318: What Even Is Pack Leadership? (with Dr. Shawn Hondorp)

[00:00:00] Randi Rubenstein: My name is Randi Rubenstein, and welcome to the Mastermind Parenting Podcast. At Mastermind Parenting, we’re on a mission to support strong-willed kids and the families that love them. 

Hello. Hello. Welcome to this week. I have a great conversation I wanna share with y’all with Dr. Sean Hondorp. I was actually on her podcast recently. She goes by the Innovative Therapist. She’s a psychologist. She’s also one of my Mastermind clients. We have lots of different sort of roles with each other. I attended one of her retreats where she was the facilitator. She attends my groups where I’m the facilitator. Sometimes we co-facilitate groups and book clubs and we just love each other. 

And she really wanted to break down everything about Pack Leadership. So we just had an organic conversation with both of our crazy brains sort of unpacking, telling stories, talking about what the heck Pack Leadership even is. I’m like, this is a term that I came up with and I have a hard time describing it, so maybe you can help. So we just had a conversation about all things Pack Leadership and I thought I’m gonna share this conversation for my listeners, so enjoy.

[00:01:18] Shawn Hondorp: All right, so welcome back to the Innovative Therapist Podcast. I am sitting down and doing my excited hands for this conversation because I’m sitting down with the one and only Randi Rubenstein, my parent coach, who I talk about all the time, who you’ve been on the podcast two times. This is your third time back.

But today we’re going to talk about all the things, but we’re gonna really focus on a concept that has really changed my life and a concept that has, I think it’s really a revolutionary way to think about how we can trust ourselves as parents. And, uh, so this is Randi’s term that she uses called Pack Leadership.

And I just wanna tell a super quick story, which is, for whatever reason, when I first hear terms, sometimes I don’t like them. Like, like I still have an issue with like the term abundance mindset. I think it’s probably ’cause I need to work on them. Uh, but for whatever reason, I remember when you first said Pack Leadership, I was like, that’s kind of weird.

But anyway, three years later, um, a super huge fan of this concept and I’m really excited to talk about how it’s changed my life and really break it down with you. What is it? Why do so many parents, especially women, lack it and, um, how people can use it to really feel empowered with their families, but also in other areas of their life.

So welcome back to the podcast, Randi. 

[00:02:56] Randi Rubenstein: Yay. Happy to be here. Anytime I get with you is, and, and for all the listeners, I was on Shawn’s retreat. Yeah. So yeah, 

[00:03:07] Shawn Hondorp: we’ve met, 

[00:03:07] Randi Rubenstein: I live in Texas 

[00:03:08] Shawn Hondorp: in real life now. 

[00:03:09] Randi Rubenstein: Mm-hmm. Yeah. We met in real life. Um, we spent all the good time together and yeah, so this is exciting and fun. And frankly, I’m sitting down with you talking about this a little bit with some selfish interests. Because I teach, I teach Pack Leadership, I have helped many women to become pack leaders, the pack leaders of their families. And most people love this concept and breaking it down and explaining exactly what it is, and, you know, I can explain what it looks like, but to like break it down conceptually, it’s almost like this needs to be a book.

[00:03:54] Shawn Hondorp: Mm-hmm. 

[00:03:54] Randi Rubenstein: And I haven’t written it. And so I think this conversation will be good because I need to unpack Pack Leadership a little bit more. 

[00:04:05] Shawn Hondorp: Yeah. I’m super excited. And yeah, I think, oh, I know we were gonna make this conversational and I, I took Will to swim lessons this morning and I figured I would just start a little bit with my experience with being a stronger pack leader and how powerful it is, and then maybe we’ll circle back and break down the concept. 

[00:04:29] Randi Rubenstein: Love it. 

[00:04:30] Shawn Hondorp: So when I joined Mastermind, we were in swim lessons and it was a nightmare. I hated it. Will definitely hated it. The whole family hated it because Will my, for the listeners, my younger son, the reason I joined Mastermind, uh, it was, it was at Goldfish for anyone who, who’s local and it’s really loud in there and it’s just a lot. And so I was super anxious. Will was super anxious. It was just a mess. And it never got better. We went for like over a year and I, and I finally stopped going because I was like, we just need a break. And we took a long break. I don’t remember how long. 

[00:05:12] Randi Rubenstein: Wait, lemme pause you. 

[00:05:13] Shawn Hondorp: Yeah. 

[00:05:14] Randi Rubenstein: Like, number one, as a person who has quit many things in my life, like I just have to say like, you going for a year? And continuing to go is probably also how you stayed in school for a million years and became a psychologist. 

[00:05:31] Shawn Hondorp: Yeah. You just push through, even though it sucks. 

[00:05:33] Randi Rubenstein: Like your follow through to me, I’m like, like, there’s no quit in you. And I remember like, you weren’t going to quit if I’m, if I’m remembering this correctly. It was just like, this thing sucks. How can I make it better? And then we, you know, after some coaching and I mean there was a lot of swim lesson drama and finally it was like, maybe it’s just take a break from swim lessons. Like you can do that, you know? 

[00:05:58] Shawn Hondorp: Yeah, yeah. Right. There can be a lot of like freedom in that. Yeah. I was, I looked into so many different options and I couldn’t find one that fit with our schedule. So, ’cause I was like, well we can’t quit, we gotta just switch to a different, better lesson. And that wasn’t working, so we had. We didn’t have to quit, but it was the right choice because it was making everyone miserable.

[00:06:23] Randi Rubenstein: And it was, and now you realize it wasn’t actually a quit, it was just a pause. 

[00:06:27] Shawn Hondorp: Yep. It was a pause. He, we have a community pool. I mean, we went through the whole summer without him knowing how to swim this past summer at least. Yeah. And he wore his life jacket in the pool. He just swim. He loves it.

And I said, bud, next year you’ll probably not need this. He goes, I’m gonna wear this life jacket the rest of my life. He’s like, I’m uninterested. And he’s like, don’t. I sense your agenda. I’m like, whatever. 

So, but yeah. I told him we joined the Y and it was, it fit with our schedule really well. And, uh, so he’s back in lessons. It’s week two. It’s basically like he, all of that time was essentially wasted because he’s in like a very low level. But he had fun and I was so much more calm. I, I was noticing today, this morning, I was probably like eight outta 10 on Pack Leadership. Like not perfect. ’cause I was like, I noticed already in lesson two, I’m like, like after the lesson we play in the pool and I was like, okay, practice what you learn. It’s like, he’s like, I just wanna play get off me. 

And I was noticing myself getting annoyed and we’ll break this down for the listeners, but the annoyance and the sort of pressuring in the agenda, that’s what pulls us out of calm, grounded Pack Leadership. Like he just wanted to play at that point. He had already made it through his lesson.

But the first lesson I was really proud of myself because he was really nervous and, uh, I told him a couple days in advance, I was like, this is where it’s gonna be. This is what’s gonna happen. And I was just a lot calmer and he was really calm. 

And uh, you know, there was one of the kids at the swim lesson that was not calm and I was just like, I had a lot of empathy for that mom. But you could also see how she was trying to do the sort of like, come on sweetie. Gentle parenting. Gentle parenting, until she just lost it at the end and they left. Um, and I was like, that could have easily been, I just could relate to it, you know? 

But, um, but will he rocked both of his lessons? He’s done great. I mean, he’s been a little nervous, but he voices it like, I’m nervous, I’m a nervous, I’m gonna sink, is what he says. but so far, so good. And again, I’m so much more regulated and that’s this like pack leader energy that we’re gonna be breaking down. 

[00:08:52] Randi Rubenstein: But think about like the way it was in the past that made it such a nightmare. Even before you left for it or to, or, I would love for you to break down like what it looked like when it was a nightmare. 

[00:09:06] Shawn Hondorp: Oh yeah. Oh, it’s so fun to go back. No, it’s funny now. ’cause we’re out of it. Um, I mean, he was hitting us, like I was pressuring, like, let’s go, let’s go. Come on. And, and I was annoyed with Garrett for leaving late ’cause all four of us were going, ’cause Claire had a lesson at the same time. And he was smacking us, like throwing complete fits in the car saying, I’m not going. I I hate you. He’s running away, uh, like running into the woods. 

Um, and yeah, we’d get there. He would just be bawling his eyes out crying and I was just tense the entire time. Um, 

[00:09:48] Randi Rubenstein: Mm-hmm. 

[00:09:49] Shawn Hondorp: It was not fun. 

[00:09:51] Randi Rubenstein: And what were you thinking? Do you remember what you were thinking about? Like why he was, behaving like that? Like what were you thinking about it?

