320: Do You Have To Play With Your Kids To Be A “Good Mom”? (with Dr. Shawn Hondorp)

[00:00:00] Randi Rubenstein: My name is Randi Rubenstein, and welcome to the Mastermind Parenting Podcast. At Mastermind Parenting, we’re on a mission to support strong-willed kids and the families that love them.  

Hi everyone. I have another great episode with Psychologist and Masterminder, Dr. Shawn Hondorp, which is a conversation that she actually put out on her podcast between the two of us. And I thought I would share it here because people are loving it and so I wanted all of you to have a chance to hear it. Her podcast is called The Innovative Therapist, and this is a little bit about what she says about the conversation that you’re about to hear. 

She says “in this episode of the Innovative Therapist, Randi Rubenstein returns to dive deeper into the concept of Pack Leadership. While exploring how creativity and play can transform our lives. We discuss the importance of leaning into your zone of genius, we break that down, fostering meaningful connections through creativity and how play has reshaped my approach to parenting and work.” 

So when she said, I just have to tell y’all a little bit of the backstory. When she said she wanted to record an episode where we talk about play, I was like, oh, oh brother. Um, I hate all this parenting pressure to play with your kids. A good parent constantly plays with their kids when I didn’t do a whole lot of that. But then she had me listen to, uh, a podcast with Tina Bryson, , she’s a great lady and she is in the parenting space. She’s written a book with Dr. Dan Siegel. Um, and I really like her. I agree with her philosophies. 

And so she said, well just listen to this, because Tina just wrote her most recent book is all about play. And after listening to her, the podcast with Tina, she basically was like, it’s not about playing per se, it’s about having a playful attitude. And I was like, oh, well I did that. And then I didn’t feel so guilty for not playing Barbies or Polly Pockets with my kids. So then I was more open to having this conversation. And I really like the way that Shawn and I talk about creativity and play and how it’s probably different than many of you are thinking about those concepts. So I think you’re really gonna love this episode, so enjoy.

[00:02:34] Dr. Shawn Hondorp: All right. Welcome back to the Innovative Therapist Podcast for part two of who knows how many with Randi Rubenstein. So if you didn’t already get it or listen, last week we talked about this concept of Pack leadership. That has really changed my life, and I think there’s just so many cool ways we can apply this, this concept, and as our role as parents, as leaders in our family, and with our role and many other areas of our life.

So we try to unpack it and define what it was last time. But, so I do recommend going back and listening to that episode first. Um, this episode should stand alone as well, but today I want to dive even further into Pack Leadership. Creativity and Play has, creativity especially has come into, which is like interlinked with play into my orbit and just felt really important to explore for me for, I would say at least a year. Like I’ve been kind of obsessed with it. 

And uh, so I wanna talk about that and, um, touch on today, you know, how we can continue to be stronger Pack Leaders at home, but also how we can bring our unique, um, you know, the concept of Zone of Genius. You and I recently collaborated on a, uh, group where we explored creativity via reading the book, Big Magic and also Zone of Genius, which is a concept from the book, the Big Leap.

So, uh, I think there’s a lot of promise and exciting things as we open up and explore these topics within ourselves that we can bring to our families, but that we can also bring to our work, whether that’s as an entrepreneur or just, um, to our work at a, at another job. So yeah, that’s what we’re gonna be talking about today. So welcome back to the podcast, Randi. 

[00:04:34] Randi Rubenstein: Thank you. , I sent your most recent newsletter to Michaeleen, where you really kind of broke down what we talked about in that podcast. And this is what, you know, this is what we discussed. This is what Pack Leadership, um, means. 

And she responded and said, uh, I love the way Pack Leadership is described here. So I’m gonna take that as I think we accomplished what we wanted to accomplish in the last episode. Michaeleen is um, the author of Hunt Gather Parent, and um, and she’s been on my podcast a lot. And 

[00:05:10] Dr. Shawn Hondorp: Yeah, it’s a big compliment. 

[00:05:12] Randi Rubenstein: But you know what I was thinking, I was thinking, I think even me calling leadership, really it’s just leadership that we’re teaching. 

[00:05:20] Dr. Shawn Hondorp: Mm-hmm. 

[00:05:20] Randi Rubenstein: Um, but instead of calling it leadership and it being like, oh, I’m going to a leadership conference for my job, I’m gonna learn, I’m gonna read a book on leadership. Like, that sounds so adulty and like the bo super boring part of adulting, you know? 

[00:05:38] Dr. Shawn Hondorp: Mm-hmm. 

[00:05:39] Randi Rubenstein: Yeah. Not like the part of adulting that like, you’re old enough to drink and you know, you’re in charge of yourself. But like, yeah, like the lame side of adulting and, and so I think even calling it Pack Leadership is playful.

I think I do it because it feels more fun to me. It feels more playful. It’s like, does this all need to be as serious as a heart attack? Or like, do we have little kids that sometimes, or a lot of the time just won’t, just won’t do the things that we want them to do, just won’t get all their, I mean, I’m thinking about your recent, like snow gear out of the car, that won’t pick up those wrappers and bring ’em in and it’s driving you crazy and you know, it’s a little deal, but it’s completely annoying you and triggering all the disrespect old parts.

[00:06:33] Dr. Shawn Hondorp: Yeah. 

[00:06:33] Randi Rubenstein: You know So when we have little kids that are just being little kids, okay, how do I show up in Pack Leadership in this moment and like, even calling it Pack Leadership is they’re gonna be more responsive when I’m more playful.

But then, and I know this segues into what we wanna talk about, but the pressure to be the mom who plays Barbies all the time and builds Lego shit, you know, is like also triggering the perfectionistic part and that I don’t want to. 

[00:07:06] Dr. Shawn Hondorp: Yeah. 

[00:07:06] Randi Rubenstein: And this is boring me to tears part. right. 

[00:07:09] Dr. Shawn Hondorp: Yeah. 

[00:07:09] Randi Rubenstein: And so I think that, I’m glad that like we can even kind of say like, how do I bring more Pack leadership is really a reminder for, this is a silly term. And even just like calling it this in my own head sort of brings some levity to this situation. And that’s kind of, that’s really gonna be a big part of the solution of this situation, a kid that just won’t. 

[00:07:35] Dr. Shawn Hondorp: Yes. Right? Yeah. You, you had playfulness. Maybe you knew, but maybe you didn’t even realize you were bringing the playfulness to it. And, 

[00:07:43] Randi Rubenstein: No, I didn’t. I didn’t, yeah. I didn’t realize it. And, and, and the podcast that you sent me, and I was listening to it, I was like, oh, I was super playful. I, I didn’t wanna sit and play Polly Pockets. And I didn’t, most of the time when they were like, well, you play, no, I, I just, I don’t want to. And you don’t have to do that either. Um 

[00:08:10] Dr. Shawn Hondorp: Mm-hmm. 

[00:08:10] Randi Rubenstein: But, but what I realize is, is no, I was playful all the time. Right. And no, I didn’t wanna sit and play figurines. Um, but I did do a lot of the things that she talked about in that podcast, which is like, narrate their experience or sit and watch them playing figurines and like be really curious about the figurines. Like, really, I just want, I just enjoyed them, but I didn’t have to, like I was saying, oh, I didn’t play with my kids. I think I played with them all the time by just being playful. 

[00:08:42] Dr. Shawn Hondorp: Right, right. And just being a fly on the wall on their lives, which you still do now, which you get the privilege to do now. But what happened, and so to bring the listeners in this really, just this weekend, actually, just yesterday, we’re recording this on a Monday. I was in the grocery store and I was listening to another podcast, well, actually I was listening to a coaching call replay, and that ended and this podcast randomly came on. I never listened to this podcast, but it was, you know how they give the little clips at the beginning and this snippet was something, it was about Dr. Tina Bryson, I have to look down ’cause I’m still, her work’s new to me. And she was talking about her new book, the Way of Play, which I haven’t read yet, but now I’m interested. And basically saying like, get down, immerse yourself in your kid’s play. 

And I got like pissed. I’m like, no, you know, like Randi told me I didn’t have to, and 

[00:09:38] Randi Rubenstein: He gave me, 

[00:09:40] Dr. Shawn Hondorp: I have like the people pleaser and the like, perfectionist mom that was like, no, I’m not doing that anymore. I’m listening to my body and I don’t want to. And I was like, don’t tell me what to do. 

