319: The Biggest Mistake We Make Around Homework (And what to do instead!)

[00:00:00] Randi Rubenstein: My name is Randi Rubenstein, and welcome to the Mastermind Parenting Podcast. At Mastermind Parenting, we’re on a mission to support strong-willed kids and the families that love them. 

Hi everyone. Welcome to. The pod. The pod this week. I just was listening to a hilarious little spoof podcast from 2023 with Amy Poehler, where she does this fake therapist. She, and it’s called Dr. Sheila. And I started listening to it and it was freaking hilarious. And she’s like, as we like to say, the pod. The pod. I’m here. Okay, I digress. 

I’m here with Avery. Avery, favorite daughter, Rubenstein is here. Uh, once again. So thanks for being here. She actually now works with me. She’s an official part-time employee. We’re doing all kinds of fun things together, including recording these podcasts. 

And I wanted to talk, we were just kind of talking about it beforehand. Um, what do we wanna talk about this week? And I thought, well. I know this gets asked quite often and I know parents worry. How do you get your kids to care about their schoolwork more than you do?

[00:01:19] Avery Rubenstein: Mm. Yeah.

[00:01:22] Randi Rubenstein: And sometimes there’s all the kinds of sneaky ways all the formal parenting language. I wanna motivate them. How do I get them to be motivated? Uh, so I thought that could be a good topic for us to unpack.

[00:01:38] Avery Rubenstein: I like it. Let’s do it.

[00:01:41] Randi Rubenstein: Okay. So can you just tell us what worked and, and just give us the lowdown.

[00:01:47] Avery Rubenstein: Well, my initial thought was reading is what made me fall in love with an intake and knowledge, and I think. Honestly, if I think back to why I enjoy reading so much still, ’cause I really only read nonfic or fiction books, definitely don’t read nonfiction. Um, I don’t like that type of learning. 

Um, so I think it was cultivating magical thinking when I was young. Like being really comfortable in putting myself in another world that made me enjoy like those Magic Treehouse books. ’cause every single book was like, you get to travel to a new world and then Percy Jackson, like, oh, I get to imagine what if I, you know, was adopted and one of my parents was a god or something like that.

So I feel like that’s what initially started it. But I don’t know, like you guys never asked for a report card or like we’re keeping up with my grades. I think I just like didn’t like the feeling of disappointment if I didn’t do well.

[00:02:51] Randi Rubenstein: Okay, so there’s a lot to unpack there. ’cause

[00:02:54] Avery Rubenstein: Sorry, I was rambled.

[00:02:56] Randi Rubenstein: No, no, no. It was perfect. It was perfect. It didn’t sound like there was a lot to unpack, but just because I hear parents all the time, it’s like, well, how do you get your kids to become readers?

[00:03:07] Avery Rubenstein: Mm-hmm.

[00:03:08] Randi Rubenstein: How do you get your kids to become readers? How do you, and the other part is we never asked for a report card, like full disclosure. And I asked you this the other day ’cause I didn’t really remember. I’m like, did I ever look at any of your report cards? 

[00:03:26] Avery Rubenstein: I don’t think so. I think the only time you would see a bad grade was when I needed you to sign like a failing quiz or something.

[00:03:33] Randi Rubenstein: Yeah.

[00:03:34] Avery Rubenstein: Yeah, which was not that often.

[00:03:37] Randi Rubenstein: I don’t even remember that, but um, yeah, like 

[00:03:41] Avery Rubenstein: In seventh 

[00:03:42] Randi Rubenstein: I’m like,

[00:03:42] Avery Rubenstein: I actually remember

[00:03:45] Randi Rubenstein: What class?

[00:03:46] Avery Rubenstein: It was math.

[00:03:48] Randi Rubenstein: Really?

[00:03:49] Avery Rubenstein: Mm-hmm. I know, and I think that’s why I became so good at math is because I was like, that can never happen again. 

[00:03:56] Randi Rubenstein: What was the concept? Were you just not grasping

[00:03:59] Avery Rubenstein: It was pre-algebra, I think. And I think it was just new

[00:04:04] Randi Rubenstein: mm-hmm.

[00:04:05] Avery Rubenstein: And I also didn’t pay attention. I think the class was really boring. 

[00:04:10] Randi Rubenstein: Yeah, that makes sense. I just think of you as being a little mathy Math person.

[00:04:17] Avery Rubenstein: I know it was embarrassing.

[00:04:21] Randi Rubenstein: But I think even just the thing of, I never looked at a report card that probably has people listening going, wait, what? The, what? You never looked at a report card. But did I always end up knowing what y’all’s grades were?

[00:04:36] Avery Rubenstein: Yeah. But also we were proud of our grades, so a lot of times I feel like we’d tell you. But 

[00:04:42] Randi Rubenstein: You always told, y’all always told me I didn’t have to look at your report cards ’cause you just, you would tell me.

Yeah. Or we’d be like, oh man, I gotta B in this class, or I’d be disappointed in myself. So I’d be like, Ugh, I have a C in history right now. I have to fix that. And it would be more I confided in you over it, rather than tell you out of admission of guilt. 

Yeah, I kind of just wanna like unpack that because I know that people wanna know

[00:05:08] Avery Rubenstein: Mm-hmm.

[00:05:09] Randi Rubenstein: How do you get your kids to. And so really, to me it is like, how do you help your kids to develop agency? Which is the fancy word for they’re, they’re the ones in charge of their schoolwork. They’re the ones who feel responsible. They’re the ones who feel in control. I think that’s the, the problem a lot of times is, parents just are confused. They think it’s their job to be on top of all their kids. Like that’s what a good parent does. You know, they think like it’s, it’s their job. A good parent is super involved. 

And I mean if, and if you had neglectful parents or just regular parents of the seventies and eighties that like. Uh, they didn’t know what the hell their kids were doing. And so I think a lot of times parents in this era have like overcompensated for like, my parents didn’t know anything, so I’m gonna be the parent that’s on top of all my kids’ schoolwork. And so they, by being so on top of it, I think they accidentally take away the kids’ agency.