[00:09:57] Shawn Hondorp: Oh gosh. Yeah. I should go back to my Voxer threads. I think just anxious that he couldn’t handle it. I do remember at times being very worried about how we looked, you know, looking, like all these parents can be watching you and watching your kid. Um, I don’t know what I was thinking. Probably just like, he’s not gonna be able to do this, or he can’t handle this, probably

[00:10:22] Randi Rubenstein: Mm-hmm. 

[00:10:22] Shawn Hondorp: was at the root of a lot of it. Just not, not really believing in his ability to handle it. 

[00:10:30] Randi Rubenstein: Yeah. you, so you’re thinking like he’s, he, he can’t handle this. 

[00:10:34] Shawn Hondorp: Yeah. 

[00:10:34] Randi Rubenstein: And like, you know, you’re responsible, uh, at times type A-ish, and you’re like. I mean, you have to teach your kid how to swim. Like that’s just a non-negotiable, right? Like 

[00:10:48] Shawn Hondorp: Right. 

[00:10:49] Randi Rubenstein: I mean it’s like eventually we know we’ve gotta teach our kids to tie their shoes. There’s just like certain things that are just like in the parenting rule book. Like you gotta teach your kids. I mean, a lot of people opt out of teaching their kids to ride a bike. And I would encourage anyone who has opted out of that not to because your kids will suffer for it. But that’s a side note. 

Um, but yeah, it’s like teach your kid, like it’s dangerous if your kid doesn’t know how to swim. Like they need to know how to swim. 

[00:11:19] Shawn Hondorp: Yeah. 

[00:11:19] Randi Rubenstein: And so it wasn’t, in your mind it was like, it’s not an option and he can’t handle this, but he has to handle it because I have to teach him how to swim. Like we have no other options. 

[00:11:30] Shawn Hondorp: Yeah. 

[00:11:30] Randi Rubenstein: And then that caused you to feel anxious. 

[00:11:33] Shawn Hondorp: Yeah. 

[00:11:33] Randi Rubenstein: And then, you know, that informed what you did. And what you did was, you know, with all that anxious energy. Not believing in him, but also like it went into control. Right. 

[00:11:47] Shawn Hondorp: Totally. 

[00:11:47] Randi Rubenstein: Like it’s not an option. So now I need to control him. So now I’m going like, we can pass power struggle all day long. But you’re freaking going to swimming lessons. Yeah. And so it’s that power over. 

[00:11:56] Shawn Hondorp: Oh yeah. Like I feel like I was trying to strap him in, you know, like Yeah. Trying to, and I definitely had what I now name as a part, like my high independence part. It’s just like, figure it out, suck it up. I did. Like figure your emotional shit out. Right. And that would show up too, the annoyance or just like, this is so inconvenient for me. 

[00:12:20] Randi Rubenstein: Yeah. 

[00:12:20] Shawn Hondorp: Right. 

[00:12:20] Randi Rubenstein: Yeah. Like so human. Right. Of course your parts are coming up. 

[00:12:24] Shawn Hondorp: Yep. 

[00:12:24] Randi Rubenstein: Because it’s like there’s no other option. The kid’s gonna need to learn how to swim and he’s getting there.

[00:12:30] Shawn Hondorp: Mm-hmm. 

[00:12:31] Randi Rubenstein: And he can’t handle it, but he’s gonna have to figure out how to handle it and we’re doing this. So then you go into that power over energy and, you know, Will also happens to be a highly sensitive little human and they feel everything. And he’s, and that’s why he would smack and, and he was like an animal in survival, right?

[00:12:55] Shawn Hondorp: Yeah. 

[00:12:55] Randi Rubenstein: And he can’t be reasoned with, and so he went into fight. And it’s just, you know, a shit storm week after week after week. So much stress. I mean, and wasn’t it on Saturday mornings? 

[00:13:09] Shawn Hondorp: Yeah, yeah. Saturday morning. 

[00:13:12] Randi Rubenstein: Like what a fantastic way to start your weekend. 

[00:13:16] Shawn Hondorp: Yeah. Oh yeah. It’d be so bad. And then he’d hit and then we’d be like, when you hit, you can’t go to the museum later. And we’d had like laid out that rule and he’d like be missing out on all of these. I mean, I didn’t do that all the time, but some, I remember being like, well, now I have to follow through. And he doesn’t get to come to the museum just because the poor kids in fight or flight because I’m not regulated. Right. And that’s only after hindsight. 

[00:13:43] Randi Rubenstein: I mean that’s, this is why I think it’s a hard, it’s hard to break down what Pack Leadership is, is because everybody wants the script. You know, like, how do I get my kid to cooperate and go to swimming lessons without it being a nightmare? 

[00:13:58] Shawn Hondorp: Right. 

[00:13:59] Randi Rubenstein: And it’s like, well, it, whatever these invisible sentences are going through your head, these thoughts like, guess what? Your kid feels what you are thinking about him, and he’s also co-regulating with you and feeling your emotion. So your anxiety is causing him to be anxious, and then that’s putting him into survival. Oh, yeah. And now, and then as we, you know, now you also know that like there was this part in you that sort of had to figure shit out as a kid and suck it up. And so there was this part that was coming out, this annoyance part that was like, like just do it. And going into control. Like it’s layered, right? 

You know, there’s more to the story than just, you know, give two positive choices or say these exact words when you do this, then you can have that, you know, whatever. 

[00:14:58] Shawn Hondorp: Right. 

[00:14:58] Randi Rubenstein: Some of those little tips and tricks are great and helpful, but if you’re not believing in someone, and if you’re coming into whatever the exchange is with that anxious energy, like the other person feels it. We’re pack animals. We co-regulate with each other and we feel everything 

[00:15:17] Shawn Hondorp: For sure. And I always say like with Will, I’m like, no, I can never, and my daughter too. Like I can’t hide from myself. Like I can’t hide. He just, like you said, he feels everything. And it’s been hard, but such a gift, ’cause it’s like I can’t ignore these parts of me that pull me out of that pack leader energy. 

And I guess I was gonna say too, on the outside, especially as like a therapist, a psychologist, like I looked, I probably didn’t look calm, but I didn’t lose my shit in public. Like I don’t usually do that. Um, at home, maybe, I might yell here and there, but, but like. I look calm ish, but my kid knows I’m not, right. And I’m not necessarily showing a lot of annoyance. I mean, maybe I did here and there, but mostly I’m just in this like, can we just come on? Come on. You know, and but so not in that pack leader stance and like, yeah, we’re gonna figure this out and this isn’t ideal, you know, but it’s fine.

It is interesting ’cause you can, he can feel it, but yeah, like as a, and I think that’s what this concept has been so powerful because you have like the authoritarian parenting that were, you know, gentle parenting, conscious discipline kind of comes to counter those, right? But then people can go, especially people like me, go too far to the extreme where we’re like, oh my gosh, I need to like, be so kind and so loving and like attentive to every single need and Pack Leadership 

[00:17:01] Randi Rubenstein: Empathize, empathize, empathize, empathize. Which I love empathy, but like when you have a kid that’s fighting like a caged animal, any words, even empathetic words is just extra input that sends them into even more of a spiral. 

[00:17:16] Shawn Hondorp: Right.

[00:17:16] Randi Rubenstein: So it’s like, no words, it’s manage your own energy. 

And I, you know, it’s like interesting to look at, I, I would love now for you to unpack swimming lessons now, because now you have gotten trained in IFS, you’re practicing it, um, and you’re, you have more access to that self energy, which is, which I think self energy and Pack Leadership energy. I’m not sure if they’re synonymous. 

[00:17:44] Shawn Hondorp: I think of them as the same. I think when you’re very in a part or part led right, when that annoyed part of me is leading or with the anxious part, what do people are gonna think are leading, um, then it pulls you out of this natural, like IFS would call, you know, the eight Cs of self energy, which I always forget all eight of them, but I think I can, I think I wrote it down, but, um, you know, courage, compassion, connection, confidence.

I think the confidence piece really touches on the pack leader energy, right? Um, calm, clarity, creativity, and curiosity. And so I think that they are very, I don’t know about you, but ’cause it’s your concept. 

[00:18:30] Randi Rubenstein: I do. 

[00:18:31] Shawn Hondorp: But um, yeah, that’s, 

[00:18:32] Randi Rubenstein: That’s all of it, right? Because, because to be in pack leader energy, as you were go moving forward and like, okay, it’s been a year and we’re gonna do swimming lessons again. Like you had to be curious, um, in terms of like, let me problem solve why it wasn’t working before. Oh, that place was really loud. Oh, yeah. I’m pretty aware now, but my kids’ highly sensitive. Also, you know, maybe it’s that he also was just younger and we were sort of in this negative spiral and now I’m different and he’s older. Right. 

