me.

And then I was like, she’s a nice lady. Like don’t be such an asshole, you know? So I felt like, so I really wanted to stop having that annoyed feeling. So I really worked hard to understand and to forgive and, and, you know, and now that I’ve started learning about the early attachment, you know, the, the pre verbal, um, things that happened to us and, and seeing, you know how that has played out my life how I still you know, you know I really feel like being the mom. I wish I had I’d I had had has healed me in so many ways. 

But there’s still more work to be done. There’s still you know areas where I’m like, this is the there are body things, you know, like I had this crazy panic attack last year that something that I felt totally out of control for like 48 hours. And it’s like, my body’s finally feeling safe to start feeling some of the things that it’s repressed for so long. 

[00:56:21] Ruth Cohn: So like. Um, there’s, you know, as I understand it, like even me being like, yeah, I understand there was a story behind it. I understand that didn’t make her a bad person. I understand she was human. And I also now am like allowing myself to grieve for the baby that didn’t get what I needed, you know, like, and that feels super vulnerable to me. It feels kind of like wah, wah, like I gaslight myself about that. 

And Randi, it’s not only that you didn’t get what you needed, but that experience, that early, early experience becomes the template for relationship. Of course, this child grows up feeling, I must be unworthy, I must be, you know, a blight, a pain, 

[00:57:19] Randi Rubenstein: Must be a pain in the ass. That’s exactly how I felt. I felt like I was a royal pain in the ass to her, and as a result I have had, many, if not many, I’ll just say many friendships. It’s been interesting. It’s really impacted me most through female friendships.

I’ve had many not reciprocal female friendship where all of a sudden it dawns on me that I was the one, I was the one doing, I was the one trying to help, you know, whatever. It was probably. It’s super codependent and annoying, but I was the one, you know, doing the things and I, I was like, you know, I didn’t need anything in return.

I was, you know, and then, and so like realizing like about five years ago I was like, Oh, I don’t want to have any more non reciprocal friendships. And, um, and so changing the rules with some of the old friendships, like. Those friendships dissolved and went away because it was not the dynamic either of us were used to and it’s too awkward and uncomfortable and for me to be like, I don’t want to be the one doing all the reaching out. I don’t want to do the 1, be the 1 that’s constantly hosting or inviting or helping or listening. I want to, like, I want this to be a 2 way street. 

[00:58:37] Ruth Cohn: Randi is a real manifestation of your healing as the child of neglect constructs relationships where they, as you described previously, you don’t let the other give you anything. Because it, God forbid, will puncture the self reliance, so you really defend against need, and so you don’t receive, and we don’t receive. I always teach people. It takes a lot of humility, and a lot of courage to receive to receive a gift, to receive reciprocity.

It takes a lot of humility and, um, and courage to break the pattern of being only the giver and not the receiver. So the fact that you could make that shift in your relationship pattern shows that you will, you’re really kind of moving along the path of this whole, you know, trauma of neglect. 

Because the Child of Neglect constructs relationships where the other person doesn’t get to reciprocate. And that can be, I mean, some people just eat it up because they’re greedy, but some people, they feel really annoyed because they don’t get to be equal. 

[01:00:25] Randi Rubenstein: I could totally see that. I will say it seems like I have a lot less friends now since I’ve, 

[01:00:31] Ruth Cohn: Because it’s, you know, it’s better to have fewer, but real connection, than to have a whole lot of followers, if you will.

[01:00:41] Randi Rubenstein: Mm hmm. So will you give sort of a, uh, I always do everything not. In a linear fashion, just so you know, that’s just me as a human. Um, will you give the, your definition of this neglect trauma that we keep referring to? 

[01:00:58] Ruth Cohn: Neglect is the universe of missing experiences. It’s a universe of missing experiences. It begins, and the most, and this is, I think, really important takeaway for your people, that you won’t arrive at it, By remembering because, and you know, a lot of people, they tell themselves, Oh, well, you know, I, like your mother said to you, we paid for your school, you have to go to camp and my mother used to say, it’s the blame your mother generation, but, um, so it looks really good on the outside, which is what makes the child of neglect feel so much shame and they say, nothing happened to me.