‘Cause it’s like when do, what homework do we have today? When do we have our next test? Like, and the reason why I just brought up that language is it brings me to a story that I’ve been wanting to tell you about, but I told you I wasn’t gonna tell you about until we were on the podcast. So Avery’s just gonna be hearing the story really for the first time. 

I was in Target on Sunday running some errands just getting a couple things and , and all of a sudden I feel a woman staring at me. And, um, you know, I’m trying not to make eye contact ’cause I don’t wanna run into anyone because I just wanna like, get in and out of there as quickly as possible and it’s in our neighborhood and there’s a chance I could run into someone I know.

[00:07:06] Avery Rubenstein: I’ve never not, at Target.

[00:07:08] Randi Rubenstein: Yeah.

And so I feel, you know, when you like, feel the eyes on you and somebody’s just like waiting for you to make eye contact. So I look up and it’s Mrs. Adler. And Mrs. Adler was Avery and Cory’s first grade teacher.

[00:07:25] Avery Rubenstein: One time I accidentally called her mom.

[00:07:26] Randi Rubenstein: Yeah, so, and in all the years since y’all have had her, I’ve never run into her out in the wild, like never. And she looks the exact same. I mean, she looks, she looked fantastic. 

And so anyway, so I was like, oh my God. I was like, Mrs. Adler? And she was like, is it you? And I was like, it’s me. Is it you? She’s like, it’s me. And so we were so delighted to see each other and we like chatted for like 20 minutes, catching up in Target, and she’s like, how? How is everyone? She’s like, tell me about Avery Ruth.

[00:08:13] Avery Rubenstein: She remembers my middle name.

[00:08:14] Randi Rubenstein: Oh, she kept referring to you as Avery Ruth.

[00:08:16] Avery Rubenstein: I guess that’s her first name. Huh?

[00:08:18] Randi Rubenstein: So I think the thing was was that you were like, when you found out her name was Ruth Adler, you were like, oh my gosh, my, my name is Ruth too. I’m Avery Ruth, and she, I think all year, I think she called you Avery Ruth.

Oh, that’s cute. 

It was like a bond. So anyway, so she was wanting to hear what you were doing and all the things, and she’s like, she’s in California. I’m from California. I love, yeah, she’s from LA. She loves it out there. She’s like, of course she’s in California. 

[00:08:56] Randi Rubenstein: so she wanted to hear all about you and we were just chatting and catching up. And then at the, at the very end, she says, we do you promise? Do you promise you’ll tell the kids that, that I send my love? And I was like, are you kidding? You’re, this is gonna be all over our family group text. This, it’s like, you’re like a major celebrity sighting. Um, I was like, you are very impactful in my kids’ lives. 

And she goes. Your family was very impactful to me too. And then she like touched my arm and she goes, especially you. And I know. I know. And then she said, and then she said, but you promise you’ll, you’ll tell, you’ll tell Avery Ruth like, really? Tell her. And I was like, I promise.

[00:09:49] Avery Rubenstein: She’s so wonderful.

[00:09:51] Randi Rubenstein: I know.

[00:09:52] Avery Rubenstein: I wish I had a way 

[00:09:53] Randi Rubenstein: know. 

[00:09:54] Avery Rubenstein: get in touch with her.

[00:09:56] Randi Rubenstein: She’s just the best. And so a little backstory about Mrs. Adler. She was this first grade teacher at their elementary school. Everyone wanted Mrs. Adler. She was just like, she was like the teacher. Just an amazing teacher. She had a amazing reputation. But I had always heard before you were in her class, ’cause we, you, you started at that school and we weren’t like, we were pretty new to that school. I think maybe you and Alec started at the, no, you and Alec didn’t start at the same time. 

[00:10:28] Avery Rubenstein: A year before me.

[00:10:30] Randi Rubenstein: So, yeah, so I’d only like had a kid at the school for a couple years, but the people who went to this school, like they had grown up going to this school, like there was a culture at this school where people were in the know and they were like the insiders. We were not the insiders. 

So everyone wanted Mrs. Adler. I had always heard Mrs. Adler was an amazing teacher. And when you got her, um, people told me, they’re like, listen. She’s not like a lot of the other teachers who like, you know, you’ll become friends with them or they make chitchat with you in the carpool line or the hall. Like, don’t expect her to like be particularly friendly to you. Like, don’t take it personally. She’s not like that. But the kids love her. They, she will be the most amazing teacher for your kid. 

So I had heard that, so I didn’t expect any, any friendliness from her. And obviously she was the polar opposite that year. I mean, because I also had started like working behind the scenes and you know, I was doing my own form of volunteerism, which I realize now is, was like, I was like the volunteer that was like the opposite of the PTO volunteer. I like volunteered in very non-traditional ways and, um, 

[00:11:47] Avery Rubenstein: I remember.

[00:11:48] Randi Rubenstein: So anyway, so I was working with some of the teachers and, and doing some different things like in terms of like classroom management training and things like that. And so I would go in and I would read certain stories to classes and, and so I got to know Mrs. Adler that way. 

And, um, I don’t know, we just had an understanding and she just, I just felt like she, like was she adored you? Um, I think, probably also like you were a little bookworm, you know? Um, I don’t know.

But anyway, so she, she was sharing, we were sharing stories. We were sharing stories about what she’s doing now, and she was telling me that she’s kind of a resource specialist, so she’s not running a classroom anymore as she’s just pulling kids out that need a little extra support, whether it’s acceleration or learning differences.

And she was like, it’s the best ’cause I still get to. Interact with the kids. Like that’s my whole job is interacting with the kids. But there, there’s no administration stuff. I don’t have to deal with any parent stuff. Like I just get to be with the kids. And, um, and she’s so magical with the kids. 

And so we started talking about parents and parenting and I said, you wanna know, one of the things that I teach parents all the time, and they act like I’m speaking Chinese when they first hear it, is, you have to let your kids develop agency, stop checking their homework. And she just kind of nodded. 