And so like you could be calm in terms of maybe even understanding and having, having some compassion for who you were back then and who he was back then. Right. 

[00:19:22] Shawn Hondorp: Yeah. 

[00:19:22] Randi Rubenstein: I don’t know. You, you can speak to that, but it seems like accessing that self energy helped you to show up in that calm confidence space. When it was time to do it again. 

[00:19:35] Shawn Hondorp: Totally. Right. I definitely, I mean, I have a lot of compassion for him and myself with all, you know, I think that’s the beauty of the work I’ve done with you. But also, yeah, IFS where it’s just like, I wasn’t quite ready to calmly usher him through a scary swim lesson experience yet at that time. Okay. And we’re gonna try again. And I felt a lot more ready to do that this time. I was a little nervous, but not too much. 

[00:20:08] Randi Rubenstein: What was the sentence you were thinking? Like going to that first swim lesson, you know, you had had prepared him, you talked about it. He has been to the Y before he had gone to this. It wasn’t a brand new pool. So 

[00:20:23] Shawn Hondorp: Yeah, I made sure we went as a family to the pool. Yep. 

[00:20:25] Randi Rubenstein: Took out as much of the uncertainty as you could. Super respectful. And 

[00:20:29] Shawn Hondorp: Yeah, 

[00:20:30] Randi Rubenstein: it’s interesting. I was just listening to a story about, um, Michael Phelps speaking of swimming.

[00:20:37] Shawn Hondorp: Yeah. 

[00:20:37] Randi Rubenstein: And it was talking about how, you know, like what the protocol and the routine was. Um, for every race that he did, he did the exact same thing no matter where he was because, and they learned this, by all of a sudden he would show up for a race in another country, in Japan or wherever. And the conditions were different in the pool. Right. And, um, and so they found that like, if they could take as much of the uncertainty out, that was helpful. 

So he has the, he had a very, very rigid plan for before the race, and they always got to the pool, whether he was, I think in a race at home or elsewhere, two hours before. So like, you know, the two hours before he would, he would be in the water, he would be getting to know the pool, he would be, and then the hour before it was like down to like, he would sit on a certain side of whatever and then he would put something down next to him so no one could come and sit next to him. And he would listen to the exact same playlist. Like they took as much of the uncertainty out so that he knew he could show up consistently race after race, which I thought was an interesting. 

[00:21:53] Shawn Hondorp: Yeah. Right. It’s like rituals are calming to our nervous system of just like, oh yeah. 

[00:22:00] Randi Rubenstein: And no surprises, right? Like, it’s no surprises. Like it’s like, you know, if we can, I mean, it’s sort of the rub of being a human. Uncertainty is our kryptonite, right? 

[00:22:11] Shawn Hondorp: Mm-hmm. 

[00:22:12] Randi Rubenstein: We wanna know, but what, you know, what’s gonna happen? What’s gonna happen? And in life, like, like things are always changing. And when things are always changing, things are pretty uncertain.

[00:22:23] Shawn Hondorp: Yeah. 

[00:22:24] Randi Rubenstein: You know, lots of things are pretty uncertain and so, and so understanding that like, for our kids, when they’re going into a new experience, anything that we can do to take out as much of the uncertainty as we can, even in terms of just like preparing them, for, you know, what’s coming.

I mean, it’s also like why kids do so much better when like, they wake up in the morning on an open-ended day and we’re like, Hey, this is what we got on the planner for today. Right. So that they’re not just like going moment to moment and then fighting with you because they’re happy in this moment and they don’t wanna go to the next moment. Like, you’ve already actually prepared them. They still may have a hard time with transitions, but at least it’s not brand new information. 

[00:23:06] Shawn Hondorp: Right. Oh yeah. And that’s exactly, that’s also very pertinent to my Fridays home with Will that I used to just basically wing it, like, well come, why can’t you get with the program? This is, you know, and it was different all the time. 

And now I am a lot more likely to, I mean, I did it this morning. I was like, we’re gonna get up, we’re gonna do this, we’re gonna do swim, we’re gonna eat lunch, then you’re gonna go with dad. And that’s where he is now. But I think that it’s a lot more natural for me now too. And I don’t know if it’s just ’cause I’ve seen it work, but I think it is more compassionate versus like what I was doing before really came from a place of like, I don’t feel like planning. 

[00:23:52] Randi Rubenstein: Yeah. 

[00:23:53] Shawn Hondorp: I’m tired. Mom’s tired. 

[00:23:55] Randi Rubenstein: Planning’s kind of a pain in the ass. 

[00:23:57] Shawn Hondorp: Yeah. But I think you helped me see too, ’cause when I hear planning I’m like, oh, I have to do all this stuff and you helped me be like, your plan might just be, we’re gonna do a little of this, a little of this. Like our plan is pretty loose. Um, and so I took that pressure off too of myself. 

[00:24:15] Randi Rubenstein: Right, like our plan might be we get up, we have breakfast and you get to watch a show while I, you know, take a shower. You know, or you get to do this while I do while I exercise. Um. Then we’re gonna go out of the house and we’re gonna do something fun. We might go to the park. I don’t know, we’ll see. We’ll, we’ll talk about it then and decide which place that we wanna go to. 

Then we’re gonna come home, we’re gonna have a little lunch, um, or maybe we’re going to, you know, get a few chores done. You can help me clean my space, or if you wanna clean up your space, you can. And then we’ll have a little lunch, and then it’ll be a little, you know, siesta time, you know? 

[00:24:57] Shawn Hondorp: Yeah. 

[00:24:57] Randi Rubenstein: It’s like just putting that framework down, it doesn’t mean you have to be rigid with it, because it might be like, oh my God, it’s freezing. Oh shoot, it just started raining and we were gonna go outside. What are our thoughts? Do we wanna stay home or do we wanna find an indoor activity? You know, like you just know that like there is flexibility there and it becomes like the two of you constantly sort of collaborating. 

Even though you’re the pack leader and ultimately you’re gonna make the decision. 

[00:25:24] Shawn Hondorp: Mm-hmm. 

[00:25:25] Randi Rubenstein: Like you get to loop him in. And he gets to be part, you know, he gets to feel like he’s more invested because he’s part of the planning. 

[00:25:34] Shawn Hondorp: Totally. Yes. Although, I’m laughing because last night he, he goes, it was after bedtime and he goes, mom, why do you guys always get to boss us around all the time? And I was like, uh, good question. We’ll talk about that tomorrow. So it doesn’t always, maybe there’s still some shifting or maybe he’s like, wait, no, 

[00:25:58] Randi Rubenstein: That was total Pack Leadership because you know what, it was a great stall tactic. No kids’ consciously thinking this, but it’s like, my mom’s a psychologist, she’s very reasonable and I’m gonna make this argument. And let her know there’s something where I’m feeling bossed around, you know? 

So he like, he, like he was throwing out a fishing line to see if he could extend bedtime just a little bit more. Like, I’m not ready for this party to end. It’s kind of a fun, this is kind of a fun family to be in. And I like when my eyes are open. We threw out a fishing line and you’re like, yeah, great question. We’ll talk about it tomorrow. That was Pack Leadership. 

[00:26:36] Shawn Hondorp: Mm-hmm. It’s getting more, more natural the more work I do. So that’s good. I’m wondering, do you feel like it is, do you feel like Pack Leadership is like the middle ground between this more authoritarian parenting? 

[00:26:52] Randi Rubenstein: Yes. 

[00:26:52] Shawn Hondorp: And the more gentle, yeah. Yeah. 

[00:26:54] Randi Rubenstein: I think there are some people who not au authoritarian parenting is just like, ’cause I said the way most of us were raised, ’cause I said, so stop talking back, you know? 

[00:27:04] Shawn Hondorp: Yeah. 

[00:27:04] Randi Rubenstein: Like, just be a kid and do what you’re told. 

[00:27:07] Shawn Hondorp: Mm-hmm. 

[00:27:08] Randi Rubenstein: And if you’re not, if you don’t. Then you are gonna get punished. And maybe I’m just gonna punish you in a way that, you know, seems very reasonable. What was it? You’re, um,

[00:27:20] Shawn Hondorp: timeout. 

[00:27:22] Randi Rubenstein: Not even timeout. 

[00:27:23] Shawn Hondorp: Oh. 

[00:27:23] Randi Rubenstein: But like, when you know, when you’re a teenager and like, people couldn’t go out 

[00:27:26] Shawn Hondorp: grounded 

[00:27:27] Randi Rubenstein: because you’re grounded. Yeah. That’s what it was. 

