317: How and (How Not To) Apologize… Better

[00:00:00] Randi Rubenstein: My name is Randi Rubenstein, and welcome to the Mastermind Parenting Podcast. At Mastermind Parenting, we’re on a mission to support strong-willed kids and the families that love them. 

Hi everyone. Welcome to this week. This week I want to talk about apologizing. I wanna talk about the art of apology, why it’s important. Everyone seems to be teaching it now. Years ago, I was the only one teaching it, just so you know. And now it’s like a whole thing. I’m telling you.

[00:00:32] Avery Rubenstein: Really that’s humble.

[00:00:33] Randi Rubenstein: I am telling you, it was like people were like, it never occurred to them to just own it. When you fuck up with your kids and just own it, like that’s how you have a productive conversation. Just like everyone craves the truth and kids crave that too. And so when we’ve gotten into a situation like we, us being the adult and owning our part, it just is the beginning of, a great conversation that’s gonna feel more connecting. 

Now there’s certain professionals that have called it like, it’s all about the repair. It’s all about the repair. And it’s, I know Avery has a problem Avery’s here with me again because, you know, why wouldn’t she be? Um, ’cause it’s more fun to have her here with me.

[00:01:23] Avery Rubenstein: Right.

[00:01:24] Randi Rubenstein: I think I’ve just been holding a place for her for all these years.

[00:01:27] Avery Rubenstein: Yeah. Now I feel kind of competitive though with Mel. And her daughter.

[00:01:32] Randi Rubenstein: With Mel Robbins. Okay.

[00:01:33] Avery Rubenstein: What if they’re better than us?

[00:01:35] Randi Rubenstein: Um, Mel Robbins is definitely an amazing marketer she is a business woman and she is definitely doing things on a whole level business level that I don’t aspire. To have, although I would love to have, I mean, when she, she only started her podcast like a couple years ago, maybe like two.

[00:01:57] Avery Rubenstein: Really? 

[00:01:58] Randi Rubenstein: Yeah, and she’s just a, she is a machine. And she does disseminate a lot of great information, all the things. So why we’re bringing up Mel Robbins, because I think if you’re alive, and you listen to things like this, chances are you’ve seen Mel Robbins on everyone’s podcast, including Oprah. She also got to be on Oprah.

[00:02:25] Avery Rubenstein: Go Mel.

[00:02:26] Randi Rubenstein: Go Mel. I am, I know I’m a little jealous. Um, but she wrote this book called The Let Them Theory. I have not read it. I’ve watched a couple of podcasts with her and I think you know what Mel’s good at is she, takes a concept like, the Let Them theory is really surrender energy.

Like, you know, if you were studying Buddhism and you were learning all about surrender, or you were at a yoga class and they were talking about just like surrender, surrender control, and for most of us that live in our left brain, we’re like, what the fuck does that even mean? Right. You just started yawning. Perfect. Yeah. It makes us yawn.

[00:03:06] Avery Rubenstein: I don’t, I, I will tell you that after listening to the podcast, I’m a hundred percent positive. I never need to read that book.

[00:03:14] Randi Rubenstein: Yeah.

[00:03:15] Avery Rubenstein: That was the informa. Uh, they gave it to me. That was it. Cliff Notes in an hour.

[00:03:20] Randi Rubenstein: And like I, I think we’ve already been, I mean like with thought turnarounds and what are we thinking, what are we believing? Like we sort of already live our life, right?

[00:03:30] Avery Rubenstein: Right. There was, yeah, there was a quote that she said that I wrote down that was, if you wanna change the dynamic, you have to truly want to step into their shoes. Like honey, that’s basic empathy. I don’t like.

[00:03:44] Randi Rubenstein: But she’s, but you know what she does

she brings these concepts to the mainstream. And people haven’t a lot of times heard of these things, and she makes it palatable. And she, she talks about the science. Um, so I think she’s a good lady and she’s delivering a great message.

Um, and, let them. I mean, I know where she learned it. Well, I don’t know exactly where she learned it, but it has been like a term that’s been taught in coaching circles for quite some time. And it’s about surrendering control. Like you can’t control anyone but yourself. You really can’t. 

And so, um, I think it’s such a huge mistake that most parents make. They think they can control their kids. How do I get them? or my children just aren’t being obedient, you know, there’s certain words that let me know. There’s a lot of control on the scene and, and there’s a reason why we go into trying to control other people.

It’s because when you feel out of control inside of yourself. You know, we all crave control. So if you feel out of control inside yourself, inside of your own body, of course you’re gonna try to see what you can control so you don’t feel so out of control. So you’ll try to control other people. 