And I said, you can check that they did it like for completion, but stop checking their homework. Because if there’s something they’re not understanding, the teacher needs to know that this child needs to be taught in a different way. Like they, they’re not grasping the concepts. 

Like stop checking your kids’ homework. Stop trying to make sure they get a hundred on their homework. Stop doing all the things. Stop going through your PI kids’ backpacks and pillaging through their backpacks and cleaning out their backpacks, and taking out all the things that your kids need to sign. I mean, that need to have you sign. 

I was like, I remember getting into, like, a disagreement with a third grade teacher at the school way back when, who kind of chastised me for Alec coming back to school and continuing to have things unsigned. And, Ms. Adler was just kind of smiling and I said, and I said, I’m sorry, I disagree. She was like, oh, kids that have, you know, ADHD and labels and different things. They really need this extra support and you really can’t just. And I was like, well, I’m not doing that. Like he, if he wants something signed. What was the rule? If y’all needed something signed?

[00:14:40] Avery Rubenstein: We had to ask you the day before.

[00:14:42] Randi Rubenstein: No, no, no, if you like, came home from school with, with papers in your backpack that were required, a signature, what did you have to do?

[00:14:51] Avery Rubenstein: I don’t know, leave them on the table or something.

[00:14:54] Randi Rubenstein: You had to bring them to me with a pen.

[00:14:56] Avery Rubenstein: Oh, right, I do remember that.

[00:14:59] Randi Rubenstein: That was the rule. Anything you need to sign, I’m happy to sign it. Just bring it, bring the paper to me with a pen. I’ll sign it. It’s your

[00:15:06] Avery Rubenstein: Right. I also just got a flashback of you playing dumb when we would ask you for homework help. I don’t know why I thought you couldn’t do third grade math, but I was convinced you couldn’t do third grade math.

[00:15:18] Randi Rubenstein: What can you, yeah, take us down that

[00:15:21] Avery Rubenstein: She, I didn’t. I didn’t know my mom could write until she wrote a book. Like I thought you were illiterate. And it was like anytime we asked her for homework help, we would never ask my dad. He’d get too stressed. It was just like was the classic, like you get a math problem wrong and he flips. But we would ask my mom for help and it was literally like, it would be three plus B equals six. B being three and my mom was like, I never, I don’t remember algebra, I don’t remember. Sorry. I’d be like, uh, she’s so dumb. But then later I realized, no, you just didn’t wanna do our homework for us, which is valid.

[00:16:14] Randi Rubenstein: I mean, I just took the hit it.

[00:16:17] Avery Rubenstein: You 

[00:16:17] Randi Rubenstein: It was like I did.

[00:16:19] Avery Rubenstein: Thought you were dumb as rocks.

[00:16:25] Randi Rubenstein: It made you into a really great student. You’re like, I got, I bet. I guess I, it’s up to me to do my own work and figure it out.

[00:16:32] Avery Rubenstein: I was like, I’m smarter than her. I’m more athletic than her. Just God.

[00:16:38] Randi Rubenstein: She’s a real loser. She’s a real lou over here. Um, yeah, so, so I was telling Ms. Adler that like, you know, people can’t believe when I’m like, don’t do it. How are they gonna learn to be responsible for getting their things signed, for making sure it gets back in their folder, in their backpack, turning it in the next day, if you’re constantly the one who’s taking ownership over that, if you think it’s your job to pillage through their backpack, when are they gonna develop that sense of agency and responsibility?

And the same thing, like if they come home, if they know during class, like, you know, my homework, I don’t really need to pay attention to this is how we’re gonna do the homework, or this is how we’re gonna do the assignment. Because when I get home, my mom’s just gonna reteach it to me. You know, if they constantly have that crutch. But I guess in your case, if you think your mom’s dumb as rocks.

[00:17:35] Avery Rubenstein: I knew couldn’t it to me. Yeah. I was like, she’s can’t, she doesn’t know syntax. I Have to pay attention to what a compound sentence is. She is, has no idea.

[00:17:44] Randi Rubenstein: I mean, 

[00:17:46] Avery Rubenstein: I have a distinct memory of, in third grade, in Miss Devore’s class, being in the trailers and we were learning about different syntax in sentences and like compound sentences and all this stuff. And I remember playing, paying really close attention ’cause it was the first time I had like, I literally think it was one of the first times I’d ever like, felt like I was learning something new in school that like I had to think about. And I remember thinking, man, my mom would not, this one’s on me. Like, I gotta figure this out.

[00:18:20] Randi Rubenstein: I better pay close attention here.

[00:18:22] Avery Rubenstein: And I came home from Ms. Tito’s class being like, I learned how to write a five paragraph essay. You’re like, wow, I don’t know how to do that. You are like, she’s really, she’s teaching you new concepts. I’ve never heard of that before. It was like, all these times I was proud of this. And honestly, you know, it feels good to have knowledge that someone else doesn’t have. I think I felt good coming home and sharing lessons with you. ‘Cause I was like, she needs to know this one. Like,

[00:18:48] Randi Rubenstein: I mean, this is probably blowing people’s minds ’cause they’re like, wait, what you,

[00:18:53] Avery Rubenstein: Yeah. Act like a dum dum. That’s our lesson.

[00:18:55] Randi Rubenstein: Our lesson is act like a dum dum.

[00:18:58] Avery Rubenstein: Mm-hmm.

[00:18:58] Randi Rubenstein: It’s your kids. It, it really, it’s like that’s how I felt and sometimes I would say like, I don’t know. I did fourth grade a long time ago. This is, it’s your chance now.

[00:19:10] Avery Rubenstein: You’re like fourth grade. I don’t remember the lessons from fourth grade.

[00:19:13] Randi Rubenstein: Yeah. Good luck. I hope you retain more than I did. I.