But I, I listened through enough to. I was intrigued enough. It didn’t sound judgy, but it still activated my defensive parts. And then I ended up listening to this podcast and like getting really teary because I was like, wait, there might be a way that actually does interest me where I could play with, you know, my daughter and Barbies is the more recent, just this weekend. Oh. It was sort of like, yeah, I, I believe she was sort of saying to, uh, her grandma, like, my mom doesn’t, I don’t know. I wasn’t there, but like, my mom doesn’t wanna play this with me, which is true. 

And, and I was just like, okay, well that’s all right. Like, I’m allowed to be the mom that doesn’t, but this gave me some hope of like, I actually would love to play with her.

[00:10:39] Randi Rubenstein: Yeah. 

[00:10:40] Dr. Shawn Hondorp: In a way that allows me to deeply connect with her, even though she’s, you know, as you know, she’s pretty, like willing to talk about her feelings, but not all kids are. And sometimes you, she just hits a wall. She’s like, I’m done talking about this. You know, like whether it’s friend drama at school or things like that.

So I had this like, so I shared it with, with you obviously, and just filling the listeners in and I was like, this gave me so much hope. But also I was sad ’cause I was like, oh, ’cause I had shut myself off to that ’cause be before I was just doing it in a way that wasn’t fulfilling at all. Right. I was just like, uh, do, do, do. Like, here’s Barbie says this and I just, so I got bored so quick. And they can feel that as we’ve talked about. So 

[00:11:27] Randi Rubenstein: They can, you can, they, they, I mean, even Avery said to me recently, who’s my 23-year-old daughter, like, she was like, yeah, I loved watching movies with you and I, I’ve always loved watching shows or movies with you, but the ones that you’re actually enjoying.

[00:11:45] Dr. Shawn Hondorp: Mm-hmm. 

[00:11:45] Randi Rubenstein: She said like, she could tell when I was just sort of like going through the motions, even like watching a show together, but it was like something that I didn’t really wanna watch. They can tell when we’re faking it. 

So. So like the mom who seems, she’s like, oh sure, let’s play Moana again. Like, don’t waste your time because your kid. 

[00:12:08] Dr. Shawn Hondorp: Mm-hmm. 

[00:12:08] Randi Rubenstein: They’re onto you. Nobody’s that good of an actor and they feel your energy. So if you don’t wanna play Moana, don’t freaking play Moana. 

[00:12:16] Dr. Shawn Hondorp: Right, 

[00:12:16] Randi Rubenstein: Right. 

[00:12:17] Dr. Shawn Hondorp: Yeah. Don’t do that. And then yet there might be, and this podcast only gave me a couple of ideas of how I’ve already used a couple of the ideas I learned, uh, heard on the podcast literally this morning, and it went very well.

Um, I literally just, and we’ll link the podcast for anyone who wants to listen to it. There’s, you know, I think she’s been promoting her new book, so she’s on other podcasts as well. But, um, that’s just one, it’s like we can actually find ways to do this in a way that’s enjoyable potentially. And then it allows us as adults to reconnect with play in a way. 

And, we were saying last time, like deep down, all of us want this deeper connection with our kids or the people in our life that really matter. Like going back to what we talked about last time with like Mel Robbins, I believe just ’cause I had a period of like workaholism, like you were saying, like, oh she, she was, she could have done like zoom or these different innovative ways to, to be at home or FaceTime. But I think if she knew she was work, like workaholism is a way to numb, right? 

[00:13:24] Randi Rubenstein: Yeah. 

[00:13:24] Dr. Shawn Hondorp: And it’s like when I was work doing workaholism, it was ’cause this 

[00:13:28] Randi Rubenstein: I’ve been in those phases too. Me. Yeah. Yeah. Same. 

[00:13:32] Dr. Shawn Hondorp: And even yesterday I was listening to this podcast and I’m just getting obsessed with this, these concepts. And I’m like prepping for this meeting, which could have looked like workaholism. My kids were not around. But really it’s ’cause I’m obsessed with learning how to connect with them. 

Like, so I think our work, not always, but when we follow our interests, like it just shows us what we actually deeply want, and like, I think my work’s been that way for a long time. Like I’m obsessed with figuring out how to heal myself so that I can better have what I want in my life, which ultimately comes down to like better relationships, right?

[00:14:06] Randi Rubenstein: Yeah. And makes you better at your work. 

[00:14:08] Dr. Shawn Hondorp: Yeah. Bonus, right? Win win. 

[00:14:11] Randi Rubenstein: look, you become obsessed with learning, right? 

[00:14:15] Dr. Shawn Hondorp: Mm-hmm. 

[00:14:15] Randi Rubenstein: And so I was listening to, um, 10% Happier podcast. Have you ever listened to that one 

[00:14:20] Dr. Shawn Hondorp: A little. Yeah. Dan Harris, I’ve heard of it. He’s good. I probably listen to one or two. He’s, yep. 

[00:14:24] Randi Rubenstein: he just had, uh, Guy Raz on, who is the guy who did, his podcast is How I Built This, which is all about, it’s a great, great podcast for anyone who is an entrepreneur or starting your own business or, or runs your own business. Um, and it’s just stories of people who’ve done it. 

Um, and if anyone’s never listened to How I Built This and you’re, you know, running your own business or thinking about running your own business, um, start with the very early episode and you’ll have to scroll, scroll back with the Sarah Blakely episode. She’s the founder of Spanx, and she is, it’s a great, great episode. 

[00:15:08] Dr. Shawn Hondorp: Yeah. 

[00:15:08] Randi Rubenstein: So anyway, How I Built This is an example of learning through play, right? Yeah. Because they, he’s Guy Raz teaches all these, all these lessons, but it’s all through someone’s story. 

[00:15:28] Dr. Shawn Hondorp: Mm-hmm. 

[00:15:28] Randi Rubenstein: So when we’re listening it doesn’t feel like you’re listening to a business podcast because you’re listening to a story and it’s fascinating and there’s a whole, you know, how many times they failed and all the different things. And he’s very engaging. 

You know, he worked for NPR for a long time, kind of like Michaeleen, right?

[00:15:47] Dr. Shawn Hondorp: Yeah. 

[00:15:47] Randi Rubenstein: They know how to like get the interview and so they know how to engage you and um, and it’s a creative way to engage you and to, and to learn through play as an adult. 

 They were talking about work life balance and um, and Guy said, you know, it’s when you love what you do so much, there is a crossover between work and home. He goes, so like, my family just went, you know, we just took the kids and we went on this, you know, two week trip to Italy or whatever. He’s like, and I wrote a newsletter while I was there. Um, all of a sudden I’m, I come up with an idea and I, you know, send an email to my team, you know, share that idea.

[00:16:35] Dr. Shawn Hondorp: Yep. 

[00:16:35] Randi Rubenstein: He goes, but also, like for years, like when I was traveling to this city or that city, presenting at a conference, a lot of times my family would come with me and then we’d turn it into a weekend. 

[00:16:47] Dr. Shawn Hondorp: Mm-hmm. 

[00:16:47] Randi Rubenstein: You know, he goes, so there’s a lot of crossover. You know, I don’t really work in a traditional way. There is a lot of crossover between work and home and, um, and my family is incorporated into what I do. And Dan Harris, who runs a podcast was saying like, yeah, me too. So I think it’s not as clear, as like for any of us who are obsessed and watching season two of Severance, um, which is on Apple Podcast, which is a real, it’s such a smart, incredible, I’m obsessed with it. We’re obsessed with it. it’s All about work life balance. 

[00:17:28] Dr. Shawn Hondorp: Mm-hmm. 

[00:17:29] Randi Rubenstein: And your personal life and your work life and can you sever one from the other? And I think if you are doing this kind of work, like what we’re doing and what a lot of probably your listeners are doing, um, I don’t think it is black and white. I don’t think it is so clear. 

[00:17:48] Dr. Shawn Hondorp: Right. Well, and I think as we, I think that’s why you, you’re the one who introduced Zone of Genius to me, uh, however many years ago. And. That concept has been so pivotal to me because the more you lean into your zone of genius, like it doesn’t usually feel like work at all. It feels like play, it feels like joy. It feels life giving to you, and it makes you better at your work. and it also makes you better at, at, for me as a mom, I think, because, and that’s why like on Fridays home with Will, I will do, you know, an hour podcast, our last one we recorded because it’s very energizing to me.