And that’s, that’s right. Nothing happened. A lot of missing experiences, beginning in that early, early resonance, where we get seen, we get mirrored, we get heard, we get remembered, we get comforted, we have the experience. That we matter. And so, the key time when this trauma really, really has an impact, which is why people don’t recognize it, it’s well before we have autobiographical memory. We only know in our bodies, in our emotions. 

You know, one thing, and this is, this is something that, you know, even now I’m aware of, and the child of neglect believes, if you have any other choices, you won’t pick me. And I can remember, I was, um, I was presenting at a conference. I looked out, and there were, like, all these people in the room, and I thought, wow, they had other choices of workshops they could go to, and they came here, and it was sort of like, it still surprises me that, you know, you chose me when you had other options, because they don’t, we don’t expect that.

How, I mean, the simple answer is, it’s a universe of missing experiences, beginning in this early, early non experience of resonance, mirroring, feeling seen, being reflected back, who I am, that I exist. That’s where it begins. So, you don’t even know. That we exist, let alone have a right to exist. 

[01:04:15] Randi Rubenstein: And we become really self reliant.

[01:04:18] Ruth Cohn: That’s right. That’s right. And so if you look at your, the people that you’re, you’re helping with this stuff and they begin to examine the self reliance in their lives. And you know, it’s interesting because since I broke my arm. I’ve had to ask for help and it’s still difficult, you know, and my husband who’s so devoted, you know, still it’s hard for me to ask him for help. Can you help me get out of the car? You know, crazy shit like that. I was always an endurance athlete. Now I need help getting out of the car. 

You know what? I do. We never knew that. 

[01:05:05] Randi Rubenstein: Feel so vulnerable. My back went out, um, I’ve never had a back issue and it was super, it was emotional. There was something big that I had worked through and then I didn’t process it. I just moved on. Oh good. I, you know, I got, went back to the scene of the crime of this trauma. I kind of connected some dots and then moving on. 

And at the time I was working a ton and my kids were younger. It was, this was 2018. And, um, And about two months after I had kind of gone to the root of this traumatic thing from my life from when I was very young, um, I, my back, I’d never had a back issue. And all of a sudden I had this debilitating lower back pain. 

And so, um, you know, and everyone in my family has had back issues or whatever and my husband’s had a back herniated discs for years, you know like athletic injuries and whatnot and everybody’s bringing me remedies. I’m going to doctors. Everybody’s like giving me whatever pills, you know there’s all kinds of things people were bringing over pot, I mean people were just everyone was trying to help but um, nothing was helping. 

And, and then I started learning about Dr. Sarno’s work and I watched the documentary All The Rage, and And I started like journaling and journaling and journaling and literally I was in bed for three weeks. Like it was like it and and I’m not even a person like my kids have barely ever even like I don’t get sick a lot knock on wood and so Um, not only was I in bed, Ruth, for three weeks, like to get out of bed, it took me like 15 minutes to roll to my side and then put a foot and, um, and really I was journaling and just resting.

And after three weeks of do, Oh, and I was super mean. And so where my kids were used to like me just, you know, being exactly as I am here, um, like they’d come in and they would. My, my daughter taught me a term recently, weaponized incompetence. 

[01:07:32] Ruth Cohn: Um, 

[01:07:32] Randi Rubenstein: yeah so they would come in doing their weaponized incompetence. Like I can’t, like, you know, something that I typically would handle or do that they should know how to do. So they’d ask me like a stupid question or whatever. And I, I was like, I’d be like, why are you asking me this? Really? You at this age don’t know how to do. And they’d be like, sheesh, okay, fine. 

And like, for years they would refer back, they’re like, remember, especially my youngest Cory, he’s like, remember when you were so mean when you were, when your back was out and you were so mean? I was like, I was so mean, I was so mean. He’s like, you were so mean, you were a little scary. Like I would bark at people and that just was not me. But it was like, yeah, yeah. I think there was something shifting in that time for me where it’s like, just, I couldn’t hold it back all in anymore. 