[00:19:16] Avery Rubenstein: You’re like, and I remember we used to always say whenever there was a math question, I haven’t done math. I don’t work in a math related field. I haven’t done math, and god knows how long. I was like, damn, you really forget that stuff.

[00:19:27] Randi Rubenstein: Just like let your kids experience be about them. And, like, you don’t have to flex when it comes to your kids. Like they’re, even, even if your kids think you might be a dum dum, like they still love you just the same. And eventually they’ll realize you’re not. They’ll eventually, well, I don’t know, maybe you still think I’m kind of a dum dum.

[00:19:47] Avery Rubenstein: I’ve, I figured it out.

[00:19:48] Randi Rubenstein: Um, but you know, like let them have, be in third grade, let them be in fourth grade. 

And so, Mrs., we were having this conversation and I was telling Mrs. Adler that one time I did this call, this homework call, that after I did it, it was like a, it was like a call for like the general public where I like taught a workshop all about, basically this concept, how to help kids develop agency. when it comes to their homework and afterwards, I said to Lindsey, uh, who chose that topic? That was the worst topic in the world. I didn’t even help my own kids with their homework. I don’t even wanna talk about this. 

And Lindsey will tell you that that is the resource she has shared the most with the most people. And yeah, she’s like, this is what people are stressed. And so the whole thing about like, well, how do you help your kids to own their homework? How do you get your kids to become readers, you know, I think that’s the part that sort of alludes people. 

But what Mrs. Adler, I thought I appreciated. She shared this story. She said, you know, I had one of my, you know, two of my kids were really academic kids, and then I had one kid that needed a little extra support, she said. And I made the mistake of, I used to say to him, what do we have for homework today? 

And she was like, I was that mom who sat with him and, um, handicapped him basically. And she said, and when he went to college, he was really struggling and he was like, I don’t think I can do this. And she said that, you know, she was like, you can, you know, but you’ve been used to me doing everything with you, and now it’s time. You know, we should have done this long time ago. Oops. And now it’s time. 

And she said he did figure it out and he did end up like graduating with honors and like really figured it out and was so proud of himself and all the things. But she goes, I was that parent. I just didn’t know. She goes, I didn’t know that. Like I, I had a kid that needed some extra support, so I sat with him and I handicapped him instead of learning how to help him to develop the agency.

[00:22:12] Avery Rubenstein: And you handicap like it’s handicapping, obviously like skills of agency, but also just like life skills. Like I have friends from college and like all my friends from college are incredibly intelligent. And one of my friends, chem major, horrible writer, horrible writer and would have me read over her stuff and edit and whatever, and I asked her, I was like, dude, like you’re this literally the smartest person I know. Why are you so bad at writing? 

And she said, ’cause her parents assumed it wasn’t her skillset and they would help her on every essay.

[00:22:46] Randi Rubenstein: Mm.

[00:22:47] Avery Rubenstein: And it was like whenever I would ask for your help on an essay, you’d edit it for grammar. You know, my job was the bulk and it developed, and obviously it’s some part of writing is a natural skill, but like I, I never considered myself a good writer until later in life. And it’s, I think because I developed skills early on.

[00:23:07] Randi Rubenstein: Yeah, but you 

[00:23:08] Avery Rubenstein: Doing it myself. 

[00:23:09] Randi Rubenstein: I, Corey needed something different from me. Um. Because you had that great teacher that taught you the five paragraph format, which I really believe in. Um, they stopped by, by the time Corey came around for whatever reason, Corey really didn’t learn, um, or have as strong a teacher at that stage as you had. And so Corey needed a little extra support. 

So when it came time for Corey, as he got older to write papers, I actually, uh, you know, you only needed me to maybe do some edits for grammar. Um, Corey required a little more. So Corey, I would help him. Um, and this is when he’s older. So he already had agency, he already owned his work. And he was stressed about something and now he’s old enough, like that foundation has been set, and so now he’s in middle going into high school and he’s coming to me and asking me for help. 

He’s stressed out and so like I helped him a lot of times with like outlining things, finding like, you know, what’s gonna be your, your main sentence? What, you know, what are you gonna be trying to prove? Do you have three points? Let’s, I like he needed more help, kind of flushing that out. Um, and, he really liked my help with that. But that was like after the foun, you know, so it was like once he was old enough that I could help him and I wasn’t gonna be a crutch, I was just gonna be a support, um, then I was willing to help him. 

And, you know, look, if you had had a bunch of learning differences in, in elementary school where you really just weren’t grasping the concepts, um, I would’ve made sure you had those extra resources. I just wouldn’t, may have made those extra resources me. 

Because I just think when you also, when you have a kid with a learning, I mean, I just see it so much when parents are like sitting with their kids and it’s just like every day homework’s a struggle. And I’m like, really? Because after a long day of school, your kid needs you to be their mom. And llike, we’vegotta find those extra resources that I, I really think a third party is so helpful, you know, whether they get that extra help at school, whether it’s you’re having them watch, you know, one of those whatever videos on YouTube, whether you’re taking ’em to a tutor or whatever.

But I also have a caveat about tutors, because I’ve known a lot of kids who have a learning difference, and they have these, you know, really like high level tutors with lots of extra degrees and who are a lot of times like diagnosticians and they go to the tutor like three days a week and they do all their homework with the tutor and,

[00:26:03] Avery Rubenstein: Right. 

[00:26:04] Randi Rubenstein: And I have, I think that’s another crutch. I think that’s 

[00:26:08] Avery Rubenstein: I agree with that. Mm-hmm.

[00:26:10] Randi Rubenstein: You know, I think it’s almost like, kind of like kicking it more old school where it’s like, until you are sure, like your kid needs that extra resource, like give them a chance to figure it out.

[00:26:26] Avery Rubenstein: I think that parents need to remember, teachers aren’t gonna flunk your kid out of first grade. Like if they take home an incomplete homework assignment, it’s really gonna be okay. You don’t need to worry about your kid getting perfect grades so they can get into the perfect middle school. Like who gives a shit?