And I think for parents, so many people who are raising kids, it’s like they feel overwhelmed. They feel outta control a lot of the time. They don’t understand why their kids aren’t listening to them, aren’t doing all the things, and it makes them feel very outta control. And so then they go into hyper control. And it just never works. 

You know? I mean, even controlling methods that don’t, you know, they’re like, uh, they’re like camouflaged as like, and I mean, even there’s psychologists that teach these camouflage controlling methods like bribe your kid with stickers and toys and candy. Oh, if you just do this thing this many times, then I’ll get you the thing. Or

[00:05:47] Avery Rubenstein: Right. Then they learn kindness with reward.

[00:05:49] Randi Rubenstein: And it’s bribery, it’s trickery, it’s, buying somebody to do the thing that you want them to do because I think it’s too hard to figure out, how do I get my kids to be cooperative without bribing them, without trying to control them? I don’t know another way. That’s a person who is feeling out of control in themself and feeling powerless, right? So that’s not a person that’s in their problem solving brain. That’s not a person who’s truly empathizing and seeing their kid’s perspective, and when their kid isn’t being cooperative, getting curious, and. 

So that’s what outta control people do, and I think many people just live that way. So it’s like, how do you just let them, well, you know, that’s not actually the place that you start. You can’t ever get to that place unless you start to understand, what am I thinking when my kid just won’t do whatever the thing is I’m asking them, what am I thinking about that?

Most of the time you’re thinking they don’t respect me. I suck at this. it becomes a sentence in your, in the parents’ head about themselves. So instead of getting curious about why this little tiny human who is wired to be cooperative, especially with their pack members, especially with their parents, they want to please their parents. 

So if you have a kid that’s not wanting to please, you want not wanting to be cooperative. There’s something going on with your kid. There’s something that they don’t know how to express. So you gotta get curious. But you can’t get curious if you’re thinking the sentence, they don’t respect me. I suck at this. I’m a failure. Right. You’re not, you’re gonna go into hyper control.

[00:07:28] Avery Rubenstein: Right. You’re not actually stepping into their shoes.

[00:07:31] Randi Rubenstein: right. And so, and so that whole, you know, so how do you just let them when it comes to kids. you have to find out what you’re thinking about this situation. That’s where you start. Um, you have to start with what am I making this behavior mean? 

And then, I mean, letting them really is most of the time disengaging and waiting till everyone’s back in their thinking brain, calm down. And then you can come back to your kid and this is where you have the productive conversation. And owning your role, whatever you did, because chances are you did something that contributed to your kid feeling, you know, outta control themselves and dysregulated. 

So if you can clean up your side of the street, right, if you can own that and have a proper apology by owning it, your kid, then believes you. And then they are like, oh, wait a minute, we’re doing, you’re not gonna just lecture and tell me all the ways that I was just messing up and I was rude and I was disrespectful, and you’re gonna take away this thing and this thing and this thing. Oh, now, now I’m actually listening. Now I might tell you what was going on with me, now you can actually pull it out of me and we can have an honest conversation. Right? And now we can actually problem solve something and figure it out and, and, and stop having Groundhog Day with just the same fight over and over and over

[00:09:10] Avery Rubenstein: Yeah. I like how she visualized it as tug of war. It was like you’re constantly in your defensive, both sides. And then as soon as you give ’em some slack and come to them with the apology or with the understanding, no one wants to tug on a rope that doesn’t have any resistance. You

[00:09:28] Randi Rubenstein: Mm-hmm.

[00:09:29] Avery Rubenstein: It really helped me see it in my mind.

[00:09:31] Randi Rubenstein: Right, it’s like you’re, that’s that surrender energy of, I’m gonna clean up my side of the street. I’m not gonna pull against you and tell you all the ways I’m gonna let go. Right. And I’m gonna let you be in your, whatever it is you’re feeling. I’m gonna let you be in that and I’m just gonna focus on cleaning up my side of the street. You know? 

And it doesn’t, it’s not that hard. Like, you know, if you were, if all of a sudden you have a kid that was shut down, I mean, I can’t tell you how many times I’m coaching moms and they’ve. Like they already, they come and they already know the answer, but they’re sort of trying to talk themselves out of the answer.

Um, like, let me give you an example. I had a mom, she’s been, you know, in the Mastermind for several years and, um, One of her kids has gotten much more cooperative, and her little boy who’s older he’s sort of doubling down. Like the violence is escalating, the bad words are escalating. 