[00:27:30] Shawn Hondorp: I was like, where are we going with this? Yes, 

[00:27:32] Randi Rubenstein: You’re grounded. Yeah. 

[00:27:33] Shawn Hondorp: Yes. 

[00:27:34] Randi Rubenstein: So you’re grounded. Um. So that it might be that, you know, it might be authoritarian parenting might be, you know, you want something to cry about and like, people who are gonna smack their kids or lash out at them in anger, which we, you know, people piss listening to this podcast might be like, oh my gosh, people still do that. Yeah. Lots of people still do it and lots of people still do it and claim they don’t do it, and they stand for something very differently and they’re still doing it. 

And that happens. I mean, that’s just dysregulated people, you know? I don’t think anyone’s like. There are some people who are proud Spankers, like, you know, but it used to be in Texas growing up like, you know, I’m gonna get the belt. You know, so it was like kids like waiting, like for, to get like smacked on the butt with a belt.

And parents really thinking that they were doing right by their kids. Like, like, this is what you’re supposed to do. This is how you raise kids that know right from wrong. 

[00:28:31] Shawn Hondorp: Yeah. 

[00:28:32] Randi Rubenstein: So, so some version of that spectrum is authoritarian. 

[00:28:37] Shawn Hondorp: Right. 

[00:28:37] Randi Rubenstein: And I have seen people on TikTok, maybe not so much in real life, um, or one of the social reels things who believe in gentle parenting and show up in Pack Leadership.

[00:28:51] Shawn Hondorp: For sure. 

[00:28:52] Randi Rubenstein: I think Gentle Parenting, I think it was developed to be aligned with what we’re doing in mastermind parenting. 

[00:28:59] Shawn Hondorp: Mm-hmm. 

[00:29:00] Randi Rubenstein: Right? 

[00:29:00] Shawn Hondorp: Mm-hmm. 

[00:29:00] Randi Rubenstein: It’s reasonable, it’s respectful, um, and. I think it’s confusing for most people because it’s, there’s no consequences. You know, it’s not like, I think that most often people think gentle parenting and they don’t think firm assertive voice.

[00:29:20] Shawn Hondorp: Right. 

[00:29:20] Randi Rubenstein: They don’t 

[00:29:20] Shawn Hondorp: I never did. Yeah. It’s sort of how gentle parenting can be interpreted, which, 

[00:29:26] Randi Rubenstein: Yes. 

[00:29:27] Shawn Hondorp: I, this is the parallel that I wanna make. I think I’ve told you my thoughts on this. It’s like diet culture and like diet mentality and fat phobia and all the stuff that we’re moving away from. And then there’s intuitive eating. But the way people interpret intuitive eating is very confusing for people, right? They’re like, what? No boundaries. Like, I’m just going to eat whatever I want. Like, that’s not gonna work. 

And, but that’s not really what intuitive eating is. And I, I believe intuitive eating is just listening, like trusting your body and trusting yourself. 

[00:30:01] Randi Rubenstein: Yeah. 

[00:30:01] Shawn Hondorp: And it might be, it could be really boundaried. That’s why I think there’s this middle ground that usually is my work, trying to help people find what that looks like. Right. But I think it’s the same thing. It’s like how, how gentle parenting can be interpreted. This is the way I need to do it. 

Where it’s like intuitive eating. Like, well wait, am I still allowed to like order my salad with dressing on the side? Yes, you are allowed to do that if that feels right to you. Do my kids still get consequences or can I still listen to what I want? 

I think for me, what gentle parenting, I didn’t necessarily go down that rabbit hole much before I found you. Maybe I did a little, but for me, with like the people pleaser parts of me, it was like I just have to put all my needs aside and focus only on my kid. And I think what I’ve learned through you is shifting from kid-centric life to family-centric life. Right. Like factoring myself in. 

Not in a, and not in a my way or the highway, we’re doing what the parents want, suck it up, way. But like my, you know, even my Fridays with Will, when I was all worried about him getting potty trained and, or like, I was, I was just impatient with, I don’t know if it was, yeah, I think it was potty training. Like he had to go before we could like do the next thing.

And you had coach me to just speak from that part of me that’s like, this is frustrating. Like, we’re wasting time, we’re just fighting about whether we’re you’re gonna go potty or not. And like, there’s all these fun things we could be doing and we’re not doing it. And this is the way it ties to IFS. I’m not speaking from a part, it’s not a triggered part of me. I’m just speaking for a part of me that’s frustrated 

But that’s the piece that I think at least I needed a lot of coaching on, right? Because, I don’t know. I think before it was like, just do whatever you can do, do be the best parent you could be that perfectionism and then it leads you to like, not at all, listen to your body and be like, it’s okay honey.

Like, just can you please like, just please go potty? 

[00:32:10] Randi Rubenstein: I think that, I think gentle parenting is probably, um, pretty confusing for anyone who identifies as a people pleaser or who has gone into that fawn response as a survival mechanism. Shawn and I recently went on, I was talking about how I really kind of hate the people pleaser label because I think it makes you feel like a doormat and a wimp. And we have to remember that that part, it came from a survival instinct, like it protected you. And so we have to have love and compassion for that part and understand it. 

And so anybody who has some of that fawn response as you know, a part of you, I think that that’s what gentle parenting, you know, it’s like, oh, well if I just learned to say it in such a gentle understanding, compassionate way. If I empathize enough and if I, if we talk about feelings all freaking day long. 

And look, I’m all for helping kids identify feelings and all that. But like when you’ve got a kid that’s looking for the fight dance, looking to power struggle you and you need to get out the door, like you’re wasting your whole day and he needs to go to the bathroom.

[00:33:29] Shawn Hondorp: Yeah. 

[00:33:29] Randi Rubenstein: Right. Like, you’re gonna be frustrated and you know, our kids, like we’re all bad actors. They have our numbers. So even if we’re using the gentle words, they feel that frustration. So it all just kind of feels like bullshit to them. 

[00:33:44] Shawn Hondorp: Right. 

[00:33:44] Randi Rubenstein: And the only time they get the authentic version of us is when that gentle parent finally blows a gasket and then freaks out.

[00:33:54] Shawn Hondorp: It’s like, just go. Yeah. 

[00:33:56] Randi Rubenstein: Yeah. And, and it’s like, and even though they might cry, but then they’re doing more and more things that, you know, supposedly push our buttons so that we go to that place to blow a gasket. But it’s like, well, at least we’re being truthful and authentic in that moment. It’s not fakey fakey 

And they’re always being authentic and truthful in a moment. 

[00:34:20] Shawn Hondorp: Mm-hmm. 

[00:34:20] Randi Rubenstein: So, you know, it’s like kids acts, this, this pattern of all that negative attention and that power struggling, like now that pattern has been born and this is how we interact. If you want me to do anything, mom, ultimately you’re gonna have to get to that place where you’re yelling at me or shaming me or you know, hurting my feelings and then I’m crying and I’m freaking out. Like, and then that dynamic is just the way it goes. And 

[00:34:48] Shawn Hondorp: Yeah. 

[00:34:48] Randi Rubenstein: It’s no way to live. Anybody who’s lived in that season, um, or has a kid that, that’s the dynamic. you know, it’s like you’re sitting there saying, you know, I suck at parenting and I thought it was gonna be different. Like, you feel like such a failure.

[00:35:07] Shawn Hondorp: Totally. And I mean, look like parenting at every stage can be really hard, but I think that, when you’re in these different parts or these different reactions, whether it’s like feeling anxious or feeling like I’m trying to do the right thing or say the right thing. I’m just trying so hard, right? And then eventually it doesn’t work. Your kid has your number and you’re just like, screw it. 

Like that’s, I mean, I’ve been in that cycle, you know, various times. And Gary and I, my husband and I used to say, we probably still do say, like parenting, being home with your kids is harder than like work. Like it’s like so much because work is so predictable, right? Like, and I like what I do, but he doesn’t really like, he doesn’t really enjoy it. And yet. 

Like, that’s sad. That’s not how it’s supposed to be. You should want to be with your family. And it has shifted so much for us. I mean, not that there aren’t still days where it feels hard, but it’s such a loss. 

[00:36:11] Randi Rubenstein: It’s hard with, its, it’s, it’s, it’s exhausting. There’s, you know, I mean, think about it. It’s like, I don’t know. I mean, anybody who’s hasn’t had like, roommate issues back, you know, when you were living with people or if you went to sleep away camp and you had to live with, you know, 12 people in one cabin, like, it’s hard to live with people.

[00:36:32] Shawn Hondorp: Yeah. 