You know, teach your kids how to learn first. If a teacher, if a good teacher, if it’s a shitty teacher, what are you gonna do? But if a good teacher sees a kid with half completed homework and weird answers, they’re not gonna be like, this kid’s dumb as rocks. They’re going to think, what can we do to help him? Or her. 

[00:26:59] Randi Rubenstein: Yeah. Yeah. Elementary school is to help your kid be, be good at learning. Have a love for learning. You know, want to learn not to feel defeated when it comes to learning. You know, and I kind of feel like it’s like if your kid thinks, I can’t do anything without assistance, if something’s hard, I have to immediately ask for help rather than maybe just taking a break and then coming back to it.

[00:27:31] Avery Rubenstein: Mm-hmm.

[00:27:32] Randi Rubenstein: I think that a lot of times that makes a kid feel bad about themselves, like, I’m not good at this learning thing, and then they don’t develop that love for learning.

[00:27:42] Avery Rubenstein: My whole other issue with like accelerated programs. But that’s another story. I just get, so I just like, there’s both sides of it where the kids who don’t get into the accelerated program feel it crap about themselves. They’re like, I’m dumb one in the class. And the kids like me who get pulled in the middle of class to go into this accelerated program. 

Eventually your learning catches up with you and you get to wherever that hits you, high school or college or middle school even, and you’re not one of the accelerated kids anymore, and you’re like, where did it go? I had that big issue in college where I was like, damn, I used to be smart. I’m dumb now.

[00:28:21] Randi Rubenstein: Mm-hmm.  

[00:28:22] Avery Rubenstein: I think it all needs to be restructured. That always bothered me.

[00:28:26] Randi Rubenstein: Yeah. That’s so interesting. Yeah. It’s like if you’re told, if you’re constantly told that. You’re smart. Well, what happens when you’re

[00:28:35] Avery Rubenstein: You’re smarter than other kids.

[00:28:37] Randi Rubenstein: Yeah, told you’re smarter than other kids? What happens when all of a sudden something’s not coming easily to you?

[00:28:44] Avery Rubenstein: Right? That’s how I felt in, oh my God, in AP physics in high school. It was the first time I’d ever been like. I cannot, for the life of me grasp this concept. I got the smartest kid in the school to tutor me who was in my class. I tried everything, and it just did not come easily. It happened to be in college statistics. Like, it’s just like these certain concepts that don’t come easily, and all of a sudden I’m like, I’m not gifted. Like, I’m just like everyone else, but I, I don’t know how to do that. You 

[00:29:13] Randi Rubenstein: You need to, 

[00:29:13] Avery Rubenstein: It created a whole crisis.

[00:29:15] Randi Rubenstein: It’s the beginner brave.

[00:29:18] Avery Rubenstein: I had to beginner brave with AP physics,

[00:29:21] Randi Rubenstein: Mm-hmm.

[00:29:21] Avery Rubenstein: And then I got a, I think I got a one or two on the AP test 

[00:29:25] Randi Rubenstein: You also that teach that teacher

[00:29:27] Avery Rubenstein: That teacher sucked. That teacher sucked. 

[00:29:29] Randi Rubenstein: Beginner, brave. That’s us seeding the new, the, the latest story we’ve written in our not yet published children’s series, and it’s our story called Beginner Brave, which is all about, never saying growth mindset, but it’s a story about growth mindset. It’s a story counteracting this exact thing that you experienced,

[00:29:52] Avery Rubenstein: Mm-hmm.

[00:29:52] Randi Rubenstein: Which is like sending kids of the message from very early on that everyone’s gonna be a beginner. That’s the only place that anyone ever starts is as a beginner. And that’s where the courage really comes from. It’s easy to get out on that basketball court when you’re already like, great at the game or

[00:30:12] Avery Rubenstein: Right. Prodigy is a very rare thing. You know, everyone starts out bad.

[00:30:19] Randi Rubenstein: Yeah. What’s the, hold on. What’s the first line that we just wrote for that kind of tells what the story’s about? . It’s not about achieving the win, the reward is being brave to begin. That’s what it’s about in a nutshell. Um, thumbnail. Um, okay, so let’s see. So,

[00:30:37] Avery Rubenstein: Oh, you know what we can talk about?

[00:30:39] Randi Rubenstein: Hmm. 

[00:30:40] Avery Rubenstein: I, what created the love of reading. I just remembered ’cause last night me and Baxter were reading together. It gave me that warm, fuzzy feeling. And I was, how I fell in love with reading, and what was it about it? 

Because obviously like now it’s easy for me to say, God, it just feels good to be in a world where I’m a fearless assassin or going on these adventures or my, I’m a demigod or whatever. But when I was a kid, it was, I got to be part of adult time. Because at night, after Corey had gone to bed or whatever, I was allowed a certain amount of allotted time to read in bed with mom and dad and Alec. And it was like, I don’t know, always an exciting thing that I get to be with the adults. 

[00:31:27] Randi Rubenstein: Well, it was in our bed. It was, the older kids who were reading to themselves. It was sort of a, was like a special privilege that, and that at that time usually you, you would read to Corey, to put him to sleep. And he preferred having you read to him. So you’d read Corey’s stories and, and then we’d put Corey to bed, and then there was just sort of a, a secret that older kids got to be in the know about.

[00:32:01] Avery Rubenstein: Right? Like Corey couldn’t really know.

[00:32:03] Randi Rubenstein: Because he was already in bed. He was a little kid, but big kid. Big kids got special privileges and the little kids didn’t need to know about that till they became that age where they got the special privileges too. So we weren’t gonna rub it in his face. But it was like we got him down and then you would come quietly sneak into my room. And that’s exactly what Alec did before you started reading.

And so sometimes Alec would even be in there with us and it would be like, me and dad would be like reading our own things on our bed. And then you and Alec would come in, your pj, we weren’t even in our PJs a lot of times. And then you and Alec would come in your PJs and get in the middle and we would all read for like, I don’t know, 20 or 30 minutes or however long. And then you had to go to your bed to go to, to go to sleep.