You know, for a very long time she could only see all of their terrible behavior, but she wasn’t really yet able to own or see how her behavior contributed to it. Because when she would get pushed really far, of course she would lose her shit, you know? And, um, she couldn’t really go there in that, she just wanted to know, you know, she was very, always very like, like, just tell me what the con, what should the consequence be? She and she’d get very confused and this is like a really smart medical professional and she’s awesome. Okay. Which is when it came to her kids, she’d just be in her own blind spot.

 So she’s really been digging in and doing some deep work with some different therapists, and this little boy, even though he’s doubling down and his behaviors have been getting worse, and now they’re also being, they’re bad at school and she’s getting reports from school and all the different things.

He’s been doing this thing where he comes in in the morning and he gets in bed with her and her husband. And, but she told me recently he doesn’t actually cuddle. He just comes and gets in the middle and just kind of lays there. And so we were talking about it and I said, I said, is there any kind of stroking or any kind of hugging? She’s like, oh no, he does not like to be touched. 

So the other morning, it was a terrible morning, he didn’t come in as early as he had been and she had to get up and get ready for work and she was in the bathroom or whatever, and she kind of heard him go in there and, and he walked in and she, he saw that she wasn’t in the bed anymore and he immediate, he all of a sudden was angry.

He was like, you know. Hate you or something. And he like stormed out. And then a little bit later, I guess after she came outta the bathroom, he was like, where were you? And she was like, oh, I was, I was in the bathroom. And he was like, oh, I didn’t know where you were. Which, that was his way of giving an olive branch to say, I know. Doesn’t that make you so sad?

[00:12:38] Avery Rubenstein: Yeah.

[00:12:39] Randi Rubenstein: ‘Cause this stuff isn’t on her radar because she didn’t have this kind of mothering, she didn’t have this kind of care. she didn’t, you know, it wasn’t even on her radar that he was basically giving her an olive branch and like letting her know, like, I look forward to coming in and starting my day by laying next, like my body next to you, you know?

And so she was just kind of like, oh, sorry, I had to get ready for work. And so there was, and so then his behavior just escalated all morning. There were F-bombs. She walked downstairs. He was like,

[00:13:12] Avery Rubenstein: I love when little kids cuss.

[00:13:16] Randi Rubenstein: When little kids just like, I know. I don’t know why we like when little kids are just

[00:13:20] Avery Rubenstein: So funny.

[00:13:22] Randi Rubenstein: I’m just not putting up with it. It’s like you, adults, you need to figure out what all this behavior means, but I’m not having it. and he’s like sitting in the, he’s like standing in the kitchen and he’s like chugging a orange Fanta like, there’s absolutely no sugar happening in the morning and certainly not soda. And he’s just defying everything, just chugging a, uh, Fanta and um. 

 And she never takes the bait. She does not argue back. She’s letting him, right? So she’s surrendering. She’s just letting him, it’s just dealing. She’s like, this is a shitty morning. It is what it is. I’m not gonna escalate the situation. So she sees that he is not ready when she, you know, she’s been very clear. The car leaves at this time. She, she sees that he is not ready. So she just grabs his stuff, takes it to the car, her and the other child go to the car.

And when he comes to the car, he’s pissed that she took his stuff without the permission and it’s just, and that, I mean, he literally got out of the car to school saying, you know, I fing hate you have a terrible day, or something like that. And then she got calls from school later. He, you know, there was all kinds of behaviors at school. He, he was having a terrible day.  

And I said, you know, when you have a kid that’s behaving like this, not taking the bait is, is a small miracle. 

It’s like, that was amazing. You did not escalate the situation. But now out of the moment, like, let’s get curious, what was he actually needing? He’s starting to trust you more, and that’s why he’s been coming in and starting his day. His day typically starts off pretty dysregulated, so he’s been looking to start his day a little less dis dysregulated by going, going in and being next to her body.

[00:15:22] Avery Rubenstein: That’s

[00:15:23] Randi Rubenstein: You know, I know I said, so he’s trying to extend an olive branch, like he’s ready to start repairing, but he doesn’t know what he doesn’t know. And then he goes back to the patterns that he’s used to, which is the fighting patterns, the power struggling, like that’s how he manages the hormones in his body. 

You know, if he wakes up with heightened cortisol and he’s used to fighting with people. Well, he gets a little adrenaline rush, and when he gets a adrenaline rush, it lowers his cortisol, his stress hormones. So that’s the pattern he’s used to. He’s trying to bring in a new pattern, which involves human connection. He doesn’t even know that, but it means he’s trusting you more because you haven’t been taking the bait and you haven’t been escalating the situation. 

So now it’s like, what, what, how would the morning have gone differently? Probably still wouldn’t have been perfect, but if when he came into the, or after she came outta the bathroom, he would’ve said, where were you? Because he had calmed himself down. He came in initially, he looked for her, and then he was like, I hate you. And he left when she wasn’t in the bed. But he had gone wherever he went and calmed his body down. So then when he is asking her a question, where were you? That was his olive branch. 