I have another episode we can link to about where we kind of break down zones of excellence and genius. But I mean, first of all, it’s really normalized to just hate your work or at least just tolerate it, right? 

[00:18:45] Randi Rubenstein: Mm-hmm. 

[00:18:46] Dr. Shawn Hondorp: And sometimes that’s zone of competence or excellence where it’s like, it’s fine or you like it well enough or you feel accomplished after you do it. But zone of genius is a whole nother thing. And that is, I think it’s really rare for people to be operating in their zone of genius for their, at their work. You know, I think it, it happens whether you’re an entrepreneur or not. When you’re an entrepreneur, you have more freedom. But we’ve all been conditioned to like, just grind it out and do you know, I was just, it’s 

[00:19:19] Randi Rubenstein: Like school. It’s like nobody, it’s like you, sorry, you gotta go to school. And it’s like, wait a minute, kids love, human beings love learning. 

[00:19:31] Dr. Shawn Hondorp: Yes. 

[00:19:32] Randi Rubenstein: Why do, I mean, why do so many of us get through school? And I mean, I rarely hear anyone say, oh my gosh, I learned so much in school. I loved school. Like, it was like 

[00:19:45] Dr. Shawn Hondorp: I loved school, but I didn’t learn like, I loved school ’cause I was obsessed with like, I mean I was just, I was obsessed with like, finding my schedule. I actually did have some good classes in undergrad and grad school ’cause I worked really hard to find the best professors who were actually engaging through story. So that’s part of it. 

But yeah, I mean, I, I didn’t read on like, books for fun during school. 

[00:20:14] Randi Rubenstein: Right. 

[00:20:14] Dr. Shawn Hondorp: Right. Like, it zapped my love of learning to a pretty big extent. And it had me, yeah. I was always exploring these side topics, like during grad school. So I was like, none of this is helping me personally, so I’m gonna keep like, 

[00:20:29] Randi Rubenstein: But even if you think about like, as a kid, elementary school.

[00:20:32] Dr. Shawn Hondorp: Yeah. 

[00:20:32] Randi Rubenstein: I loved, I loved certain grades in elementary school. 

[00:20:39] Dr. Shawn Hondorp: Mm-hmm. 

[00:20:40] Randi Rubenstein: And um, but it was always about who my teacher was. 

[00:20:43] Dr. Shawn Hondorp: Yeah. 

[00:20:43] Randi Rubenstein: And I loved, like, I remember learning to read. And I remember loving learning to read. I remember like, like, it was like the whole world opened up for me. 

[00:20:56] Dr. Shawn Hondorp: Mm-hmm. 

[00:20:57] Randi Rubenstein: And, and then in third and fourth grade I had kind of shitty teachers. And, I didn’t love learning that much at all. and then in fifth grade I had this just fantastic superstar teacher, and she loved me and I loved learning again. Right. 

[00:21:15] Dr. Shawn Hondorp: Yeah. 

[00:21:15] Randi Rubenstein: By the time I got to, like junior high and high school. There was very few teachers that were truly engaging it. It was mostly just getting through it and um, and doing what you had to do to get through it. and I mean, I was always a good student, but I wasn’t like, like for me to be an adult and for the last 25 years to be obsessed with learning new things, I love learning.

[00:21:44] Dr. Shawn Hondorp: Yep. 

[00:21:45] Randi Rubenstein: Like I started off school, loving it, and then it was gone. You know, I just was going through the motions and getting the thing done. 

[00:21:54] Dr. Shawn Hondorp: Right. Well, yeah, and it’s funny ’cause I’m like, oh right. Elementary, like all those early years feel like so long ago and they were in some ways, but. I did not love those years. Mostly ’cause I had a lot of anxiety, a lot of social anxiety. Like that just, it just ruined all of it for me. But also because school isn’t designed to like foster that love of learning. So my, I loved college and grad school aspects of it because I had freedom and autonomy to choose and curate some of the things I was actually interested in.

[00:22:27] Randi Rubenstein: Mm-hmm. 

[00:22:28] Dr. Shawn Hondorp: But there was so much of it that throughout the whole thing, focus on grades. Like zaps your LI mean, I was obsessed with just getting good grades, you know? And 

[00:22:39] Randi Rubenstein: Right. But it was a goal and it, it probably motivated you and um, yeah. There was something in, in that for you, right. Like 

[00:22:48] Dr. Shawn Hondorp: Yeah. But like, I think both of us, you know. I’ve watched you and really in, I mean, I use Voxer for some of my communities now. Like the watched you, the way that you’ve designed your business and operating in your zone of genius and watching that, and it’s been like a model for like what’s possible, right? Like I know that you show up on Voxer with us, you know, the, the moms and or parents in your community because you want to, right? And we can feel that, right? And that’s a gift to us. that I, 

[00:23:23] Randi Rubenstein: Yeah, it doesn’t feel like a job. It’s not, it’s, it’s like the kind of thing that, like I heard an actor saying this recently, do, do all these directors know that we would actually do this for free? Like it’s ridiculous that I get paid to to play and to do the thing I love. And that’s how I feel like when I show up with you guys on Voxer or on my coaching calls, like, if you guys would show up and meet me here, like the truth is I would do this for free, I love it so much. 

I’m not doing it for free because I know that I’ve had to be coached on all that and I would used to do way too many things for free and my time is valuable and it just builds resentment. So we’re not doing that. But the, but I love it that much. Yeah, that I would do it for free and that does feel like play. That does feel like I’m in my zone of genius a lot of the time. 

And I think it’s why play, play with your kids? You should, you know, you wanna be the kind of parent that plays with your kids and why it’s so loaded and why it can conjure up so much guilt in us is because we lost our own sense of play so long ago and we were just li we lived by the have toos.

Um, and so now to have this extra pressure of, oh great, so I don’t, I’m checking off all of these good parent boxes, you know, I’m feeding ’em. The good stuff. I’m like, I buy some organic things, you know, I, you they get the rest that they need. We’re doing all the basic care, their school, their education, their clothing, their blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And now on top of it, I have to fucking play with them too. Are you kidding me? Like when like it’s just more pressure and it’s because, and I think why it feels like so much pressure is because there’s this very big backstory to all that guilt, right? 

[00:25:24] Dr. Shawn Hondorp: Oh yeah, yeah, absolutely. And it’s like, I think what I’ve opened up to increasingly over the past, like year plus is just, there’s so much opportunity. And even like listening to that podcast yesterday, I was like, oh my gosh. Like I can prioritize connecting to my kids in the way that feels good to both of us. And there’s so much hope in that. 

Like even yesterday. I was thinking about like the way we do bedtime and, uh, Claire has been reading the Babysitter’s Club graphic novel books on Kindle, and I was like, but the, we switch off bedtime. So I would like read and then I don’t do bedtime reading with her till two nights. And I’m like, why? She stays up a little later. Like, I can prioritize reading with her every night, you know? ’cause that sounds really fun to me. 

[00:26:14] Randi Rubenstein: Mm-hmm. 

[00:26:14] Dr. Shawn Hondorp: Like, I actually really want to. Right. And then we can keep going with the same story instead of like, now dad’s reading it and there’s, it’s so simple. But 

[00:26:24] Randi Rubenstein: Mm-hmm.

[00:26:25] Dr. Shawn Hondorp: Like, you’ve been talking recently on your podcast about learning through story and connecting through story, whether that’s like a TV show or a book, and that’s an exciting avenue, I guess I just feel like I’m, I’m imagining I’m not the only one where you just don’t even think about it. 

[00:26:42] Randi Rubenstein: Right. 

[00:26:42] Dr. Shawn Hondorp: You just go through the shoulds and you’re like, well, I guess I have to do whatever book my kid wants to, to do. 

[00:26:48] Randi Rubenstein: Right? 

[00:26:49] Dr. Shawn Hondorp: And, and like what? Not listening to your body. And for my son, it’s, he and I, I think I told you a couple months ago, he and I started telling what we call Henry Stories. And it came out of just this improvisation, I think it was this, like, I’m leaning more into play. Henry’s stories are stories essentially about him. 

[00:27:07] Randi Rubenstein: Mm-hmm. 

[00:27:08] Dr. Shawn Hondorp: But we name him Henry. Right. And like last night, I just came up with this story about, um, Henry being nine years old and getting a bunny and like all the things that like Henry had to do before he could get a bunny, like show he’s responsible. Like all these things that I want, right? Like cleaning up their stuff and like showing that they’d be ready to take care of a pet. So I’m infusing these like lessons and he was like obsessed with it. 