[00:32:52] Avery Rubenstein: Until 8:30.

[00:32:54] Randi Rubenstein: Until 8:30.

[00:32:55] Avery Rubenstein: Mm-hmm. I remember ’cause if it would go, I would always check the clock ’cause I wanted as much time as possible. And if it was like I saw, it was like 8:31 or 8:32, I was like, I’m getting away with it. They haven’t said anything. 

And y’all would plant books. It was like books a lot of time were my only option. Like this is kind of gross, but on the toilet I had my bin. It was full of books and it was those books, remember we were talking about Who Was Amelia Earhart? Who Was Albert Einstein? And then Berenstain Bear’s Books. There was all sorts of books in there. And so I developed this habit ’cause I had tummy problems, of I would always read on the toilet, which is probably why I spent so much time in there.

And then it eventually got, I mean now you know, I’m on TikTok. But, it got to the point where I’d like bring like my Harry Potter book in there and I’d, I think I’d read on the toilet for like an hour, hour and a half.

[00:33:55] Randi Rubenstein: TMI, y’all. Um, but it started from that, like there was, I mean, from the time y’all were potty training, I remember I had little baskets of books by all the potties.

[00:34:06] Avery Rubenstein: Mm-hmm.

[00:34:07] Randi Rubenstein: And um, and so that was always like, I, so I think we started instilling the habit of, yeah, when you’re just sitting somewhere kind of bored or whatever, guess what? You can always grab a book and entertain yourself.

[00:34:22] Avery Rubenstein: Right.

[00:34:23] Randi Rubenstein: Um, and then I think there was something about the psychology of feeling like you get these big kid privileges. Oh, big kids read, read to themselves. Once you’re a big kid and you’re reading to yourself, you’re reading your own book. We’re also big on, you know, reading series. So, 

[00:34:43] Avery Rubenstein: Mm-hmm.

[00:34:44] Randi Rubenstein: So y’all were like very into your series. If you’re big kid who like has their own series, and I mean this is first grade. First grade was when you read, or was it kindergarten or first grade when you read Magic Treehouse?

[00:34:54] Avery Rubenstein: Okay. Kindergarten was Magic Tree House. First grade was Harry Potter.

[00:34:59] Randi Rubenstein: No, I think second grade was Harry Potter.

[00:35:02] Avery Rubenstein: May maybe,

[00:35:05] Randi Rubenstein: Um,

[00:35:06] Avery Rubenstein: I don’t know. I read those early and I remember that was another psychology thing you would do is. If I needed to get something done or like, it was never, you can’t watch any tv. It was like, gimme the book.

[00:35:18] Randi Rubenstein: Yeah, like the, you’re, we need to focus, we need to get, take care of business. So, you know, after you take care of business, then you can get back to your reading.

[00:35:27] Avery Rubenstein: Mm-hmm.

[00:35:28] Randi Rubenstein: Yeah, it was, it was a get to, it wasn’t a have to, it was a get to, this is part of our nighttime routine. Um, I think another mistake that sometimes parents make, and it’s also well intentioned, good parents read to their children and so they read, they continue reading to their kids. And I think there’s a lot of professionals that recommend doing this. Um, I think they read to their kids till too late. 

Like let your kid develop their own relationship with reading and um, and like reading next to your kid, you know? And maybe every once in a while you’re reading a story together. But if your kid develops a love of reading, they don’t wanna wait for you. They don’t wanna. They don’t wanna be on your schedule. They’re, they’re in a hurry to get to the next chapter to see what’s happening in their story. Like, let it be their experience, and that’s how they also develop agency.

[00:36:28] Avery Rubenstein: And I feel like that was a transition from like, you read me the Berenstain bears until all of a sudden, and then I was making the sound effects and then I was reading the books to you and then it became me reading my own books, you know?

[00:36:39] Randi Rubenstein: Mm-hmm. Yeah, it’s like it’s like an evolution. So it’s like we’re very much doing it together, but then it becomes like, that’s your relationship with your books and I’m having my relationship with my books.

[00:36:51] Avery Rubenstein: Right. I feel like I have a weird memory of getting frustrated by slow turning pages. Like when I was being, I think it was when I was probably at the point where I was ready to read to myself, and you would be reading and it would me be me being like, all right, next page.

[00:37:10] Randi Rubenstein: I think I remember that too. Come on lady.

[00:37:14] Avery Rubenstein: Come on lady.

[00:37:15] Randi Rubenstein: Get with the program.

Um, okay, so there was one other question, that I wanted you to kind of answer. Is, if you think about, you having agency over your work and all the different things. But then when you’re in high school and you see kids that were like, like the really overachiever kids,

[00:37:43] Avery Rubenstein: Mm-hmm.

[00:37:44] Randi Rubenstein: who had had, their parents, you know, sort of instilling that work ethic in them, for years and years and years. Whereas me, I didn’t even look at your freaking report card. Y’all had to tell me about it. Um, which I was so happy for y’all to tell me. And I loved when you, and I would say, what would I say after you would give me, tell me a grade or tell me your grades, what would I say? Do you remember?

[00:38:06] Avery Rubenstein: I don’t remember.

[00:38:07] Randi Rubenstein: How do you feel?

[00:38:09] Avery Rubenstein: Mm-hmm.

[00:38:10] Randi Rubenstein: How do you feel?

[00:38:11] Avery Rubenstein: We 

[00:38:11] Randi Rubenstein: you 

[00:38:11] Avery Rubenstein: were, honestly, we were usually pretty honest. Like if I was a B was like, that could have been an A.

[00:38:17] Randi Rubenstein: How do you feel overall? How do you feel about this report card? Um, and if y’all had, like, gotten, you know, straight A’s, blah, blah, blah, all the great comments, you know, maybe I would say, I bet you feel pretty proud of yourself. Like, it’s pretty amazing. Um, that was a little bit of a source of contention, ’cause you, because you, you were like, just tell me you’re proud of me.