[00:36:32] Randi Rubenstein: Sometimes people are in a bad mood. Sometimes you’re in a bad mood, sometimes people are hungry. You know? I mean, it’s like sometimes people just don’t gel. Um, sometimes, you know, if I think about camp, it’s like somebody’s feel, you think this person’s favored by the counselor, and then you’re kind of feeling less than, and then you’re pissed at that person. Like it, there’s a lot of dynamics in relationships and in living together. So lifeing is hard and living with people and, and, and having healthy relationships, it does take work. 

[00:37:08] Shawn Hondorp: Yeah, totally. So this is what I would’ve done if I hadn’t gotten guidance from you is like, just muscle through that time. But I remember like even still, I feel like there’d be times even when you would be interviewing like Michaeleen, author of Hunt, Gather, Parent on your podcast and just talking about like. I don’t know. I think it was honestly like when she was talking about like choosing to homeschool and just really enjoying her kid, these other kids. I remember getting so like teary and sort of sad because I’m like, I know that that’s possible, but I’m still struggling to like get there. 

[00:37:49] Randi Rubenstein: Mm-hmm. 

[00:37:50] Shawn Hondorp: I don’t know. I’m sure it’s just like a path of getting, but I’m like, I really do. I’m at this place where I’m like, I really do enjoy my kids a good portion of the time. Like, you know, I really enjoy my Fridays. Being home on Fridays wasn’t necessarily like, it was more of a practical choice and I really do enjoy them. And I do like an hour of work or so like this because I enjoy this and then I go back and I go back to like enjoying being with them. 

And it’s like, I think I wanted to share that because I think that that’s something that, at least for me, it didn’t feel accessible, like it felt like. I don’t know, like maybe when they get older and then I can like use my therapy skills and talk to them and tell them things. Right? Like, I mean, maybe it would’ve worked, right? But not really because isn’t just therapists listening to this podcast, but I think there’s, there’s this idea that like, I should be good at this even though I don’t work with kids, as I’ve told you many times. But, um, I wasn’t at all. 

[00:38:53] Randi Rubenstein: And it doesn’t work that way because, um, when you haven’t built the foundation that you are working so hard to build right now, right? Like these are the years. If you haven’t built that foundation, if you have just sort of, I mean, I think that’s why there’s so much performative parenting, you know, where people are just kind of muscling their way through it and acting like they have it all together, but inside they’re just, they’re not facing the way that they actually feel, which is frustrated, annoyed, um, maybe even insecure about what they’re doing. Um, disconnected, lonely. 

[00:39:36] Shawn Hondorp: Mm-hmm. 

[00:39:36] Randi Rubenstein: Um, and bad about themselves. Like everybody else seems like they’re, they know what to do or everybody else has an easy kid. So all those, all those feelings that, that you’re internalizing, you know, I mean, number one, I think a lot of people, when you’re living with that, I mean, that’s a lot of pain.

[00:39:55] Shawn Hondorp: Yeah. 

[00:39:55] Randi Rubenstein: And so I think that’s, 

[00:39:57] Shawn Hondorp: it sucks 

[00:39:57] Randi Rubenstein: causes people typically to numb, you know, in whatever way that they’re gonna numb themselves to feel better. 

[00:40:04] Shawn Hondorp: Yeah. 

[00:40:04] Randi Rubenstein: And, um, by the time you, you know, you get through all those years, the har, you know, the exhausting years with little kids, and now you have teenagers and they can do a lot of things by themselves, right? And they don’t require as, as much care in terms of their basic needs. It’s not like exhausting, backbreaking work keeping them alive, right?

[00:40:30] Shawn Hondorp: Mm-hmm. 

[00:40:30] Randi Rubenstein: Like, they can feed themselves, they can even make themselves food. They can, you know, they wanna go places with friends. They, they don’t need you with them. They’re going on play dates and sleepovers without you, you know, like, 

[00:40:43] Shawn Hondorp: Yeah. 

[00:40:43] Randi Rubenstein: There’s a lot more, um, like time and space. Yeah. And so then parents are like, great, now now’s the good part. And so now I’m gonna get to use all my therapy skills. Oh, what happened at school? Or are you still, you know, and you’re wanting to get the low down. And you have a kid like, arms cross and fine. 

[00:41:06] Shawn Hondorp: Mm-hmm. 

[00:41:06] Randi Rubenstein: No, it’s fine. Didn’t you have a, didn’t something happen with such and such friend? No. You know, and, and you have a kid just like, shuts you out. Shuts down, and you can’t reach them, but you don’t know why you can’t reach them. 

And then they might even be kind of have back talk and be surly. And then what do parents of teenagers who are going through that love to do, they love to like, you know, talk about how shitty they are either to your co-parent or maybe to your friends, like compare notes, like who’s teenagers behaving the shittiest and 

[00:41:40] Shawn Hondorp: mm-hmm. 

[00:41:41] Randi Rubenstein: Um, right. And so like, but nobody wants that. Nobody wants that relationship with their kid. 

[00:41:47] Shawn Hondorp: Right. And you’re like, I’m feeling a little, like, I guess a little sad as you’re saying that, but because I’m like, I, obviously, I don’t know what it’ll look like for me, but I, I feel like, I don’t think that’ll happen. I guess we’ll see. But uh, I, I have definitely remember this, this is cause I didn’t necessarily think I would love the baby baby stage because I don’t know like that. And I, I did actually like it more than I thought I would, but. 

And then this like little kid stage, I thought it would be better. Like, I was like, once they could talk, right. But then, and like, yeah, once they’re like little adults, not little adults, but like, once they have like things they can really get interested in, like, then I felt like I’d, but how sad that would be, right. Where you’re like, and that does happen. I mean, I know you see it all the time where it’s like, they won’t open up to me. Why? 

[00:42:39] Randi Rubenstein: Well, I’ll tell you Mel Robbins, I just was listening. Did you listen to that podcast with her daughter? 

[00:42:44] Shawn Hondorp: I think, yes. I listened to, I think I did finish it. Yeah. They had a very rough relationship for a long time. Right. 

[00:42:52] Randi Rubenstein: Yeah. And Mel was, you know, the thing I, I didn’t love about Mel’s response, um, was the daughters saying like, you worked all the time. 

[00:43:04] Shawn Hondorp: Yep. 

[00:43:04] Randi Rubenstein: And you were on the road 200 days, you know, and then when you came home, you were focused on my shiny sister, who was this amazing si singer. I kind of just felt invisible. Like you were either talking about your work. Or you were and you’re a workaholic. 

And I could tell it’s her workaholism is still very celebrated. ‘Cause the daughter, even after writing this book, they wrote, the daughter helped her to write this latest book, which is like, she’s all over the circuit. She’s on Oprah, she’s like finally arrived kind of thing. And so the daughter’s like, now I understand. You know, basically it’s like, now I see how important you are.

[00:43:41] Shawn Hondorp: Yeah. 

[00:43:41] Randi Rubenstein: Um, you’re still a workaholic, but you know, it wasn’t said in any other way than like full acceptance, which whatever. Um, but she’s like telling her I felt invisible and there was a justification. It was, it was hard to kind of notice, but there was a justification. It was like 

[00:44:00] Shawn Hondorp: I had to make money.

[00:44:00] Randi Rubenstein: I was getting our family out of debt.

[00:44:02] Shawn Hondorp: Yeah. Yeah. I do remember that now. Yep. 

[00:44:05] Randi Rubenstein: I was getting our family out of debt. I had to, I had to, I had to. 

[00:44:08] Shawn Hondorp: Mm-hmm. 

[00:44:08] Randi Rubenstein: And it’s like 200 days a year you had to? Or, during those 200 days a year. I mean, I, I’ve experienced this now with my kids that are off at college. Um, like it’s amazing the connection you can continue to feel through FaceTime.

[00:44:29] Shawn Hondorp: Hmm. 

[00:44:29] Randi Rubenstein: You know, it’s like you’re on the road, you still like, you know, like Scott will be like, what are y’all talking about? You know, like sometimes we’ll be on FaceTime if one of my kids is walking to class or whatever and he comes in here and I’m just like doing something, or I just have the camera on the dogs.

[00:44:49] Shawn Hondorp: Mm-hmm. 

[00:44:49] Randi Rubenstein: You know, like, because they’re being rowdy or whatever, and he’s like, what are y’all doing? I’m like, we’re just talking about nothing and everything and being a fly on the wall of each other’s lives. 

[00:45:01] Shawn Hondorp: Yeah. 

[00:45:01] Randi Rubenstein: Right. Like, 

[00:45:02] Shawn Hondorp: Yeah. 

[00:45:02] Randi Rubenstein: Like I’m just keeping my kid company while he walks to class. And something might get discussed or, or not. I don’t have any agenda other than being a fly on the wall of his life. 