And what if she would’ve said, you were looking for me. Gimme that face. I didn’t get to have, wait, shoulder. Shoulder too. I can’t touch you. No. Too soon. Too soon for a hug. Okay. Just shoulder to shoulder. Let’s do our morning, our morning body next to body. I missed my, my, my body next to body time.

[00:16:54] Avery Rubenstein: Mm.

[00:16:55] Randi Rubenstein: I said like, what if you would’ve acknowledged that? She’s like, it’s not even on my radar. I was like, of course it’s not on your radar because you didn’t have this yourself. Like

[00:17:04] Avery Rubenstein: You don’t know what you don’t know.

[00:17:06] Randi Rubenstein: But he is trusting you more and so it’s now like when he comes in in the morning, like, what if he lets you hold his hand?

[00:17:15] Avery Rubenstein: Mm-hmm.

[00:17:15] Randi Rubenstein: If he lets you, you know, massage his scalp a little bit? He might wince and pull away and, or maybe you could say fingernails or fingertips, or maybe you could play spiders crawling up his back. You know, like some, like let’s move into more touch and more touch, because really when she came, she was like, what should the consequence be? Does he lose his technology because he had a horrible morning, or like, I just, she gets real confused about the follow through.

I said, why are we focusing on consequences? You already know the answer to this question. He was looking for connection. He didn’t get it. And he was mad about it and he went back to his old patterns. Are we gonna focus on the consequences here? Are we gonna focus on the connection part? Are we gonna focus on having a conversation? Like, the apology might go like this. 

I think when we had a bad morning this morning, it might have been you were looking for me. And because you didn’t get your normal time, you know, next, which I happened to really look forward to too, in bed, you were kind of mad. And then when you came and you told, asked me where I was like, and then I just told you, Hey, go get your teeth brushed. Go do this, go do that. And I didn’t just like, maybe give you a hug or, or let you know that I liked that morning time too and I was missing it too. I think maybe like it just sent our whole morning into a spiral because maybe you were mad and you didn’t really know how to tell me. It was, am I getting this right?

[00:18:56] Avery Rubenstein: Mm-hmm.

[00:18:58] Randi Rubenstein: That’s owning it, that’s cleaning up your side of the street. That’s I took the time to reflect and now I’m gonna come back. I’m not gonna justify, well, you know, I really needed to get ready for work. I can’t lay in bed all morning waiting for you. That’s just not gonna work. Like there, that’s not an apology. It’s just seeing the other person’s perspective, you know? Now what’s gonna happen from that?

[00:19:26] Avery Rubenstein: Mm-hmm. 

[00:19:27] Randi Rubenstein: And so I, I thought it was interesting that like she knew, she knew the reason they had a bad morning. But she wanted to talk herself out of the knowing and just focus on, well, what would the consequence be? Should I let him have his technology later or not?

[00:19:43] Avery Rubenstein: Right, which adds to the fight.

[00:19:46] Randi Rubenstein: Yeah. so I really wanted you to listen to that Mel Robbins podcast ’cause there was a part in it that kind of rubbed me the wrong way. Um, and I wanted to see what you thought about it.

[00:19:59] Avery Rubenstein: Yeah. The apology.

[00:20:00] Randi Rubenstein: Mm-hmm.

[00:20:02] Avery Rubenstein: Yeah, basically Mel and her daughter, I think had a tumultuous relationship for most of the daughter’s life. And then this let them book that they co-wrote, brought them together ’cause they both learned how to do it. 

And her daughter I think her name is Sawyer, says, you were absent like you weren’t home. I was constantly trying to get your attention and shut down because, you know, that was the only way to get your attention, was to be mad at you. And you paid more attention to my sister who had this big, you know, beautiful voice and was a performer like you. And I just couldn’t do anything to get your attention.

And I think Mel was just like, I’m sorry. And she started using the excuse of like, they were in debt and she needed to work a lot. That really rubs me the wrong way.

[00:20:56] Randi Rubenstein: That’s what rubbed me the wrong way too.

[00:20:58] Avery Rubenstein: Was when she was like, well, you know, we were in debt and I was just so focused on this and I didn’t, you know, pay attention to you. And I’m sorry, like she followed it up with an apology.

But it’s like you never use an excuse in an apology, even if that excuse is an explanation. It really, I was like, damn, I feel bad for that daughter. ‘Cause even though they seem to have this whole, like healed relationship and we’re so close in doing their podcast together, I still sense tension between them.