[00:38:45] Avery Rubenstein: Well, yeah, ’cause it, but I also now looking back, like straight A’s, never felt like it was expected, I guess. Of course you want your kid to get good grades, but it felt like every time was like something that I could be like, yeah, I am. I am proud of that, you know? Yeah. Like every time I got straight A’s, it was exciting. Even though it happened often.

[00:39:11] Randi Rubenstein: Mm-hmm. It was exciting. It was exciting to share. It was exciting, I think, for you to be like, yeah, I

[00:39:17] Avery Rubenstein: Even college,

[00:39:18] Randi Rubenstein: Mm-hmm.

[00:39:19] Avery Rubenstein: like I made a 4.0 my whole second half of college. Every time I got an A in every class, I’d be psyched. Psyched.

[00:39:29] Randi Rubenstein: And you’d tell me about it.

[00:39:30] Avery Rubenstein: And I, yeah, and I’d tell you about it. And I wasn’t even thinking about grad school really, so it didn’t even matter,

[00:39:36] Randi Rubenstein: Mm-hmm.

[00:39:37] Avery Rubenstein: but I was still excited.

[00:39:39] Randi Rubenstein: Mm-hmm. Because it just feels good to put in the effort and then do well, and yeah, it feels like an achievement. 

Um, okay. So, but if we think of the kids that, you better get that a or they’re getting paid for A’s, or they’re, you know, in big time trouble if they don’t get like the highest, highest, highest grade and they have, you know, round the clock tutors and just like really, really intense. And a lot of those kids that were like that or not, there weren’t a lot of kids like that. 

But the kids that were like that, a lot of times it did pay off. Like they graduated at the very top of the class. They you know, got into the fancy school where their parents could feel super proud making their social media post and bumper sticker and all that stuff. So my question to you is, Do you think that I should have been a little more psycho?

[00:40:33] Avery Rubenstein: It’s interesting ’cause I, I have a lot of regret for not trying harder because I think just being naturally intelligent, I could have been one of those kids.

[00:40:43] Randi Rubenstein: Mm-hmm.

[00:40:44] Avery Rubenstein: I also always remember feeling bad for them ’cause they always seemed nervous, like really anxious about like, like every test. So anxious. And me being like, we’ve been learning this for a week. Like, what do you like, we know it. Why are you studying all of lunch? I don’t understand. But there were times where I was like, damn, I wish I had those habits of like being a little more psycho about my work. 

And also at the same time, I think socially I’m where I need to be. Um, I had more time for like doing things I enjoyed like sports, like none of those kids ever really played sports. They didn’t have time. All they did was school or like, you know, stupid extracurriculars that seemed really boring and dumb. You know? 

[00:41:38] Randi Rubenstein: No judgment. 

[00:41:40] Avery Rubenstein: No judgment. No judgment go you. But also like, it just didn’t seem entertaining like I got to instead of maybe

[00:41:47] Randi Rubenstein: Like what? What were extracurricular curriculars

[00:41:50] Avery Rubenstein: I just like, like I was in National Honor Society, but like the kids who were like campaigning for president all the time, I was like, you gotta relax. Like they were so into it. It really, it really bothered, it really grinded my gears. I don’t know why. I was like, you’re such a try hard. Um, which good for, they were playing the game. They, you know, they wanted to go to the Harvards. 

I was, I thought about this more, ’cause you and I talked about this recently and I was kinda like, yeah, I wish you had pushed me, but I was the captain of every team that I played because I had the time to devote to it. And I got to like make friends in a lot of different areas because I had time to do that and time to connect with people. 

And I, I was thinking back to the kids in my grade who were, you know, the ones that went to Ivy leagues and worked really hard and I was like, they didn’t really do that. You know, um, so I don’t really regret it. I think also, honestly, the big thing for me was the athletics. I just know I wouldn’t have had time to do that.

[00:42:51] Randi Rubenstein: Yeah, I don’t, I don’t really know I don’t know how I could have shown up more psycho, ’cause it just didn’t go with my philosophy, you know? I just. 

[00:43:02] Avery Rubenstein: I don’t think you needed to.

[00:43:03] Randi Rubenstein: Yeah. I mean, maybe I could have SI I don’t know. I, I feel like it would’ve hurt our relationship. I think it would’ve been like, out of alignment,

[00:43:14] Avery Rubenstein: Yeah, because ’cause even like, even though you’ve never put that pressure on me, I, I do have a, I have weird things about disappointing people and it’s hard for me. It’s really hard for me to disappoint people still. I’m something I’m working on as you know. Um, but like, even like when I did bad in Zen Buddhism, my freshman year of college, I got, I like failed that shit. Zen 

[00:43:40] Randi Rubenstein: You did? 

[00:43:41] Avery Rubenstein: I almost. I was failing the class and I emailed the professor like a plea and I was like, what can I do? And he gave me extra credit and then I got a C. 

Um, but I remember like really being stressed out about telling you and dad about it. ‘Cause I was like, they’re paying for my college education. It was the first time I’ve really thought about money with my education. Um, and I just like really didn’t wanna disappoint you. And I would have to kind of talk to myself and say, when have they ever cared beyond my own disappointment in myself?

[00:44:16] Randi Rubenstein: Mm.

[00:44:17] Avery Rubenstein: Um, and I think if you had been more psycho, yeah, I think it would’ve been damaging.

[00:44:23] Randi Rubenstein: Mm-hmm.

[00:44:24] Avery Rubenstein: Yeah.

[00:44:25] Randi Rubenstein: I mean, you might’ve ended having a more impressive resume. I don’t know. Um, but

[00:44:32] Avery Rubenstein: I’m happy

[00:44:34] Randi Rubenstein: Yeah, I don’t know. I mean, I, I think it would’ve felt too controlling. Like I just don’t believe, I don’t believe in controlling other human beings. Um, and I do think that your job when you’re raising kids is obviously you got a lot of things to teach them and you’re shaping them and, but I just don’t believe that you try to control your own kids and, you know, tell them what they have to do.