[00:45:16] Shawn Hondorp: Yeah. 

[00:45:16] Randi Rubenstein: And you know, or Scott will say like, like our older son with Alec was referring to some friend, he’s like, how do you know these names? I’m like, ’cause I was paying attention. And when they’re talking about some thing at school, or some teacher or some, like, if they are generous enough to want to share an actual story about their lives, I act like they might as well be telling me the most important business, you know, recommendation you could imagine. Like, like this is what’s going on in their life. These, this is an interaction that they had, so like, yeah, I’m curious about them and what’s going on in their life. 

And that’s what it was like, well Mel, if you had been on the road, like kids are egocentric, they don’t wanna hear about your work, your work takes you away from them. So when you’re with them, you have to act like, and, and really like, like get interested in their school day as if it’s as exciting as the fact that you just met this celebrity, you know, doing this keynote speech or whatever it was like, like what story that’s coming out from English class when their teacher did X, Y, and Z and then somebody did something ridiculous and then everybody was dying laughing has to be as interesting as that, if you really want to get to be in their lives and a part of that.

[00:46:42] Shawn Hondorp: Right. 

[00:46:43] Randi Rubenstein: You know? 

[00:46:44] Shawn Hondorp: Yeah, for sure. And it makes me think, and this might be a separate conversation between you and I, but like how, you know, Pack Leadership allows us to show up for a family, but also how it can show, allow us to show up in our work or, you know, outside of the home, um, can be really powerful.

But I think I’m having more and more compassion lately for like the struggles of women. Like it wasn’t that long ago that women had very few options for work, right? And so as we all try to navigate. This balance of how much do I wanna work outside the home versus in. And we all judge each other. ’cause deep down we feel bad. Right? We have shame about what we are or are not doing. And just like the loss that occurs because, I mean, maybe for, who knows, for Mel Robbins or like a lot of people, they just don’t know how, they don’t even know what’s possible. 

[00:47:45] Randi Rubenstein: Right. 

[00:47:45] Shawn Hondorp: In terms of feeling connected. 

[00:47:46] Randi Rubenstein: Right. She didn’t even know she, she didn’t, that’s such a good point. So Mel didn’t have the Pack Leadership in her work yet to understand boundaries and to understand also, like I don’t have to say yes to every invitation asking me to keynote. Like I don’t have to make as much money as possible right now. Like I can choose how many days I wanna be on the road. I can also probably, what we all learned ever since Covid is there’s a lot of opportunities to do things remotely, right? 

[00:48:23] Shawn Hondorp: Yeah. 

[00:48:23] Randi Rubenstein: So like, oh, I have a family, so I, um, am not gonna be able to travel there, but if you’d like me to do something virtually, I’ve got a different price structure for that. So she hadn’t brought that into her work yet. 

[00:48:36] Shawn Hondorp: Right. 

[00:48:36] Randi Rubenstein: Probably she didn’t know it, you know. But yeah, like that little justification, which, you know, it actually was a beautiful interview because her and the daughter, you know, writing this new book, which is their version of surrender energy. Like, let them, you know, yeah. Right. And, um, and to shift outta control, which I think is a great tool. You know, they’ve healed their relationship. 

And you could hear it in the conversation, like it was a very, I felt like they were connected, authentic. And that’s also good news is like, I mean you don’t, you’re never gonna do everything perfectly and you’re just not. 

But if you’ve built that and Mel had built that foundation enough, obviously her and her husband had 

[00:49:20] Shawn Hondorp: Yeah. 

[00:49:20] Randi Rubenstein: That there’s repair hap there was, you know, the ability to repair and um, and that’s what they’re doing right now. And I kind of think it’s beautiful for them to even like model that.

[00:49:31] Shawn Hondorp: Totally. There’s always hope for that. And I think that, yeah, I mean going into, I think most parents go into, maybe not with obvious perfectionism, but I think perfectionism can show up in parenting all the time because we just want the best for our kids and we really don’t want to damage them or like damage our relationship. And, um, but I think there’s a lot of freedom and just being like. Because I remember, I like read so many books. Even before I met you, I was like reading all the sleep books and like just trying to do everything right. And it’s like, 

[00:50:08] Randi Rubenstein: Me too. I mean a hundred percent. That’s why we have what we have. Okay. So should we, should I read a little something just to give people something a little bit more tangible now that we’ve, 

[00:50:19] Shawn Hondorp: Yeah, let’s really dive in and give ’em, uh, read the Pack Leadership.

[00:50:24] Randi Rubenstein: Okay. So I’ll read a little bit. We have a whole, I have a program. You would think if I’ve developed a program I could easily synthesize and say this is what it is and I still can’t. So there’s that. Um, so I’m gonna read to you, um, a little something that I wrote that I start my program with. 

What the hell is Pack Leadership anyway? Apparently I still don’t know. Okay. So there you go. Um, and why is it important? Humans are animals, pack animals known as homo sapiens, learning to show up as the leader of your pack, who means what you say and says what you mean is alluding many of us. Um, during this program, we’ll understand why. My main objective in this program is to support you in developing your Pack Leadership with love and understanding and laughter. And zero shame and blame. 

Um, why is it important? Important. We have a worthiness and a loneliness epidemic. You’re learning to lead your little pack in a way where everyone feels safe and grounded. A pack where everyone knows they’re a valuable member. Okay? So there’s the lonely, there’s, there we’re addressing this whole loneliness thing. Everyone knows they’re a valuable member. So that’s basically saying you can go out into the world and look for micro packs to belong to, whether it’s at school, whether it’s dance, whether it’s soccer, whatever it is, whether it’s in the neighborhood. 

[00:51:47] Shawn Hondorp: Mm-hmm. 

[00:51:48] Randi Rubenstein: But just know you always belong here. 

So really implanting that, you know, because what we find is that when kids have that sense of belonging at home, or I guess what I have found, any other little tribes that, that they find out in the world that’s icing on the cake. Right. Like, because they have that sense of belonging. Okay. Back to reading. 

A pack where everyone belongs. A pack of worthy humans who work together and know that they matter to each other. 

Pack Leadership. Why is it essential for a family? Teams with a clear and coolish pack leader get to experience joy and all the feel goods, and they’re able to get through the hard stuff together without turning on each other.

that was the beginning of the program, and then I thought I would read, do you have anything to say about any of that? 

[00:52:46] Shawn Hondorp: The thing that I thought that we haven’t said yet, which is like the, the analogy to the pilot who is like stressed or calm, right? Like seeing your pack leader. Even like sports team’s analogy, right? Like, if the team is doing poorly and we’re losing, but you look at your coach and he’s like, yeah, it’s fine. We got this. Like there’s a, there’s an energy, there’s a calmness, there’s a confidence. Like just how confident and safe that makes you feel, right? Like versus, 

[00:53:15] Randi Rubenstein: I believe in us. I believe like I believe in you. I believe in us. You don’t need me to like jump in and be the hero and rescue you, ’cause you’re such a colossal mess that you can’t be counted on. No, I believe in you. I believe in us. 

[00:53:31] Shawn Hondorp: Yep. 

[00:53:31] Randi Rubenstein: Right. 

[00:53:32] Shawn Hondorp: Yes. 

[00:53:32] Randi Rubenstein: I mean, it’s like, it’s, 

[00:53:33] Shawn Hondorp: It’s grounding. 

[00:53:33] Randi Rubenstein: All of a sudden you’re flying on a plane and there’s turbulence and you’re looking at the flight attendants in that moment, ’cause they’re feeling like the pack leaders and they’re, they have an Oh shit, look on their face. Like, you’re not gonna feel very comforted. 

[00:53:48] Shawn Hondorp: No. 

[00:53:48] Randi Rubenstein: Right. You might start to panic. 

[00:53:50] Shawn Hondorp: Yeah. 

[00:53:50] Randi Rubenstein: Or if the pilot were to come on and, and you would hear, you know, oh, I don’t know how we’re gonna get through it. It’s gonna be a bit dicey.

Um, hope we make it, right. Like, like, get those seat cushions. You should have paid better attention when, when the flight attendant was telling you all the things you should do in the worst case scenario. ’cause looks like it very possibly could happen. Like everyone would be panicking.

[00:54:17] Shawn Hondorp: Yeah. 

[00:54:17] Randi Rubenstein: Like that’s, you know, you need that 

[00:54:19] Shawn Hondorp: So dysregulating. 

[00:54:21] Randi Rubenstein: Yeah. Yeah. Um, this is a little something that I had written as well. Okay, so we’re pack animals, the pack leader sets the tone. I help parents wait. I help parents, especially moms become fierce and loving pack leaders through embodying three things, self dash ish leadership.