And then I made, I was actually like being kind of funny. I don’t consider my, I’m like, who am I? You know? And I think I. 

[00:27:43] Randi Rubenstein: You’re so funny. You have great comedic timing and I love that. You don’t, you are not even aware of it. I’m like, 

[00:27:50] Dr. Shawn Hondorp: Well, I appreciate that. But it’s also like, I, like many of the therapists in these meetups I’ve been doing, they’re like, I’m not creative. I just came here ’cause I wanna network. And like, they’re like, I don’t know what you’re talking about. Creativity. I’m like, that’s been me. You know? I don’t think I could make up a story about a, a fun, a bunny named Mr. Fluffernutter. I think that’s pretty funny. 

[00:28:13] Randi Rubenstein: Mm-hmm. 

[00:28:13] Dr. Shawn Hondorp: I was like, where’d that come from? Because I think I’m opening up these areas of my brain that have been closed off for so long and it’s been really fun.

[00:28:21] Randi Rubenstein: And you’re you’re honoring your own zone of genius. Like you’re a teacher. many of us have that sort of instinct where we wanna teach them all the things we 

[00:28:33] Dr. Shawn Hondorp: Mm-hmm. 

[00:28:34] Randi Rubenstein: I want them to know these things. I want them to learn ’em earlier than I did. And yeah. And I don’t wanna just teach it to them. I wanna teach it to other people. Like when we learn something, you know, you’re kind of a born teacher in whatever capacity you’re teaching. If like you learn something or you hear something and then you like really wanna have a deep conversation with someone else about it, you wanna teach it to them, you wanna unpack it with someone else, you wanna share this new wisdom with someone else.

[00:29:05] Dr. Shawn Hondorp: Mm-hmm. 

[00:29:06] Randi Rubenstein: Um, that is just a sign that part of your zone of genius is that you’re a teacher. 

[00:29:12] Dr. Shawn Hondorp: Right. 

[00:29:12] Randi Rubenstein: And, um, and you wanna teach these concepts. And so, quite often it’s like we want to teach our kids these concepts, but because we were conditioned in traditional school, most of us. And it was a slog and it wasn’t engaging and it was a lot of worksheets and it was Bueller, Bueller, and it didn’t involve a lot of play. our creativity and our playfulness and our, you know, sort of brainstorming ways to engage another person. We don’t equate it as, as going with teaching these lessons. 

So we, I mean that’s part of the reason why Avery and I started, my, me and my daughter started writing these, uh, children’s books and, um, and they’re in development right now. But that’s really my idea is I’m covering all these concepts in these children’s books. We are covering all these concepts about empathy, about how to have a productive conversation about a little kid that’s living their life in this angry, defensive place. Um, but as my daughter was very specific, no psychological words, no major feeling words. We are never saying the word empathy. 

[00:30:24] Dr. Shawn Hondorp: Mm-hmm. 

[00:30:25] Randi Rubenstein: We are just telling a story that embodies empathy and um, but we don’t have to label everything and, you know, force it down these kids’ throats like medicine. Let’s just teach them the concepts through story. Right? 

[00:30:46] Dr. Shawn Hondorp: Yeah. 

[00:30:46] Randi Rubenstein: And I think, you know, and so that’s the point is like, let’s be more creative. And I think for those of us where we’re like, I’m, but I’m not creative and I don’t even know how, I think it’s like honoring that natural teacher in you, which is like, I like to teach stuff, so it’s okay to have an agenda because the agenda’s not gonna be like, so now let me tell you about this con, you know it’s not lecture style.

[00:31:14] Dr. Shawn Hondorp: Yeah. 

[00:31:15] Randi Rubenstein: It’s like if all of a sudden you have this agenda of I’m gonna be able to teach will about responsibility, and he keeps saying he wants a bunny, but guess what? If he wants a bunny, so instead of saying, Hey, well this is the thing. If we get the bunny, then you’re gonna have to be the one that cleans out the cage and you’re gonna have to da. Instead, all of a sudden we’ve got Henry doing that for you. 

[00:31:37] Dr. Shawn Hondorp: Yeah. 

[00:31:37] Randi Rubenstein: And Will’s into it. He’s listening, he’s engaged his, his prefrontal cortex is online. He’s absorbing all of these lessons, like it’s so much more effective. 

[00:31:48] Dr. Shawn Hondorp: Yeah, you feel more effective. And that’s the other strategy I did from the podcast is, so he was, he almost blew up at me, but he didn’t, ’cause I reminded him, he wanted me to tell him another story and he came up with an idea where Mr. Fluffernutter drank a potion and then grew big. And then he had, um, then he talked and I was like, that sounds like an amazing next story. We’ll do that tomorrow. And he’s like, well, I’m gonna forget. And I said, I’ll write it down. 

So I wrote it down and instead of doing it the next night, I used the podcast idea, which was, her idea was like, if you are trying to get your kids to do something that they don’t wanna do, like get into the car to be like, oh, there’s this really good story about these three squirrels. Like, let me tell you. 

So I just, I didn’t do that exactly, but I just was like, guys, ’cause they needed to brush their teeth and get ready this morning, I’m like, I gotta, I gotta tell you about Mr. Fluffernutter. So I told volume two about during, um, teeth, and it was really smooth. Claire was already dressed, so we just did teeth together. And I was like, okay, we gotta hear the second part of the story. Come into Will’s room and got him dressed. And I was, I felt pretty, I felt like a badass, you know? It was fun. 

[00:33:00] Randi Rubenstein: Yeah, it’s like a total badass, right? I mean, you know what else she was talking about that I th I realized was playful? Like, I remember years ago, I mean years ago, like Alec was a baby and y’all, he’s 26 now, and I would take him to Gymboree. So he’s probably now, you know. 18 months or two years old. And he goes through that phase where, um, they don’t wanna be buckled in their car seat or they don’t wanna go or whatever, and they don’t wanna go. And then you put ’em in the car seat and it’s like a fight and they won’t let you buckle ’em. And you’re getting like a, you know, foot in the face and they’re like kicking you and you’re like, ow. So no fun. 

So I remember Gymboree, like, it was a goofy little song and it was, and I, you know, whatever, whatever the tune was. And next thing you know, I adopted it to every time we were going to get in the car and I would pick him up, I would just sing this goofy little song. We’re going for a ride. We’re going for a ride. And I would like put him in the seat right at that moment. And then I would say, so sit right back and I’d make eye contact and then I’d do the top buckle and buckle up. And then it had, the bottom uncle had one and then two we’re going for a ride. 

Every single time. I can’t even tell you how long. And then when Avery was that age, Alec would sing along. You know, it was like all of a sudden it wasn’t a power struggle anymore. And it was like, you know, I didn’t really have to rack my brain. It was just like, what can I put to work to a little bit of music? Oh, I’ll just use that annoying Gymboree tune, you know? And, and so it’s like, yeah, we’re wanting to teach them things. We do have an agenda. We want to get them in the freaking car without having a foot in my face. 

[00:34:54] Dr. Shawn Hondorp: Mm-hmm.

[00:34:54] Randi Rubenstein: You know, kicking me. 

[00:34:56] Dr. Shawn Hondorp: Yeah. 

[00:34:56] Randi Rubenstein: Um, and so it’s a creative way of, of, of getting through all these little moments that can be stressful and exhaust the shit out of you. 

[00:35:07] Dr. Shawn Hondorp: Yeah. That’s cool. And I mean, it sounds like it was kind of like intuitive for you and, it was not, none of this has been particularly intuitive for me. Maybe there’s aspects of it that I’m not thinking of, but 

[00:35:19] Randi Rubenstein: I don’t think it’s that. I think it was, I think what’s intuitive for me is I think I’m a problem solver in the sense of, I, I mean, look, the more I learn about attachment and I had crazy self-reliance because I had to, you know, so growing up. if there was a problem or if something was stressful, like there was no one helping me. and if I actually asked for help, I was gonna experience a lot of gaslighting, or I was gonna be, feel embarrassed or ashamed or feel like a pain in the ass. 

[00:35:59] Dr. Shawn Hondorp: Mm-hmm. 

[00:35:59] Randi Rubenstein: So I had to develop that self-reliance from such a young age. So I think more than anything, it was me just being like, yeah, this sucks. I, I can’t be fighting with a kid, ev uh, you know, every time I need to go get in the car. And so I think it was, it was probably self-preservation more than anything else. 