You know, it’s kind of like when I hear people saying like, you have to marry someone that’s this religion, and I’m like. I don’t know, that just feels so controlling. I’m like, why don’t you just raise your kids with your values, your work ethic, and you know, by modeling that, and then know that when they get to a certain point, like they’re gonna make most likely similar types of decisions. Like, why don’t

[00:45:32] Avery Rubenstein: Right.

[00:45:32] Randi Rubenstein: you just believe in that and have some faith?

[00:45:35] Avery Rubenstein: Like a rule by emotion. Like when you would ask us like, how does that report card make you feel? It’s a little bit like trust that it doesn’t feel good to get bad grades.

[00:45:46] Randi Rubenstein: Right. You don’t need to rub it in. 

[00:45:48] Avery Rubenstein: You don’t need to rub it in. Just let them sit in the feeling of it not feeling good and they’ll fix it themselves.

[00:45:55] Randi Rubenstein: Well, it’s interesting to me the thing you just said about disappointment and that, you know, like having a hard time thinking that other people might be disappointed in you. Um. But also like if you don’t get the grades that you were hoping for, like having to sit in that disappointment yourself. it also reminds me that recently you were talking about like people who can’t handle disappointment, like people your age that can’t handle disappointment. Like, 

[00:46:24] Avery Rubenstein: With a, a friend who couldn’t get invited to this thing that I was going to, it was like some famous person’s birthday or something, and I tried, of course, it just wasn’t gonna happen, and she couldn’t handle it. She, I mean, it was like, how could I not have this opportunity? I do not understand. And it was so frustrating for me ’cause I was like, sometimes things don’t work out. And it’s like, that’s life. Fucking deal. You know?

[00:46:55] Randi Rubenstein: Mm-hmm. You said something like, people that can’t handle disappointment, it’s so annoying to me.

[00:47:02] Avery Rubenstein: Yeah. Oh my God, I, I mean, I had myself thinking I was in avoidant attachment style. ‘Cause I was like, I cannot deal with that right now. It literally made me shut down, but I was just my boundaries. 

[00:47:14] Randi Rubenstein: Yeah. I was like, yeah, no, I think your boundaries are, I think I, I think this is healthy annoyance and anger. ‘Cause I think she’s testing your boundaries. She’s like badgering you to get the invite when you’ve already said like, it’s not gonna happen. Wish I could it. Didn’t. It didn’t happen. So now you gotta sit with that disappointment sister. And she wouldn’t stop trying to blame you, badger you do whatever. And I was like, yeah, I think you’re annoyed because she’s testing your boundaries. That’s not 

[00:47:41] Avery Rubenstein: She was like mad at me.

[00:47:43] Randi Rubenstein: Yeah.

[00:47:44] Avery Rubenstein: There was like security outside with a list. I was like, girl, I don’t know what to tell you. Like I’m a plus one of a plus one. And it was like calling, texting me, why is this happening? Blah, blah, blah, blah. I was like, dude, you’re ruining my time.

[00:47:59] Randi Rubenstein: I think this is interesting because it’s like if it wasn’t about ever having to sit with your own disappointment. Like I, if you got a bad grade, you had to sit with the feeling of how do you feel about that grade? You know? Do you think it reflected how you did in the class, or do you think that, you know, it was unfair or like, how were you feeling about that? 

And then like, a lot of times you guys would be like, well, I could have tried harder. Remember that one test, like I wanted to go do this other thing and I I kind of dialed it in. I didn’t study as hard as I could have. So, I kind of think it was deserved. But then you’re sitting with that disappointment. You’re, you’ve reflected and now you’re disappointed in yourself. You’re remembering where you didn’t try as hard as you could have.

[00:48:49] Avery Rubenstein: Mm-hmm.

[00:48:50] Randi Rubenstein: And I think people who are just so worried about disappointing the parents and the parents are like that. Your actions young lady, are really disappointing to me. I’m really disappointed in you. It takes it away from the kid. Now your kid is just thinking about disappointing you rather than even having agency over their own disappointment and just sitting with it and, and strengthening that muscle of how to deal with disappointment.

[00:49:18] Avery Rubenstein: Mm-hmm. Such an important skill.

[00:49:21] Randi Rubenstein: Mm-hmm.

[00:49:22] Avery Rubenstein: Yeah.

[00:49:22] Randi Rubenstein: Yeah Okay. We it all the way back around. Um. So I don’t know if that was, um, if we gave you any answers whatsoever, but hopefully you were able to glean some useful, um,

[00:49:38] Avery Rubenstein: The lesson is let your kids, fucking deal with it.

[00:49:41] Randi Rubenstein: Let your kids deal with it. Easier said than done. Yeah, let your kids have their own experience. And also I thought another big point was let your kids sometimes think that you’re a dum dum. There

[00:49:58] Avery Rubenstein: That one’s important.

[00:50:00] Randi Rubenstein: That one’s really important. Um, okay. Thanks for being here.

[00:50:04] Avery Rubenstein: Thanks guys.

[00:50:05] Randi Rubenstein: Bye.

Thanks for listening today, guys. I hope you picked up some tips, tools, maybe some baby steps for creating more balance and boundaries in your life. And I just wanted to let you know, if you want to continue moving the needle forward in creating this for yourself, having a happier household, I want you to go to my website and check out mastermindparenting.com. We have three beginning programs, and if you need some accountability and more support then please look for the one that would be a good fit for you.

And, as always, we’re on all the social channels under Mastermind Parenting, on Instagram it’s mastermind_parenting. And, you know, periodically I do pop up on different Instagram lives, Facebook lives where I give you teaching and coaching and I love engaging with you live to help you help your strong-willed kids so that they can feel better, because when they feel better they do better, and I love, love, love getting to know you guys. 

So thanks for listening. If you like this podcast, please don’t forget to subscribe, rate and review. Super, super appreciative.