And then in parentheses I wrote, we learned to prioritize our own needs. That’s why I call it self dash ish, right? 

[00:54:48] Shawn Hondorp: Yeah. 

[00:54:48] Randi Rubenstein: Like some, for me personally, like one of the worst things anyone could say about me is that I’m a selfish person or especially a selfish mom. Like It would be like the biggest insult. So for me, like to unpack like what does self dash ish leadership look like? It’s not selfish to be about yourself. 

[00:55:08] Shawn Hondorp: Yes. 

[00:55:08] Randi Rubenstein: Um, self dash ish Leadership. You prioritize and begin truly taking care of your, of yourself basic needs, care, figuring out what you like and what you don’t. To determine what you really want and what you don’t. I wanna help you show up as the fierce and loving leader of your pack.

Females are often conditioned to be selfless. Think about that. If you’re without a self, how on earth can you lead? You must learn to lead with your whole self ish. We do this by caring generously, generously for our own needs. Our bodies, minds, hearts, and spirits. I add the ish because we’re not narcissistic assholes, but we’re done being over considerate, selfless martyrs because that only generates resentment.

We reject the idea that a mother who prioritizes her own needs is selfish. We live into the premise that we can only give generously from overflow. It’s time to support yourself with way more than a flimsy oxygen mask. 

Receiving. We stop lone wolfing and become pack leaders. We allow people to help us. We evolve our lifestyles to suit us better and invest in the support we need. We refuse the dominating culture’s expectation that we should always know what to do, what to say, and that we should be everything to everyone. We stop treating ourselves like machines. Stop overgiving. Stop sacrificing our sanity. We work through the discomfort of needing more than we want to need. 

Messy humaning. We opt out of the need to be perfect. We forgive ourselves for losing our cool during shit storm kid moments. We mentally trained to keep improving as a leader at home and beyond. We laugh at ourselves as much as possible, rather than speaking to ourselves like a mean middle school soccer coach.

[00:56:59] Shawn Hondorp: Mm-hmm. 

[00:57:00] Randi Rubenstein: I think Pack Leadership might just be feminism. I’m not sure. 

[00:57:05] Shawn Hondorp: Right. It’s figuring out, I mean, I think, and this is the one thing I wanted to share too, like one thing I’ve definitely learned from you is how to. So I feel like though I’m hesitating because I feel like the, like victim mentality or like, it’s a very nuanced concept, that’s where I’m hesitating, but like how to really, truly actually be empowered and to acknowledge when things have that have happened are unfair.

Or, you know, women have had unfair things happen to them for a very, very, very long time, and how to acknowledge that truth. But also to, you know, really empower, like, what can I do, what can I do about this in a, in a really positive way? 

[00:57:48] Randi Rubenstein: Well, guess what? The ultimate power really comes in, shaping the next generation of human beings. Right? 

[00:57:55] Shawn Hondorp: Totally. 

[00:57:56] Randi Rubenstein: And since and since we still live in a culture where even if you’re in a dual income, both parents are working. I mean, the statistics show us the women are still doing way more of the invisible labor and the life-ing tasks and the things, you know, we’re, and we’re, you know, for lots of different reasons.

[00:58:20] Shawn Hondorp: Yeah. 

[00:58:20] Randi Rubenstein: So I mean, that’s where we are in this reality. Like we have a shit ton of power. 

[00:58:26] Shawn Hondorp: Yeah. 

[00:58:27] Randi Rubenstein: And so why wouldn’t we like shape the next generation? Right. It’s like I keep going back to this quote on my vision board. Strong women, may we know them, may we be them, may we raise them. 

[00:58:44] Shawn Hondorp: Yes.

[00:58:45] Randi Rubenstein: And also thinking about our sons as like we are raising the future partners. I mean, maybe we’re raising the future partners of other, of other sons. And also we’re raising the future partners of these strong women that we’re raising. 

[00:59:04] Shawn Hondorp: Mm-hmm. 

[00:59:05] Randi Rubenstein: So we really do have the ultimate power. We just have to learn how to step into it.

[00:59:12] Shawn Hondorp: Totally. I love that. Yeah. It’s exciting. 

[00:59:17] Randi Rubenstein: It is exciting. Yeah. I feel like what, you know, if I had any criticisms, I hate to have any criticisms about the feminist movement because I love Gloria Steinem so much. I love her. I love her. Um, but, you know, look, we’re supposed to iterate on that and women being as tough as po like playing by a man’s rules or trying to be, to bring forth as much masculine energy as you possibly can. I feel like women, strong women, we do things differently. 

[00:59:51] Shawn Hondorp: Yeah. 

[00:59:51] Randi Rubenstein: And, um, and you know, that feminine energy, it’s not, you know, just soft and, you know, sexy it’s or sweet, right? Like, feminine energy is beautiful and fierce and, um, loving. It’s like it’s yes, and both. Like we embody so many different elements of, you know what really a beautiful, strong leader that we trust. Like whenever there’s a pack leader on the scene and whenever you’re bringing that pack leader energy, like you know it, you feel it, there’s a confidence. 

But also, everything doesn’t have to be as serious as a heart attack either. Like you have so much confidence in yourself, right? And you feel safe. And then the people around you, they feel safe. Like everyone feels better when there’s a leader like that. And I really think it is the feminine energy, um, that help people to feel the safest 

[01:00:55] Shawn Hondorp: For sure, and, and I think also like it’s gonna look different on different women and 

[01:01:01] Randi Rubenstein: Yeah. 

[01:01:02] Shawn Hondorp: I think that that’s really important because we can look to, like, I can look to you as a mentor and watch how you do things, but you know, still also I’m gonna be leaning into the way Pack Leadership looks for me. And sometimes we have to try on other people’s stuff for size and that’s okay.

[01:01:19] Randi Rubenstein: That’s right. 

[01:01:20] Shawn Hondorp: But then it’s really like, okay then, and you’re, and it’s gonna be always continuing to evolve. What is my leadership style? What does it look like? 

[01:01:29] Randi Rubenstein: I always know when it’s taken root, when y’all share stories with me and your own words are coming through versus 

[01:01:39] Shawn Hondorp: Yeah.

[01:01:40] Randi Rubenstein: you know, words that maybe like you’ve, and look, I’m not into scripts, but I teach a lot through story. So, you know, at first when you’re learning something, you might try on some of my words 

[01:01:50] Shawn Hondorp: Absolutely not. 

[01:01:51] Randi Rubenstein: But I not like, absolutely not, um, not helpful. So my little catchphrases for how we show up setting boundaries. But I know when I start hearing your words or I start to like, notice that like where your personalities come through.

And I mean, it’s, it’s like I saw it with you on the retreat. You know, I mean, and, and of course like we’re all gonna have a different style because, because we’re human, four-leaf clovers. Like it’s, if it’s not performative, it’s going to be interesting and we’re all learning from each other. I mean, that’s why a lot of times, like way back when I changed the name of, of my company from randirubenstein.com to Mastermind Parenting, because it’s like, I had a sense, I didn’t necessarily know it, but I had a sense that it was gonna be a co-creation, that we were all going to be doing this together and learning from each other.

[01:02:51] Shawn Hondorp: Yeah, it’s super powerful. And I mean, we’ll probably end our conversation for today soon, but I, the other things that I’m like, oh, I want to expand on. Like it is. It’s such a gift. And like a lot of women don’t feel like they know how to connect at home and raise the humans in a way that’s empowering. And I’m definitely still on that journey and probably always will be, but that’s a gift. 

And also if we feel called to do other work in the world, right? Which is probably many people listening to this podcast, like, we can do that without sacrificing like relationships that matter the most. And, I find it’s very, you have to search really hard to find models for that. And I have searched really hard to find models for what that can look like. Certainly in you and some of the other therapists that I follow more recently because in the past I followed sometimes women, sometimes men, where I’m just like. None, none about what they’re doing. Maybe the business they’re building or like their actual relationships are really what I want.

And um, so I think it’s a really hopeful thing when we can see someone walking that walk. And, you know, certainly hearing, I think everyone in the, in your community, hearing stories from your recent vacations and having all these like flown and grown kids that want to come back and be on podcasts with you and all this, it’s just, it’s really hopeful and really exciting.

[01:04:21] Randi Rubenstein: I’ve just been following the feelings in me of what, you know, what seems fun. And for my podcast, this week I recorded a podcast with my daughter, which I’ve been, you know, I think this will be her, the third one that she’s been on. 