[00:21:29] Randi Rubenstein: Yeah, I sensed something that felt inauthentic to me.

[00:21:32] Avery Rubenstein: Yeah, I agree. Like there, like it felt, I wouldn’t say forced, but there just wasn’t a familiarity between like they hadn’t been close for 25 years of her life and it was really obvious.

[00:21:45] Randi Rubenstein: Mm-hmm. It was obvious and, um, I, I think Mel’s husband. He’s gotta be a great guy because I think he was, yeah, I think he might, because I actually really liked the daughter.

[00:21:59] Avery Rubenstein: Mm-hmm. I did too.

[00:22:00] Randi Rubenstein: Yeah. I thought she seemed like totally normal and smart and

[00:22:04] Avery Rubenstein: seems smart, normal, and I liked that she called out her mom.

[00:22:07] Randi Rubenstein: Yeah. And you know, I will say that like the fact that they have a real enough relationship that she could call out her mom, you know, she was like, you were on the road for 200 and something days a year,

[00:22:20] Avery Rubenstein: Mm-hmm.

[00:22:21] Randi Rubenstein: You know, you were on the road, you were traveling all the time, and when you came home you were either talking about work or you were focused on my sister, on my shiny sister. And I just kind of felt invisible.

[00:22:32] Avery Rubenstein: Mm-hmm.

[00:22:32] Randi Rubenstein: And um, and so Mel did the apology, the repair, which, you know, I’m sure she learned from a particular parenting expert that likes to give the Cliff Notes without making it meatier, you know, like, it’s like that old little, Little Critters book sometimes saying sorry, is just not good enough, right? Like, cleaning up your side of the street and owning your role is like, I wanna be in your experience. I wanna understand what it must have felt like. And I contributed to that.

[00:23:06] Avery Rubenstein: I think that’s what my problem was, is ’cause it didn’t actually feel like Mel was stepping into her daughter’s shoes at all. Like, I don’t think she ever fully understand, understood what her daughter was going through.

[00:23:17] Randi Rubenstein: Yeah, she was like, it was like she was saying, you know, somebody told me, you just say, wow, I, I really apologize for that. And I wanted to say, and. Like and what? Apologize for what exactly? And she’s like, but you know, we were in, we were in $800,000 of debt. 

Now I heard a rumor that Mel, I mean Mel was a professional speaker and she was on the circuit, and I have no doubt she was traveling 200 and something days a year. I think for a lot of those talks, she was making upwards of like a hundred thousand dollars per talk. Um, like she’s a professional speaker, you know, so I’m like,

[00:23:58] Avery Rubenstein: It explains the first, maybe the first few years of her business.

[00:24:02] Randi Rubenstein: And also like, I was just like, okay. And I do think that the whole, like, I’ve been in debt too before, like there’s also a little bit of a, something about that is like, I’m one of the people.

Like, I’m not so privileged. Like I’ve worked for everything I have. I was in debt too. Like this is my hell and back story. And I’m like, yeah. You know, and, and they were also owning all that. Like she was like, yeah, and my mom’s a was a workaholic and she still is. But it was like sort of a badge of honor like my mom. And now that I’ve worked with my mom writing this book and I see her organization, I understand how important she is. I understand how much

[00:24:44] Avery Rubenstein: Right. It felt a little scripted in, in like the wrong values. I also, you know what else made me sad for the daughter was when Mel gave her the project of do this research for me about let them, and the daughter came back with her color coordinated notes and whatever, and Mel was like, I finally realized where my daughter’s area of genius was, which you don’t recognize when they’re kids.

I’m like, that’s not fucking true. Like you just didn’t pay attention. And I could see the daughter got kind of quiet. ’cause you know, she’s always been that way.

[00:25:20] Randi Rubenstein: Mm-hmm.

[00:25:21] Avery Rubenstein: And I was like, oh, that poor girl is still misunderstood by her mom and her mom’s still making excuses of, well those traits don’t, you know, show when your kid is little and they only show when they’re older and they’re running a business and she’s a business-minded person. I’m like, maybe it exhibits differently, but it’s the same. Like that’s not true. Yeah. It made me really sad. I was like, damn,

[00:25:43] Randi Rubenstein: It made me, it, it made me kind of sad too, and I was like, yeah, no, like I should have been there more or, and when I was traveling, why wasn’t I FaceTiming and hearing all about your day and when I got home, why was I talking about my work? Your kid, you wanted to talk, you wanted me to be interested in you, you wanted me to act like whatever happened and seventh grade, middle school was the most riveting piece of information I’ve ever heard in my life. You didn’t want my stuff to be more important than you. You just wanted your mom there, and I didn’t get it. 