[00:36:18] Dr. Shawn Hondorp: Yeah. And just like trying different things until one works.

[00:36:21] Randi Rubenstein: Yeah. Like just throwing a ton of spaghetti at the wall. Like, this sucks and I can’t be fighting with him. This is annoying and awful, so nobody else is going to figure it out for me. Like, I gotta figure it out. 

And then when I started, you know, reading books and, and there was no podcast way back then, or listening or learning any way I could. I mean, I think that’s why I had such a thirst and a hunger for it was because no one’s coming to save me. And now there’s people and they put this information out and I can like learn and see what, so I tried lots of different things. Um, 

[00:36:56] Dr. Shawn Hondorp: Yeah. 

[00:36:56] Randi Rubenstein: But ultimately I think that’s what I think Pack leadership is. Oh, I can figure things out and also I don’t have to reinvent the wheel. 

[00:37:09] Dr. Shawn Hondorp: Mm-hmm. 

[00:37:09] Randi Rubenstein: Like, there’s other people who have done it. So I’m gonna find the people that I agree with. Right. I’m going to, I’m gonna be well sourced, and then I’m gonna, and I may not agree with everything, and I’ll just pick and choose, and then I’m going to grab this tune from Gymboree, and then I’m gonna come up with this story idea where I totally get to have an agenda for once and teach through story. Right? Like, and I’m a born teacher, so of course I wanna teach through story and look at me. I’m such a badass. I’m being so playful. You know? 

[00:37:42] Dr. Shawn Hondorp: Yeah. 

[00:37:42] Randi Rubenstein: Like, I think that is, Pack Leadership is also like, yeah, I can figure this out and I don’t have to do this all by myself. And I kind of feel like a badass doing it.

[00:37:53] Dr. Shawn Hondorp: Yeah. It’s like fun. It’s fun to, I mean, I think that’s what my hope people will take over, take from this conversation and these different conversations is like I, the more that I’ve explored creativity through dance, which has really been like, a four year thing because I started beginner tap ’cause I’d never tap dance before for three years.

But then this past year, like I’ve really dove into contemporary dance and it’s been just everything. Like I feel like something is happening in my brain that is just, I mean clearly it’s lighting me up, but, but then there’s all these other little trails I can go down. Like re-engaging with story and reading. It’s been a big thing for me. 

[00:38:35] Randi Rubenstein: Can I just pause for a second in terms of the creativity? ’cause you know what helped me so much with like understanding it more from even the way you were explaining it and how impactful it had been, it’s been for you with the dance is like as a non dancer, when you started talking about dance. Like, all I could imagine was like Solid Gold. Like, I like, like, you know, like, 

[00:39:01] Dr. Shawn Hondorp: Like a drill team? 

[00:39:03] Randi Rubenstein: Yes. Like, I, like, I was like, oh, so people in adulthood who re you know, reintroduce themselves to dance, it’s because they were like, the kind of people that were on like Fame, like at the, you know, like, 

[00:39:18] Dr. Shawn Hondorp: Yeah. Oh yeah. 

[00:39:19] Randi Rubenstein: And so it’s like, so then when you showed us that video that was like, not perfect and it involved like some weird folding chair and you were just having fun and it was like, 

[00:39:29] Dr. Shawn Hondorp: I totally messed up. Yeah. 

[00:39:30] Randi Rubenstein: Yeah. 

[00:39:30] Dr. Shawn Hondorp: And I totally forgot what I was doing. Yeah. 

[00:39:32] Randi Rubenstein: Yeah. And it wasn’t like, you know, it wasn’t like Fame. It was, it was just like fun and playful and it wasn’t like, oh, and now she’s going to go and be a professional dancer on tv. It’s like, no. She’s just gonna go to this dance class and really enjoy herself. 

Like there was something about like seeing that video that I think would open it up for more people to realize like, this doesn’t mean you need to go, if you re-explore something like dance or ice skating or something that you loved as a kid, it doesn’t mean that now you need to go and like be a professional dancer or 

[00:40:10] Dr. Shawn Hondorp: Mm-hmm.

[00:40:10] Randi Rubenstein: Be a professional ice skater. Like you can just like take an adult dance class and mess up and have a good time. 

[00:40:18] Dr. Shawn Hondorp: Yeah. And just play and have fun. Yeah. I mean, because for me, because my, well the first three years I did it, I did tap, which was totally new to me and I don’t think, well, maybe I shared a video of that at the retreat, but 

[00:40:30] Randi Rubenstein: I think so. Yeah, I think so. 

[00:40:31] Dr. Shawn Hondorp: Yeah. That, and that was my third year and at that year I had learned to like, have fun with tap. The first two, I was like, this is so awkward. Like, adults are on stage doing these like tap dances and it’s mostly a child recital. Like it’s, there’s like one or two adult classes, so it’s just like, this is uncomfortable. Um, but it’s so fun and there’s a performance aspect that is fun to me. Like I do like to perform and kind of show off. And I think I’m owning that in a non performative, not prove-y way, but just like, Hey, look it, look what? And that’s, 

[00:41:05] Randi Rubenstein: Yes. That’s what it felt like. And it felt like it was almost like you were inviting us to share in your joy.

[00:41:12] Dr. Shawn Hondorp: Yes. 

[00:41:12] Randi Rubenstein: And, and wasn’t that tap recital was, wasn’t there like a much older lady? 

[00:41:18] Dr. Shawn Hondorp: Yeah, Jeanie. Yeah, 

[00:41:19] Randi Rubenstein: Yeah, 

[00:41:20] Dr. Shawn Hondorp: Yeah. We danced a Crazy Train and she did the air guitar for like a full eight count. Yeah. She love, I mean, she loves it. She embodies like she just enjoys it, right? She’s not proving anything she’s, she’ll say like, 

[00:41:36] Randi Rubenstein: I felt the joy. Mm-hmm. 

[00:41:38] Dr. Shawn Hondorp: Yeah. She’ll, she’ll say like, I’m not that good, but I love it. You know? And she’s just living her best life on stage and it’s fun to be with her. Right. And then, and one of the other, that year, actually one of the other dancers, she also loves it. And I was asking her, I was like, do you get nervous? ‘Cause I get so nervous. Because I mean, yes, you’re on stage and so of course it makes sense to get nervous. But I was just had this like performative anxiety of like perfectionism, right? That was always what kept me from loving, I loved dance as a kid. I loved it always, but there was always this stiffness, this perfectionism, this, how do I look to other people?

[00:42:16] Randi Rubenstein: Mm-hmm. 

[00:42:16] Dr. Shawn Hondorp: That did take the joy away from it. And that part of me on that particular third year of recital that I showed you all, actually I showed you the dress rehearsal, but I was able to, that part relaxed, and it was actually by chance because we were supposed to go fifth and we went fourth. And so I didn’t have the buildup of the song before to like get nervous. It was just like, you’re on. And I was like, okay, we’re on. And I didn’t have time to get nervous. So I’ve never had more fun on stage with that dance and that recital and, and I actually did mess up, but who cares? 

[00:42:53] Randi Rubenstein: Yeah. It was palpable. It was so much fun. And it was so much fun to watch, and for all the scientists listening, or the left brain people who are like, yeah, yeah, this all sounds good, but it’s kind of a little too, I don’t know, fluffy or esoteric or whatever.

[00:43:10] Dr. Shawn Hondorp: Mm-hmm. 

[00:43:11] Randi Rubenstein: there is science. Don’t ask me to quote what the studies are. Y’all, y’all are the people that are gonna go do that. Um, but there is science that the part of your brain that gets lit up when you’re anxious, right. It cannot coexist with the part of your brain that’s lit up when you’re in creativity.

[00:43:34] Dr. Shawn Hondorp: Mm-hmm. 

[00:43:35] Randi Rubenstein: And in play and in playfulness. 

[00:43:38] Dr. Shawn Hondorp: Yep. 

[00:43:38] Randi Rubenstein: So, anxiety when you start to like, it’s like if all of a sudden you were on the stage, you had like had another song and you could have allowed yourself to like, think of all the what ifs and all the things you’re scared of and all the things that might go wrong. Right. And you had a whole other song to, allow that to kind of build and, and brew. Um. As soon as you get out on that stage, what you experience is, is you start to go into the fun and the joy and the playfulness and the creativity. 