Lower back pain. What the somatic therapists say about that is when you have lower back issues. There’s something your body’s telling you about support. Are you getting enough support in your life or do you have to hold yourself and everybody else up so much that your back can’t take it anymore? 

I think that was the truth. And I think that’s part of the reason when the mean was just taking over. It was like, I’m not, I’m not doing it anymore. I can’t. I have to, I, there’s nothing for me to do but be in this bed. And I was like, I didn’t want to solve their problems from afar and they were super capable. Um, but yeah, I think it was like, I was refusing to be that support for that time.

[01:09:24] Ruth Cohn: You needed to receive the support. The body was letting you know that. The other thing that I always say, and you know from my work, is the child of neglect has no reason to stand up for themselves. Because they don’t, they don’t think they have, we don’t think we have any right to. Or any value. So speak up on my own behalf. Take a stand. Get a voice. Stand up for myself. Get a spine. Spine? 

That’s one of the great tasks of healing. Is to get, as you know, a voice and get a spine. So when the back starts talking to us, like yours, Like mine, there’s something going on there about getting a spine, taking a stand on my own behalf, because I exist. I’m worthy. I’m not just here for everybody else’s benefit. 

And so here you are. You’re tired of being the one to always give, give, give, give, give. You know, you’re standing up and saying, no, no, no, find another solution. I need to take care of myself or I need you to take care of me. 

The point being, taking a stand, standing up, actually feeling the length of your spine. So, that you have height, you have power, you’re grounded, and that’s what your, I think your back was teaching you about, because boy, you’ve come a long way since then. 

[01:11:34] Randi Rubenstein: And it’s funny, it, I mean it hasn’t, knock on wood, it hasn’t acted up for probably at least two years now, but then after that, it probably acted up maybe like three or four more times. And I started really being able to connect what am I not processing? What am I not dealing with? What is actually not okay with me that I’ve been pushing away? 

You know, and it was confusing because I’ve always seemed really outspoken and willing to stand up for certain causes and for other people and, um, for children everywhere, right? Like that is what I pretty much do is help parents to see what, what could the child’s perspective be? Like there’s something going on and, um, but I think, but I’m fine. I think it was finding that voice to stand up for, for myself. Right. And even admitting that. 

[01:12:34] Ruth Cohn: So Randi, we should probably be wrap up for today. So that is a really good note to end on. I do want to say, in fact, this is a sidebar. I get a lot of mail from people all over the world. And, um, I got an email the other day from this woman who said, um, I’m recognizing I’m a child of neglect. She said, um, I’m, I’m about to become a mother. I really want to do some work so I can process my, um, you know, my neglect trauma so I can really be present as a mother. I’m going to send her to your group because, you know, I can’t take people. 

But there’s one last thing I want to say that’s really important to me to say to mothers. And this is sort of a 21st century thing. And that is, you know, very often parents will say to me, so what piece of advice do you have for parents?

And I get in their face and I look straight at them and I say, turn right. off your cell phone. Because how often do you see a mother sort of buried in her phone and the little child tugging at her sleeve? And we’ve got this whole new generation of cell phone neglect or screen neglect. And people talk a lot about screen time. For their kids and regulating their kids screen time. I say regulate one’s own screen time. You’re really present because too many mothers, too many parents get lost in their phone. 

[01:14:33] Randi Rubenstein: And don’t want to, it’s a hard thing to admit if you’re using this thing to numb out, right? I think is. And then you’re, it’s like, but my kids just are on their screens all the time.

And it’s like, well, why are they on their screens all the time? Chances are like they weren’t get, you know, it’s like they, the, the screen is serving a purpose for the child, but nobody seems to be talking about how much are we actually on our screens? Why are our kids? Feeling like, you know, why, why are our kids going to the screen so much?

I mean, I think it’s really hard to hold yourself accountable and for people to even admit this. 