Like, and maybe that’s just not where Mel is yet or where she’ll ever be, and it’s unrealistic, but I just, yeah. There was something about that whole thing that I was just like.

[00:26:34] Avery Rubenstein: Yeah, I wish during that, especially that conversation where it was like, I just didn’t, I didn’t know this was your area of genius. I wish she would’ve been like, and if I had paid attention, I would’ve known, like, just say that. I don’t know. It really rubbed me the wrong way.

[00:26:51] Randi Rubenstein: mm-hmm. How did I not know?

[00:26:54] Avery Rubenstein: How did I not, yeah, just like own your part.

[00:26:57] Randi Rubenstein: Yeah. And so, and, and you know, so what rubbed me also the wrong way was the whole like, wow, I’m really sorry. And it felt like I was like, she was just going through the motions and saying the words. 

And I’m like, an apology doesn’t even have to include the words. I’m sorry. Like, I apologize. I’m really sorry. It’s like, that’s not an apology. It could be part of an apology, but like get into the other person’s perspective. Understand that if this person, you know, if your daughter has shut you, shut down, shut you out, and it seems like you have to buy her love,

[00:27:35] Avery Rubenstein: Uh huh.

[00:27:36] Randi Rubenstein: right? Like, 

[00:27:37] Avery Rubenstein: Like the, I’m sorry, is the signature at the end of the email? It’s not the meat of it.

[00:27:43] Randi Rubenstein: Yeah, it’s

[00:27:44] Avery Rubenstein: Yeah, she just, she didn’t, I don’t feel like she even though they were having a whole talk about empathy, without saying the word empathy, I don’t think she applied empathy to her apology at all.

[00:27:56] Randi Rubenstein: I didn’t either. I didn’t either. I felt like it was a justification. Well, we had to get our, we had to dig our way outta that $800,000 in debt. I’m like. You might have dug your way out after like eight talks, but

[00:28:09] Avery Rubenstein: which, yeah. A lot of, a lot of people make that mistake of, I mean, obviously you’re gonna get defensive if you really felt like you were in the right when you wrong someone. I think what really bothered me is I was like, you have a podcast with millions of monthly listeners and you’re still spreading the wrong information. Like you can make that mistake, just make it in private, you know, and then fix it.

[00:28:38] Randi Rubenstein: That’s so interesting. You got a little protective.

[00:28:41] Avery Rubenstein: I got, yeah. I just, I felt like you’re teaching people to apologize wrong.

[00:28:45] Randi Rubenstein: Yeah. Like you’ve got a big platform. I get that way too. You know when people are vulnerable and they’re really searching for skills that they don’t have, and then somebody who’s got a big platform, there’s a big responsibility. And when they disseminate wrong information, um, it makes me protective over all the people. It’s probably the codependent side of us. Like I feel responsible for all the listeners out there where I’m like, no, that’s wrong. Don’t listen to that.

[00:29:14] Avery Rubenstein: Right. Well that’s also, yeah, I mean that’s also was your whole reason for having the business is was literally just the spread of knowledge.

[00:29:22] Randi Rubenstein: Yeah.

[00:29:22] Avery Rubenstein: So I think yeah, when you see people spreading the wrong knowledge and knowledge that we don’t agree with, ’cause you don’t know what’s right or wrong, I think it’s probably hits you in a

[00:29:32] Randi Rubenstein: Or the wrong and or, or when I can tell I I, intention is huge to me too. So when like that whole like, well I had to dig ourselves outta debt when I can tell that like, I feel

[00:29:45] Avery Rubenstein: Proving energy.

[00:29:46] Randi Rubenstein: yeah, like when the intention doesn’t feel pure, like, oh, I’m gonna use this, continue to use this story about the debt as much as possible, ’cause it makes me like a woman of the people. and

[00:29:59] Avery Rubenstein: I kind of got that feeling too.

[00:30:01] Randi Rubenstein: Yeah. Like you’re, you know, I love that about Oprah because Oprah owns, like, she is, she’s a very privileged lady and she, rarely, rarely ever justifies, like, you know, or try, you know, her privilege with, yeah, I was born like, basically as like, you know, like inches away from being a slave in Mississippi. Um, she doesn’t tell, I mean, it took years for Oprah’s full story to come out. Like whenever anyone

[00:30:33] Avery Rubenstein: She wasn’t waiting with it.

[00:30:34] Randi Rubenstein: I’ll tell you, I think that’s why so many people in your generation have like, have canceled her because she doesn’t play that woke game. She doesn’t like try to like, you know, make herself, you know, less privileged than she’s worked her ass off and she’s a huge success and she’s 70 years old and she’s not playing.