[00:44:11] Dr. Shawn Hondorp: Mm-hmm. 

[00:44:12] Randi Rubenstein: And so then that anxiety dissipates, right? 

[00:44:17] Dr. Shawn Hondorp: Mm-hmm. 

[00:44:18] Randi Rubenstein: Yeah.

Um, but the thing that they realize is that, you know, anxiety will cut down, will, it will cancel out creativity, right? So if you’re feeling anxious, you’re not gonna be like, oh, I think I’ll come up with some new dance moves. You’re like, oh my God, this is gonna go terrible. Who was I? How can I come up with new dance? I’m gonna be on the stage, people are gonna be watching. What if I fall? These shoes feel a little slippery, right? 

[00:44:42] Dr. Shawn Hondorp: Mm-hmm. 

[00:44:43] Randi Rubenstein: The anxiety will, will shut down any new ideas or any creativity. but you not having that extra song to even think about and just having to get out there and go. Creativity also shuts down anxiety.

[00:44:59] Dr. Shawn Hondorp: Mm-hmm. 

[00:45:00] Randi Rubenstein: it all sounds a little, I think a little too out there, which is like, well, if you’re a really anxious person, if you just get into creativity, it’ll shut down your anxiety. But understanding this out of the moment when you’re not feeling anxious and maybe even understanding, oh, no, no, no. This is brain science, right? Yeah. And so what I, and having that plan like this is so much of Pack Leadership, you guys is planning. 

[00:45:29] Dr. Shawn Hondorp: Mm-hmm. 

[00:45:29] Randi Rubenstein: I’m gonna have a plan for when I’m in the moment and I have the little toddler that is squirming and kicking and, and punching and doesn’t wanna go in his car seat.

[00:45:41] Dr. Shawn Hondorp: Mm-hmm. 

[00:45:42] Randi Rubenstein: I’m gonna think about this ahead of time. and my anxiety’s gonna be like, oh my gosh, he’s so, why is everyone else’s kid so easy? What’s wrong with him? Why does he freak out over these little things? what if he’s autistic? You know, like whatever. All the different, right. All the different things. 

[00:46:00] Dr. Shawn Hondorp: Yeah. 

[00:46:01] Randi Rubenstein: And, and so out of the moment it’s like, wait a minute, I did a little prep and I’m learning about this stage of development. Oh, he’s at this stage of development where he realizes that he can kind of be more in control of what he wants to do in this moment. And he lives in the present, you know? So I started reading all this child development that was my Pack Leader showing up out of the moment. 

[00:46:26] Dr. Shawn Hondorp: Mm-hmm. 

[00:46:26] Randi Rubenstein: Kind of trying to understand. Is this about me or is there something wrong with him? Or maybe I should actually learn about how old he is right now and typical child development. And so we we’re planning outta the moment and then I’m like, okay, this is totally normal. It’s not that he’s abnormal, this is what they do. Okay. 

So then I probably heard somebody say like, if you make it playful or if you distract them. And then I’m at Gymboree and I’m watching him and I’m watching my fussy little guy. All of a sudden he is engaged and he’s happy and he’s smiling and I’m like, oh shit, I can use that. Right? So I’m thinking about this out of the moment and planning, and then I spring it on him when I’m in the moment. But I’ve taken this mental prep time outta the moment. Right? 

[00:47:17] Dr. Shawn Hondorp: Yeah. And, and so, and engaging with, I’ll just point this out, knowing this about you, like engaging with that material from a, what you love, which is learning and listening. Right? Like you were engaging with your own form of play at that time. 

[00:47:32] Randi Rubenstein: That’s right. That’s right. These are the things that I want to be learning about right now. 

[00:47:36] Dr. Shawn Hondorp: Yeah. Like interpersonal neurobiology and, yeah, I think that that, just to go with this dance analogy, like when I started dance again, I was not doing improv and creating my own, I wasn’t choreographing my own stuff, right? Like there was no improvisation. I was following the steps taught to me. 

But now the more I do with having other people teach me creative things and doing it exactly as they tell me to, now the more I can improv dance, and with like my morning story this morning that was improv, right? 

[00:48:09] Randi Rubenstein: Mm-hmm. 

[00:48:09] Dr. Shawn Hondorp: Which I think of myself as, and it’s interesting, and I know I told you all about this study on the retreat because I think it’s fascinating.

It was cited in the book Originals by Adam Grant, which is all about original thinking and it’s that study that looked at Nobel Prize winning scientists versus like regular scientists. And it showed their involvement in any creative endeavor had them much more likely to be in that Nobel Prize winning group, but especially these performing arts. So magician was really high, I think actor. Um, I think dancer was high up on there too. But there’s something about this like right brain creative play that makes us more innovative thinkers. 

And so if you think it’s fluffy, no, like it’s the last thing and it it, I left you a Voxer yesterday, right? ’cause I was like, oh, I’m gonna tell you about what Will said when we were playing in the snow fort and how he’s like, you know, I was digging this snow fort tunnel. I was like, this is kind of fun, isn’t it, bud? And he goes, it’s also really important. And I was like, you’re right. It’s so important to him, but also play is really important. He’s right. Yes. So five-year-old wisdom, 

[00:49:29] Randi Rubenstein: I mean, yes, it’s really important. It’s like, yeah, we’re building a tunnel. Like in that moment’s, like, yeah, building a tunnel is very important. Like this is necessary. It has to happen right now. You know? Like his brain lives in that magical thinking. It’s so beautiful. But it’s also like, this isn’t just a game, mom. We’re building a tunnel right now and this matters. 

[00:49:54] Dr. Shawn Hondorp: Yeah. The soldiers are gonna be in that tunnel soon, and then the rats are gonna come. Like there was a whole thing that happened after these creepy rats. 

[00:50:03] Randi Rubenstein: So awesome. This is really important. And it is. It’s like, this is really important. And I just think that, this whole Pack leadership concept, which is really just leadership. 

[00:50:16] Dr. Shawn Hondorp: Mm-hmm. 

[00:50:17] Randi Rubenstein: Is how do we show up in our lives where of course we’re respected. Of course. You know, I mean, Lindsey shared a story recently, Lindsey, who works with me and is like my co-parent who helps run my business and um, and she’s got a 16-year-old now and she was like, you know, we’ve got this thing because I, you know, my middle one’s gonna be on a Boy Scouts retreat. The 16-year-old has social plans, you know, he’s 16 and he’s actually for the first time kind of getting more social. So she’s like loving it, that he’s like, ’cause he’s kind of a serious kid. 

And she’s like, and her and her husband had plans both nights of the weekend. Well she’s still got a fifth grader. And she’s like, do I hire a babysitter? Um. She’s like, because it’s weird. I mean, Ben puts, he’s her, you know, her house is self-sufficient. Like she’s, she’s like, do I hire a babysitter? Because he puts himself to bed. Ben puts and like, do I hire someone just a bit? It doesn’t feel right to leave him alone. He is only in fifth grade, even though I know he’ll be fine. Like, you know. 

[00:51:32] Dr. Shawn Hondorp: Mm-hmm. 

[00:51:32] Randi Rubenstein: And so, I mean, her house is a well-oiled machine. 

[00:51:35] Dr. Shawn Hondorp: Mm-hmm.

[00:51:35] Randi Rubenstein: So she’s like, what’s the right answer? And I said, the 16-year-old was only going out one night. 

I said, you could just ask him to invite the friends over to your place. and, you know, see what he thinks about that. So anyway, so she said, Hey, you know what about inviting your friends over? Um, I just don’t wanna leave Ben home alone. And she said, immediately, Jake said, well, it’s not a big deal. I’m just gonna take, we were gonna go to Jack’s Grill and I’ll just take him with me wherever we go, I’ll just take ’em with me. His 10-year-old brother. 

[00:52:09] Dr. Shawn Hondorp: Mm-hmm. 

[00:52:10] Randi Rubenstein: And, um, and Lindsey knows that sometimes, you know, the 10-year-old could be like, you know, he wants to impress the older kids or something. So she’s like, and she’s really happy that Jake’s like, letting loose a little bit and making some friends and going out, going out. And so she’s like, yeah, but I don’t want, you know what, I don’t wanna put you in that position. And what if he, she and Jake’s like, then I’ll handle it. It’s fine. It’s not a big deal.

[00:52:35] Dr. Shawn Hondorp: Yeah. 