[01:15:17] Ruth Cohn: Maybe the kids are going to the screen because we’re not there. Right. Cause there’s something that they’re needing. That they can’t get from us. 

[01:15:31] Randi Rubenstein: Yeah. 

[01:15:32] Ruth Cohn: So, to raise awareness, to be mindful of one’s own screen time.

But you Randi, are doing a great mitzvah for the next generation. And for those of you who are not in our tribe, mitzvah means a good deed. And it’s more than a good deed, because everything we do to break the chain of intergenerational trauma has so much meaning in this sorry world, and there’s so much going on in this world. Every little bit that we can do for the next generation is so important, and you’re doing it. 

[01:16:19] Randi Rubenstein: You are too and I, um, I’m just so grateful that I found you and I happened upon your brilliance and, um, I mean, I highly encourage everyone. To check out Ruth. She is a psychotherapist. She lives in the Bay Area in San Francisco she’s had a long and super impressive career and She has a website. She has a book. She has a course, all of them are fantastic. I’m on your website regularly. I’m on your newsletter list. I watch the videos you send out. I read the blogs that you send and, um, and I just absolutely loved the course. Um, I think what it was it a six module? 

[01:17:09] Ruth Cohn: Um, I’m not sure, but two things about that, and I want to make sure that everyone knows my website is ruthcohnmft.com and there’s lots and lots of free stuff. I write a blog every other week, and all the blogs are archived on the website. So you can read all kinds of stuff about trauma and neglect on the website. I have a YouTube channel, all free. And, um, so there’s lots to read without you having to spend any money.

Um, there’s another course that’s about to come out. This book, um, there’s a group called Quantum Way, and they’re doing, they, we, we recorded it. It’s just about to launch anytime now. You can keep an eye out for that. You know, the Therapy Wisdom course, which you, um, SAW and the Quantum Way course are not free, but the YouTube channel is all free, and there’s other stuff on the website, podcasts, and please help yourselves.

[01:18:24] Randi Rubenstein: And even though your book was written, you know, for therapists, I got a lot out of your book. 

[01:18:31] Ruth Cohn: Actually I’m working on two books right now. One of them is a workbook and the workbook is designed for therapists because I get so many, you know, requests for training. And from all over the world, and I, I can’t do it all, so I’m wanting to give people something that they can work with on their own, or in their groups, or with their, you know, sort of colleagues.

So I’m working on that one, and that will also be something that, like you say, I try and make them kind of crossover, so people and therapists can use them. And I’m working on a book for the lay public about neglect, which is good for I was hoping for 2025, but I didn’t expect all this health stuff. But it’s going to be called Too Much of Nothing. And that is for the lay public. 

[01:19:32] Randi Rubenstein: Okay, good. So that book’s coming out. Yeah. I mean, I thank you for shining a spotlight and for training more therapists on, I, I, you know, we’re kind of a lost population. It’s hard to identify us because we’re so damn self reliant and capitalism celebrates us for being so self reliant, right?

[01:19:52] Ruth Cohn: You got it. So, so good to be with you. Yes. And. You know where to find me. 

[01:19:59] Randi Rubenstein: Thank you. Thanks for being here and thanks for listening everyone. 

Thanks for listening today, guys. I hope you picked up some tips, tools, maybe some baby steps for creating more balance and boundaries in your life. And I just wanted to let you know, if you want to continue moving the needle forward in creating this for yourself, having a happier household, I want you to go to my website and check out mastermindparenting.com. We have three beginning programs, and if you need some accountability and more support then please look for the one that would be a good fit for you.

And, as always, we’re on all the social channels under Mastermind Parenting, on Instagram it’s mastermind_parenting. And, you know, periodically I do pop up on different Instagram lives, Facebook lives where I give you teaching and coaching and I love engaging with you live to help you help your strong-willed kids so that they can feel better, because when they feel better they do better, and I love, love, love getting to know you guys. 

So thanks for listening. If you like this podcast, please don’t forget to subscribe, rate and review. Super, super appreciative.