Like I remember hearing, um, an interview with her and Trevor Noah. It was so good. It was like Trevor Noah was like, so Oprah. Like, are you ever like a regular person? Like, like when you go into the bathroom, do you ever, is there ever like a time where you’re like, already, like on the toilet and like there’s no toilet paper. Like do you ever have those moments of like, you’re open, like your, your pants are down at your ankles and you’re having to waddle and look for toilet paper. 

And, she was like, Trevor, when I go into the bathroom, not only is there always toilet paper, it’s folded down into like a diamond. Yes. She’s like, like, like, you would experience in a hotel. Like the minute anyone leaves the bathroom, someone scurries in there to make sure that the toilet paper is folded like that. So, no, I never experience an e empty toilet paper roll. Like she’s not, she’s like,

[00:31:59] Avery Rubenstein: She’s not putting on a front.

[00:32:00] Randi Rubenstein: No, she’s like, I’m Oprah. Like I don’t have to pretend that I don’t live the life that like. It’s just so honest and authentic and it’s like we all know Oprah’s Oprah. And so when somebody who is very successful and it’s obvious that they’re very successful, they keep having to talk about when they weren’t very successful and their con, it feels contrived to me.

[00:32:25] Avery Rubenstein: I agree.

[00:32:26] Randi Rubenstein: Mm-hmm.

[00:32:27] Avery Rubenstein: Yeah, it bothers me. I don’t even, still to this day, I don’t know why people canceled Oprah. I never understood.

[00:32:34] Randi Rubenstein: I am telling you, I think it’s because she didn’t play down her privilege. She was like, yeah, I live a beautiful, privileged life.

[00:32:45] Avery Rubenstein: Which you’d think my generation would like,

[00:32:49] Randi Rubenstein: Yeah.

[00:32:50] Avery Rubenstein: I mean, it’s such a tossup nowadays. What gets canceled and what doesn’t, so

[00:32:54] Randi Rubenstein: I don’t know. I don’t know. Anyway. Um, okay, so yeah, so hopefully, I don’t know. So hopefully we’re leaving people with a little more understanding about what apologizing and having a productive conversation, which step one of a productive conversation is own your role. So you might actually apologize, but just saying, I apologize, or I’m sorry, or, that must have been really hard for you. It’s just not enough. 

[00:33:22] Avery Rubenstein: Maybe we should end it with a little role play of what it would’ve been, of what it would’ve been like.

Okay.

[00:33:29] Randi Rubenstein: Okay. Who do you wanna be? Do you wanna be Mel or do you wanna be the daughter?

[00:33:33] Avery Rubenstein: I should probably be the daughter.

[00:33:35] Randi Rubenstein: Okay, I’ll be Mel. Is there anything that you want to tell me? I really wanna know the truth or you wanna get off your chest that, you know was how you felt about me before and you know, how you’re feeling now? Like, I, I’m curious what, what you could kind of tell me that maybe even like things I did wrong. I’m here to hear it.

[00:33:57] Avery Rubenstein: Well, when I was a kid. Up until I was about 25, you were on the road over 200 days a year. You only talked about work when you were home. You only pay attention to my shiny sister because she’s living a similar life to you, and it just felt like my accomplishments were never part of the conversation, and you did not pay attention to me, and you bribed me for my attention, and it made me feel really shitty.

[00:34:30] Randi Rubenstein: How could I have not seen that? Like, number one. Thank you for telling me. ’cause you’ve been holding that inside for a really long time. And thank you for trusting me now to tell me the truth. And it’s so clear like, I’m on the road, you guys are kids. I’m your mom. Your mom’s away 200 and something.

No matter how great your dad is, your mom’s on the road. So number one, like I’m working all the time and like every single day I, I was thinking about y’all, but like, why wasn’t I calling and wanting to hear more about your day? Why wasn’t I when the minute I got home, like I’ve just been working, why would I be talking about my work? Why wouldn’t I be finding out about the gossip of seventh grade? Or, you know, the boy that you had a crush on, or the teacher that was acting like an asshole. Like that’s what I should have been interested in. And that, you didn’t get that. And you probably have friends who got that.

And, um, I’m really sorry. I’m really sorry that I didn’t know then what I’m starting to learn to know now. And, um, I just really appreciate you trusting me and telling me that.

[00:35:52] Avery Rubenstein: Thank you for your apology. I appreciate you understanding where I was coming from.

[00:35:58] Randi Rubenstein: No. You know what? If the kid who’s had a mother like this would do, now you would say, it wasn’t that bad. You know, Dad filled in. I mean, Dad was great. So it wasn’t like I didn’t have anyone. Dad wanted to hear about that stuff.