[00:52:35] Randi Rubenstein: And um, and she’s like, are you sure? He was like, absolutely. It’s not a big deal. Right. So like, why, you know, and I’ve had people ask me a lot of times like, how do you get your older kid to watch your younger kid or your older kid when they start driving to automatically drive their sibling everywhere?

And I’m like, it’s their pleasure. I. Like, why is it their pleasure? Why was it Jake’s pleasure? Why did Jake step? And I said, you know, it’s like, because when the Pack Leadership is so, so strong, it makes everyone feel safe and everybody, it’s like, this is the way we do things here. Nobody has to overpower anyone. Nobody needs to act like an asshole. Nobody needs to guilt trip anyone. This is the way we do things here and people just feel so safe and then they learn by what we model. And then because we’ve been those Pack Leaders when it’s their turn or they have to do the be the fill in Pack Leaders sometimes. Absolutely. This is just what needs to happen and they just see it so clearly. 

[00:53:37] Dr. Shawn Hondorp: Well, yeah. And we as humans are actually wired to want to be cooperative and helpful, like all of us. Right. But, and that’s, you know, years ago the theory I was so into that I still have talked about on this podcast a lot is self-determination theory.

And there’s a lot of science to show that. Like intrinsically we. Are wired to wanna be helpful. We’re wired to wanna learn, we’re wired to wanna challenge ourselves. We’re wired for all of these innate qualities and so many of our systems take that away. Right? But bringing that Pack Leadership back to your family unit is the best way to get people back in touch with, I wanna be generous and 

[00:54:18] Randi Rubenstein: That’s right.

[00:54:19] Dr. Shawn Hondorp: I have that confidence and I want to, you know, go out and play. And I want the other people to have fun and play too. And it’s a beautiful thing and it, but it is really counter-cultural because most of the time we get pulled out of that myself. You know, myself included, many of us, right? And just we’re controlling all the people are trying to get the people to do what we want. When they always want deep down. They want to be cooperative. 

[00:54:53] Randi Rubenstein: They want to be cooperative. They want. Life to feel like a party. Like they want all of a sudden like, you know, like, oh, tensions are high, and then all of a sudden there’s music on. I can’t tell you. It’s like such a simple thing when it’s like those witching hours and it’s just you’re tired and you know, and they’re tired and it’s just like, and then all of a sudden we just put on music and it just changes the vibe.

[00:55:22] Dr. Shawn Hondorp: Yeah. 

[00:55:22] Randi Rubenstein: Like sometimes it’s as simple as that. 

[00:55:25] Dr. Shawn Hondorp: Yeah. There’s so many, there’s really like the opportunities are infinite, but yeah, music, dance, story, I think those are the, some of the ones that I’ve found the most helpful. But there’s so many different ways to do this. To shift from, yeah, a culture that values doing and grades and external control and compliance to. All of those, the, The Way of Play is that book. You know, it’s like the way of play actually gets all of those external things, not compliance, but people to show up generously. And yeah. 

And I don’t think we talked about it last time, but I know Lindsey, speaking of Lindsey is you have talked for with her for years about this concept of like creating Cabo at home. ’cause she had wanted to, you know, you know, everyone wants to go on a vacation and, but what if we could actually have our life feel like a vacation? And I know that that’s something that you’ve done with your life, right? Where you still go on vacation, but you really, really like, and I know you and Avery were talking about that recently and like, what a, I mean, it’s so counter-cultural, right? It’s just not 

[00:56:46] Randi Rubenstein: Yeah, I love home. I mean, I literally feel like I go on vacation, just so that I get to experience how much I love coming back home. And I’ll go on, I mean, like, I’ll go to great places I need to go and, and I realize like, like, okay, I’m gonna go and I wanna have an experience, but like, do I need to go on vacation to feel like, ugh, I can finally relax?

No, that’s what I like. this is my sanctuary. This is my happy place. I’m so excited to get back here after I’ve been on vacation. Even if it was like Hawaii and it was fabulous. I still can’t wait to get back here. Yeah. 

[00:57:23] Dr. Shawn Hondorp: Well you had to come to the retreat to see Lake Michigan and meet me in person, so, 

[00:57:27] Randi Rubenstein: No, and I, I mean, and it was so worth it, right? Like, I mean, and I loved it. Like that’s the thing, I’m like, oh my gosh, I love being somewhere so beautiful. And I love being in real life with other people and I enjoyed being with all the people that I met. But also like, yeah, I miss my bed. And you know, it’s that law of polarity, right? Like, 

[00:57:49] Dr. Shawn Hondorp: Yeah, 

[00:57:49] Randi Rubenstein: Sometimes we have to be a away, I mean, if I just stay, and I’ve noticed this, especially now that I’m, I’ve just, you know, entered into empty nester hood if I stay cozy in the cave, which I can tend to do sometimes for too many days.

[00:58:07] Dr. Shawn Hondorp: Mm-hmm. 

[00:58:07] Randi Rubenstein: All of a sudden it happened last week. We crazy snow in Houston, you know, we never get snow. 

[00:58:13] Dr. Shawn Hondorp: Yeah. 

[00:58:13] Randi Rubenstein: We got to kind of experience a tiny bit, you know, of like having snow days. So we had two days, but you know, this whole city is like locked down when there’s snow because we don’t have the infrastructure.

[00:58:24] Dr. Shawn Hondorp: Right. 

[00:58:24] Randi Rubenstein: And, um, by the end of day two, like where I had just been like a shut in. I, and it was so cozy. I had my fireplaces, I had my dogs, I had like all the things. I was like, kind of feeling like depressed. 

[00:58:43] Dr. Shawn Hondorp: Mm-hmm. 

[00:58:45] Randi Rubenstein: You know, I felt isolated. I felt depressed. I felt like this is too much solitude. I started going to a dark place. So I’m like, yeah, too. If you just stay cozy in the cave, that’s all of a sudden the cave doesn’t feel so cozy. 

[00:58:59] Dr. Shawn Hondorp: Right, right. Well it reminds like that those concepts of, for most people, creativity and play can be vulnerable too. We didn’t, we kind of touched on that, but like, you know, connection, creativity, all the back to the eight Cs of IFS and self-energy. It’s um, like there’s a reason, and going back to self-determination theory, what we’re wired for, we actually are wired, it’s intrinsically rewarding to do things that challenge us, right? 

And so that’s why I think that’s why people do, you know, extreme things or mildly extreme things I’m thinking of like climbing mountains and like marathons and things like that. But because it’s feels so good to accomplish that thing, but also to challenge yourself in that way. Um, and yeah, and we can get too much of a, the law of polar la polarity as you often say, too cozy in the cave. And it can make us feel like I’m yearning for something else and Yeah. Yeah, and I think 

[01:00:01] Randi Rubenstein: It’s like, and for anybody that that kind of wants that, it’s like you’re not gonna appreciate the warm fire if you don’t like go out into the cold and actually get cold enough to then come in and experience, ugh, it feels so good to warm my bones. 

[01:00:17] Dr. Shawn Hondorp: Right? 

[01:00:17] Randi Rubenstein: If you just stay by the fire. you’re not even noticing that the fire’s keeping you warm because you’re not allowing your body to get cold enough where you experience sort of that opposite, you know? 

[01:00:29] Dr. Shawn Hondorp: Yeah. 

[01:00:29] Randi Rubenstein: That opposite experience. And so it intensifies, it’s, it just makes for, I think, a more alive life when Alec ran that, my oldest son just ran his first half marathon and it was on a freezing cold day in Houston.

[01:00:44] Dr. Shawn Hondorp: Mm-hmm. 

[01:00:45] Randi Rubenstein: And he said the start, he goes, they were supposed to start the race. And they didn’t start for like a, like till 45 minutes later. And he was like, it was so cold. I was so cold. It was unbelievable. And then after the race, and he’s in the car, he’s in the warm car and he just, and he’s like. It feels so good in here and I’m so, and he was experiencing like, it, he felt so proud of himself that he accomplished this thing. Um, but yeah, like it was like going through those extremes I think just intensifies the experience. 

[01:01:26] Dr. Shawn Hondorp: Yeah, totally. Makes me think of my, my friend and I used to sit in her hot tub in like middle school and then go jump in the lake, like in like freezing cold winter. Like, I mean, it wasn’t frozen, right? ’cause there was water, but, and then we’d jump back in the hot tub and 

[01:01:41] Randi Rubenstein: So good for you. 