And I was thinking about it. I was like, I think I just wanna have like, let people be a fly on the wall of our conversation. Like I don’t really even wanna have like a super objective and um, just like a catch up conversation where we kind of broke down the trip and we talked about some different things. 

And somebody on my team listened to the recording today. And, and it was Lindsey. And um, and really it was kind of out of order ’cause I said, oh, I recorded another episode with Avery, it’s not gonna come out for a while, but I, and she said to me, so, she goes, I don’t know. We’ll have to check with our members and the listeners to see if it resonates.

She goes, but for, she goes, for me it’s so fun to like, just get to be a fly on the wall of y’all’s conversation. Like, she’s like, you know, I mean, and we just kind of started talking about how it’s like most people I know have sort of a fraught relationship with their mother, or there’s, there’s, there’s, it’s gunky, right? And there’s stuff, yeah. 

And she’s like, you know, to be, uh, to hear you guys together, you know, and she’s like, it’s like she’s the product of all of this. And then to hear just like you guys interacting with each other and this, uh, I think this episode’s gonna be hilarious because, um, ’cause she talks about, like, talk about imperfect parenting. She, like, she talks about like being the kid that like didn’t have the permission slip. And so like she’d go on trips like in middle school and high school and like the whole group would have to wait for an hour because she had to, and they were like calling me with from a satellite phone and we were having to like send in.

[01:06:20] Shawn Hondorp: Whoops. Yeah. 

[01:06:22] Randi Rubenstein: But then she, and she goes, she goes, and that happened all the time. And I’m like, do, I didn’t say did not happen all the time. Um, but I just laughed about it. But I’m like, oh, and guess she turned out okay. Guess we still have a good relationship. But 

[01:06:38] Shawn Hondorp: Yeah. 

[01:06:38] Randi Rubenstein: I, I think where in me, I, I just said to her last night before Lindsey left me this today, and I said to Avery last night, I said, get all your equipment set up. I said, because right now, like, let’s just record, like that’s what feels fun to me is recording conversations with my daughter. And I’m not sure if it’ll, if listeners will relate, but I’m like kind of sick of teaching people concepts and I’d rather just like let them experience the result. 

[01:07:07] Shawn Hondorp: Totally. 

[01:07:08] Randi Rubenstein: And see what comes outta that?

[01:07:09] Shawn Hondorp: Yeah. When we really like are a fly out the wall in that process, at least, you know, for myself, when we really are just like listening to our bodies. Like that’s what happened when I listened to you and Michaeleen talk. Right. And that’s probably what will happen where you’re just like, oh, I want more of that. And, and then it’s like, okay, well what do I need to do to do that? Well. 

I think what I want people to take from this conversation is there’s so much hope in, I mean, regardless of where you are in your phase with your family and your relationship with your kids, like there’s so much hope. And I can attest, I think the work can be hard as I think most of you know, the people that do it would, would agree. But it’s, there’s, it’s so worth it. 

And to feel this like as someone who, yeah, like, yeah, three years ago I wasn’t a super confident person. I mean, there’s aspects of my life that I was confident in, but certainly not in parenting. And I think in a lot of things, business not right. And so, yeah, people learn through story as you say. And so that’s hopefully what I think people will take from this. 

And, you know, maybe when we come back for part two of however many parts, but I think there’s at least one more part of like diving into like creativity, entrepreneurship, like leadership as. As a woman, but like Pack Leadership applies to men too, right? We didn’t specifically say that, but it does. And everyone benefits from a calm, grounded, pack leader, uh, regardless of your sex and gender. So 

[01:08:48] Randi Rubenstein: Yeah, no, it, of all of this, I mean, I have, you know, male clients and, and male listeners to my podcast. Um, and I’m like, Women have had to take messages that are directed at men and translate them for ourselves. And so, you know, my stance is, is the men can do that. Like, I’m not catering to the men. Like, I’m so happy the men that listen and the men that wanna learn more, and the men that are on this journey too. And they’re the kind of men that understand, yeah, the women have been doing this for long enough. I’m capable of translating this and applying it to myself.

[01:09:28] Shawn Hondorp: Mm-hmm. 

[01:09:28] Randi Rubenstein: And I don’t have to have little baby feelings and feel excluded. I, I know. 

[01:09:34] Shawn Hondorp: What’s the thing you say have like a little bratty baby moments or something? 

[01:09:39] Randi Rubenstein: Bratty baby moment. Yeah. 

[01:09:41] Shawn Hondorp: Yeah. 

[01:09:41] Randi Rubenstein: But being bratty little baby. But, uh, I mean, we all have the ability to be bratty little babies, but I’m like, yeah, the men that are supposed to be here, they get it. 

[01:09:50] Shawn Hondorp: Yeah, for sure. 

[01:09:51] Randi Rubenstein: And um, yeah, they get it and they know like, we’re inclusive and awesome. Right? Like, there, like there’s are always, it’s like the expanding table. Oh, you wanna, you wanna pull up a seat? Here, let’s pull up a seat for you. Guess what? This table just expands and expands. We’re includers. 

[01:10:08] Shawn Hondorp: Totally. Yeah. 

[01:10:08] Randi Rubenstein: And so, yeah, but we don’t wanna include you if you’re gonna have, if you’re the kind of guy who has, you know, who’s gonna act like a bratty little baby then, sorry, there’s not a seat yet. 

[01:10:19] Shawn Hondorp: Sorry. 

[01:10:20] Randi Rubenstein: Go do, go do a little of your own work and then we’ll pull up the seat for you.

[01:10:23] Shawn Hondorp: Right. Um, okay. Well hopefully this conversation was as fun for other people as it was for me. Um, anything that you like, wanna summarize and want people to know as we wrap up this part of the Pack Leadership conversation? 

[01:10:37] Randi Rubenstein: I still wish I had a synthesis. Um, I mean, 

[01:10:41] Shawn Hondorp: Hashtag feminism.

[01:10:43] Randi Rubenstein: Hashtag feminism. Maybe that’s the synthesis. Um, yeah, no, I mean. This is what I wanna be doing. I wanna be talking with you. I wanna be talking with my daughter, Avery. I wanna be unpacking this and not having all the answers and co-creating together. And even people listening to this, I feel like it’s like you’re co-creating with us.

[01:11:07] Shawn Hondorp: Yeah. 

[01:11:07] Randi Rubenstein: That’s what Gloria Steinem, that’s what she, I’ve heard her say is like, Like she’s just spent her whole life and career traveling around, you know, collecting women and they just, they, it was sharing circles, just, just women gathering and whatever way they could find, and, you know, sharing stories. And we’re more alike than we’re different and we’re learning from each other and we’re getting stronger and we’re feeling connected and we don’t have to feel all alone in whatever this experience is. Like, that’s what we’re doing. And 

[01:11:43] Shawn Hondorp: Yeah. 

[01:11:43] Randi Rubenstein: You know, and I mean, I think it’s pretty cool that, you know, we’re all like freaked out, AI, technology, and when we use technology to create sharing circles and connecting conversations like this, like it just feels like a beautiful thing.

[01:11:59] Shawn Hondorp: Totally. Yeah. And I mean, I feel like that’s such a nice transition to what I wanna talk about next time, which is like, we live in a world where money, we do need money, right? And so it doesn’t mean anyone has to create businesses with their Zone of Genius or what they love, but they may want to. And if you do want to, there are ways to do it without getting pulled into all of the marketing BS and all of the like often white men driven models. 

And. So that’s like a little teaser because I think that you’ve taught me about Zone of Genius. We’ve done some collaborations around Zone of Genius and creativity. There’s been a lot of really beautiful things coming and still coming out of that work. And so we’ll delve into that more next time. So stay tuned.

[01:12:52] Randi Rubenstein: I’m excited. 

[01:12:53] Shawn Hondorp: Yay. Well, thank you so much for being here. As always. 

[01:12:57] Randi Rubenstein: Thanks for having me.  

Thanks for listening today, guys. I hope you picked up some tips, tools, maybe some baby steps for creating more balance and boundaries in your life. And I just wanted to let you know, if you want to continue moving the needle forward in creating this for yourself, having a happier household, I want you to go to my website and check out mastermindparenting.com. We have three beginning programs, and if you need some accountability and more support then please look for the one that would be a good fit for you.

And, as always, we’re on all the social channels under Mastermind Parenting, on Instagram it’s mastermind_parenting. And, you know, periodically I do pop up on different Instagram lives, Facebook lives where I give you teaching and coaching and I love engaging with you live to help you help your strong-willed kids so that they can feel better, because when they feel better they do better, and I love, love, love getting to know you guys. 

So thanks for listening. If you like this podcast, please don’t forget to subscribe, rate and review. Super, super appreciative.