[00:36:12] Avery Rubenstein: Mm-hmm.

[00:36:12] Randi Rubenstein: she would

[00:36:13] Avery Rubenstein: both roles now.

[00:36:14] Randi Rubenstein: No, but now you say something ’cause what the kid, the kid would now like probably feel uncomfortable that the mom like.

[00:36:23] Avery Rubenstein: I know that we had debt and that you were paying it off and dad was really present, parent, and like it wasn’t all bad. It wasn’t like I didn’t have any parents and you were still in my life and it wasn’t the worst relationship, you know, it just wasn’t exactly what it could have been. So it’s okay.

[00:36:41] Randi Rubenstein: I don’t need you to tell me it’s okay. And look, obviously you’re you and thank God for dad. And um, and thank God you had other people around because I. You’re pretty awesome. Um, but I was gone a lot and I’m the mom. I don’t need you to try and make me feel better about it. I can see it. I can see it clearly.

And, I wish I had made different choices and I can justify it, right? Left and center. Oh, we, I was digging us outta debt. Oh, blah, blah, blah. The truth of the matter is, is I’ve been a workaholic for a long time. I love my work and it’s also my drug. And, um, it’s a little bit of an over behavior and kids deserve to feel like they are the main priority in their parents’ life. They deserve it. And I didn’t make that you feel that way. And so I gotta own that. And you don’t have to make me feel better about it. 

But what I can say for sure is you will do it better than I did. Like every generation is meant to do it a little better. And now that we both see it, so clearly you’re not gonna repeat this pattern. I have no doubt.

[00:37:59] Avery Rubenstein: Yeah, that’s true. Thank you for, am I allowed to end now? Thank you for saying that

[00:38:06] Randi Rubenstein: I mean, isn’t that 

[00:38:07] Avery Rubenstein: And, scene. 

[00:38:09] Randi Rubenstein: And scene, but don’t you think that’s probably like

[00:38:12] Avery Rubenstein: How it should have gone.

[00:38:14] Randi Rubenstein: Or even like how it would typically go, even if you owned it, if you’ve kind of been the parentified child or the neglected child.

[00:38:22] Avery Rubenstein: I mean, Baxter, sorry.

[00:38:28] Randi Rubenstein: This is a riveting conversation. I’m sure our listeners are like, if she’s yawning, this is fucking boring. 

[00:38:36] Avery Rubenstein: Um, Baxter does that. You know, um, I’ll do that sometimes. Just kind of like, as soon as someone does a, an apology to him, he is like, well, it’s like, really okay. Like, you know, he starts trying to own his piece in it and I’m like, you don’t need to do that. Like, it’s, that’s not where this point of this conversation is. I’ve noticed I’ll do that sometimes.

[00:39:00] Randi Rubenstein: Mm-hmm.

[00:39:02] Avery Rubenstein: Um, yeah, that’s a good point.

[00:39:05] Randi Rubenstein: Yeah, I think it’s like, you are gonna, the kid’s gonna want to naturally try and make the parent not feel bad or alleviate their guilt in some way. And I think it’s up to the parent to be like, no, no, no, no, no. I got this.

[00:39:19] Avery Rubenstein: Right. I got, I got 25 years on you. You

[00:39:22] Randi Rubenstein: Yeah, you don’t, I don’t need you to take care of me. Like I got this and we’re just having an honest conversation. I’m a big girl. I can own my, I can own this. I fucked up. And thank you for telling me. And you’re gonna do this better than I did and I’m glad to know it now.

[00:39:39] Avery Rubenstein: Right.

[00:39:40] Randi Rubenstein: Yeah. Okay. We’re boring Avery to tears, so I’m

[00:39:43] Avery Rubenstein: No, I just woke up early. 

[00:39:45] Randi Rubenstein: okay everyone, thanks for listening. Bye for now. 

Thanks for listening today, guys. I hope you picked up some tips, tools, maybe some baby steps for creating more balance and boundaries in your life. And I just wanted to let you know, if you want to continue moving the needle forward in creating this for yourself, having a happier household, I want you to go to my website and check out mastermindparenting.com. We have three beginning programs, and if you need some accountability and more support then please look for the one that would be a good fit for you.

And, as always, we’re on all the social channels under Mastermind Parenting, on Instagram it’s mastermind_parenting. And, you know, periodically I do pop up on different Instagram lives, Facebook lives where I give you teaching and coaching and I love engaging with you live to help you help your strong-willed kids so that they can feel better, because when they feel better they do better, and I love, love, love getting to know you guys. 

So thanks for listening. If you like this podcast, please don’t forget to subscribe, rate and review. Super, super appreciative.