[01:01:43] Dr. Shawn Hondorp: Yeah. Yeah. We were doing the cold plunge before it was cool. 

[01:01:46] Randi Rubenstein: Yeah. 

[01:01:47] Dr. Shawn Hondorp: Back in Michigan Lake. Yeah. the, you know, the final thing I wanna touch on maybe today is this idea. I mentioned sort of like, you as a Pack Leader in Mastermind, creating the Mastermind community and how beneficial that’s been to all of us. And that’s just you showing up, doing what you love doing and what interests you and what a gift that can be.

‘Cause I think that’s where it comes, like the self dash ish leadership, right? Like it’s not selfish. It’s actually generous to do what lights us up because it makes us show up better and differently. And that’s what I’ve found. Like the more I explore creativity and sometimes in my business do stuff related to creativity, more and more.

Like even if it’s just this podcast conversation, like I will be more lit up for my afternoon clients. Like they don’t necessarily know that, right? ’cause they don’t know that I just did this. But, and I find I bring more creativity to those sessions. Like I do more innovative things within session. 

And I, I think that I just wanna kind of counter this narrative that, um, doing things that bring us joy is frivolous or selfish or doesn’t matter because I think it deeply matters now more than ever. And like I said, whether that’s someone wanting to explore, how could I make more of a business doing what I love? Because as I said last time, like we live in a world where we have to make, we have, we need money to survive.

So to me, I’m kind of a practical person. I’m like, why wouldn’t I wanna do that? Like, why wouldn’t I wanna make money doing what I love so I can do less of the things that I’m kind of like, eh, it’s fine. Right? And so my hope is that that gives people hope. 

‘Cause I know that that’s something I’ve been shifting. Like not only do I feel more lit up with the work that I’m doing with one-on-one work, but gradually making more money doing like these retreats or these in-person meetups. And maybe one day I, I make a little money with my podcast. Not much, but like I get so much out of it, you know? And so my hope is that gives people hope that they could dip their toe into what that could look like for them.

[01:04:03] Randi Rubenstein: Yeah. if we can bring more of our zone of genius into whatever our job is, right? 

[01:04:11] Dr. Shawn Hondorp: Mm-hmm. 

[01:04:12] Randi Rubenstein: I mean, if you are actually creating a job and running your own business and, you know, taking all the risks that come with that, right? 

[01:04:21] Dr. Shawn Hondorp: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. 

[01:04:22] Randi Rubenstein: Um, and you truly get to do things your way. I mean, that’s what I always say to myself is like, well, I get to figure this out. I can do it however I want to, you know? 

[01:04:34] Dr. Shawn Hondorp: Yeah. 

[01:04:34] Randi Rubenstein: And, um, and that is how I happen upon, you know, tools like Voxer, lately I’ve been using AI for doing some of those Jungian dream analysis. 

[01:04:44] Dr. Shawn Hondorp: Mm-hmm. 

[01:04:44] Randi Rubenstein: Um, which has been so cool. You know, just like I’m willing to be creative and play around with like, oh, this sounds like kind of a fun thing to do.

[01:04:53] Dr. Shawn Hondorp: Yeah. 

[01:04:53] Randi Rubenstein: Um, right. Because it’s my business so I can do whatever I want. And I think that for anyone though, whether you’re running your own business or whether you’re working at a job that you know isn’t your passion and you don’t love all the parts of it, I mean, a lot of this is self-awareness. When you start to get back in touch with, well, how do I actually want to play? Like what? What does feel like? Freedom in my body. What, you know, what do I do where I do lose track of time? 

[01:05:23] Dr. Shawn Hondorp: Yeah. 

[01:05:23] Randi Rubenstein: Um, right. Talking to a friend. Well, talking to a friend about, what was it? When a friend comes to you and they’re like, oh my God, I have the hardest day. Or, I really don’t know what to do in this situation. Is it advising a friend? You know, so like, there’s so much information. 

[01:05:37] Dr. Shawn Hondorp: Mm-hmm. 

[01:05:38] Randi Rubenstein: And so when you start to tap into, it’s like we had a, um, a lawyer in the oil and gas industry speak up on our, on one of our threads, you know, um, one of our conversations in our Mastermind, and she’s like, I just didn’t really like that Big Magic book. Like, it just didn’t really appeal to me. And she’s a lawyer. She’s got a very high position with a big oil and gas. She’s like a major leader in this company and mentor. And, um, and she’s like, yeah, it didn’t really appeal, appeal to me. 

But then we broke down all the ways. Like she’s not a, you know, she went to law school and became a lawyer. She’s not drafting and coming up, you know? Right. You know, going over contracts like, like she shows up in leadership and she problem solves and people come to her and she mentors. She’s using so much creativity day in and day out in her life, and she just didn’t see it as that, you know? 

[01:06:39] Dr. Shawn Hondorp: Yeah. It’s funny, I was kind of thinking of her too, like as we think about different ways to use this, but yeah. I love, we, we have to be more creative of, of how we think about creativity. 

[01:06:51] Randi Rubenstein: That right? 

[01:06:51] Dr. Shawn Hondorp: Mm-hmm. 

[01:06:52] Randi Rubenstein: That’s right. I know. I feel like we could talk about this all day. 

[01:06:56] Dr. Shawn Hondorp: I know, Well, part two of however many. It’s coming to a close, but I hope that people will at least just be like, Hmm, I mean, if they made it this far, they, we are interesting enough to finish the conversation. So maybe they’ll take a little, you know, toe dip into this. And I think it’s just as always for me, like creativity, exploring it, exploring zone of genius is a process, and I’m always like unlocking new levels of like, oh, this is the thing that I’m doing here. Right. 

Even with this podcast, like, I think there’s even more to explore about why do I really like these interview episodes so much. And, um, yeah, I, I think I know some of it, but like really digging to it and, and it’s ever evolving. But I mean, as someone who, I didn’t listen to a lot of music until recently, like literally recent years. Like there’s just, it’s interesting, like we can just close off these, these, funnels of connection to creativity and not even consciously. And I think that it’s a huge loss. So 

[01:08:03] Randi Rubenstein: I agree. I agree. I, me too. I think the learning part of my brain has been so engaged and online. And now I also have started to listen to music again a little bit. I still, yeah. You know, I, I still 

[01:08:19] Dr. Shawn Hondorp: Same. I don’t a ton either. 

[01:08:21] Randi Rubenstein: Yeah. A little bit. But like, even just like in the shower, um 

[01:08:26] Dr. Shawn Hondorp: mm-hmm. 

[01:08:26] Randi Rubenstein: And I’m like, oh, this is fun to listen to music in the shower. Like my, the rest of my family all listens to music in the shower. And now I’m like, it is fun to listen to music in the shower, you know?

[01:08:38] Dr. Shawn Hondorp: Yeah. 

[01:08:39] Randi Rubenstein: And so, yeah, I’m also kind of playing around with that too. 

[01:08:43] Dr. Shawn Hondorp: Yeah, you and I are similar in that we love podcasts and like learning and so that can be our play too. But yeah, I I, I used to do podcasts in the shower. I’m like, I can’t even stop for five minutes. I don’t take long showers. 

[01:08:55] Randi Rubenstein: Yeah, I know. I know, I know. 

[01:08:57] Dr. Shawn Hondorp: Yeah. The, and that’s why I like dance ’cause I am, I’m moving as I listen. But yeah, well, thank you for being here again. And uh, yeah, as always, we’ll talk soon. 

[01:09:09] Randi Rubenstein: Sounds good. Bye everyone. 

[01:09:11] Dr. Shawn Hondorp: Bye. 

[01:09:11] Randi Rubenstein: Thanks for listening today, guys. I hope you picked up some tips, tools, maybe some baby steps for creating more balance and boundaries in your life. And I just wanted to let you know, if you want to continue moving the needle forward in creating this for yourself, having a happier household, I want you to go to my website and check out mastermindparenting.com. We have three beginning programs, and if you need some accountability and more support then please look for the one that would be a good fit for you.

And, as always, we’re on all the social channels under Mastermind Parenting, on Instagram it’s mastermind_parenting. And, you know, periodically I do pop up on different Instagram lives, Facebook lives where I give you teaching and coaching and I love engaging with you live to help you help your strong-willed kids so that they can feel better, because when they feel better they do better, and I love, love, love getting to know you guys. 

So thanks for listening. If you like this podcast, please don’t forget to subscribe, rate and review. Super, super appreciative.