323: You Want Your Kids To Be Seen As “Good Kids”… So What?

AUDIO MMP 323 – Avery on Identitiesz

Randi Rubenstein: [00:00:00] My name is Randi Rubenstein, and welcome to the Mastermind Parenting Podcast. At Mastermind Parenting, we’re on a mission to support strong-willed kids and the families that love them. 

Hi everyone. You wanna do the introductions?

Avery Rubenstein: I feel like I’m gonna do ’em wrong, but hi, I’m Avery.

Randi Rubenstein: Hi, I’m Randi. Um, it’s Avery and Randi here again. this week we have a topic that I wanna unpack. it’s something that’s been swirling around in my brain and it’s come up like three or four times in the last week in my coaching. And so that tells me it’s a topic that needs to be discussed more, unpacked more, and teased out. And it’s about shaping our kids’ identities.

Parents who are, who ask for coaching and it’s, you know, whether it’s the little kid who’s being demanding at dinner, they won’t eat anything. [00:01:00] They act like you’re a short order cook, or they’re asking, instead of the food that was laid out for them, they’re asking for, they want a yogurt, they want a banana. They’re super particular, and they won’t just like eat the food on the table.

So the parent who’s got that kid, they’re thinking, I have a difficult kid. How can I take them to a restaurant? You know, like the thought of their kid ever going over to someone else’s house for dinner. They don’t eat anything. you know, and so deep down they’re worried that they’re failing as a parent because they’ve raised this high maintenance child and they don’t know how to turn it around.

Avery Rubenstein: Mm-hmm.

Randi Rubenstein: And the other place that came up was a mom whose son, nine years old, and I talked about you a lot on this call. Um, super, super sporty. He’s a total sporty spice [00:02:00] and he’s a little bit of a ball hog. Um, or I think maybe a lot of bit of a ball hog.

And she noticed that like not only is he not the best team member, during sports. Also, like she had volunteered at something at school and he was in a small group and she was facilitating this group. I don’t know, there was some kind of project or thing. And he was sort of hijacking the conversation, wasn’t letting other people like having a real problem with impulse control.

and her sentence was, he’s just a “me first” kind of person, which really was her thinking of him as a selfish person. And she was blaming herself ‘ ra, you know, what was her biggest fear when we kind of teased that out? Her biggest fear is that he was gonna grow up and be a selfish of person who was not, who was inconsiderate and didn’t think of others. And nobody’s going to want to be around him. He’s gonna be lonely and it’s gonna be all her fault.

So [00:03:00] then, and then there was another scenario about a kid that was acting super entitled. and just kind of like acting like a shithead. And parents are like, their fear gets stoked. Like, I wanna, everybody wants to raise a kid that, that is thought of as a good kid,

Avery Rubenstein: Mm-hmm.

Randi Rubenstein: Like you know, what a nice boy, what a nice girl. Right. And then you have kids that are displaying these behaviors and it seems like evidence that you’re not raising a kid like that that’s gonna be thought of like that.

And so, you know, when I was coaching these parents and we were kind of teasing out what they were thinking about it so we could identify what the real problem was. And the real problem was like these kids just had lagging skills. Like they had learned to be demanding. Like the kid, the picky kid at dinner who’s, know, demanding this and that. Like, well, we haven’t taught him that, here’s the food [00:04:00] that’s available. There’s always gonna be some choices on the table that are bland choices that you’ll like. You can help yourself. I provide the food and it’s your job to eat it or not. And so there had been a lot of control on the scene and worry that, you know, just take three more bites.

Avery Rubenstein: Right. Your kid’s not gonna starve.

Randi Rubenstein: Right. So that control led to a lot of power struggling, which then lead to ultimately the kid upping the ante and upping the ante and upping the ante.

Avery Rubenstein: Mm-hmm.

Randi Rubenstein: Becoming more and more and more demanding. This kid hadn’t learned how to be flexible because the kid was just resisting all this control.

Avery Rubenstein: Right,

Randi Rubenstein: Right? So the kid actually had some lagging skills in terms of you’ve gotta tap into what your body is hungry for and maybe even some flexibility of, oh, we’re having, you know, I mean, how many times did I hear from you guys? Chicken again?

Avery Rubenstein: Right. Yeah. I [00:05:00] mean like I feel like it’s, we were talking a little bit about power and earlier today, and I just feel like it’s like everyone feels good when they have power. We know that feels good when you feel powerful, and it’s almost like giving your kid the wrong impression of what achieving power looks like. 

Randi Rubenstein: Let me hear more about that.

Avery Rubenstein: um, we were talking about status and you know, status is social standing, is what we do. And in an evolutionary perspective, 

Randi Rubenstein: Will you just take back it up and, ’cause we’re gonna tie status in here and

Avery Rubenstein: Mm-hmm.

Randi Rubenstein: I would love for you to sort of define status.

Avery Rubenstein: Let me read it for you.

Randi Rubenstein: Please.

Avery Rubenstein: Status, the relative social, professional, or other standing of someone or something. So it’s like how powerful you are in the community. But that power can be, you know, people trust you. It doesn’t have to mean, you know, I have the most resources.

I feel like how it’s been skewed in our modern [00:06:00] day, is how many resources you have. So people buy nice cars for status, or kids are picky eaters for status. You know, it’s like almost like a power struggle. But when those traits were developed, when we were hunter gatherers, status was, Hey, I have resources to share with you and therefore you’ll give resources back to me. It was kind of like I’m the most trustworthy person in the group 

Randi Rubenstein: Can you go back into the picky eating? Like what about that can be connected to status when a kid is being a royal pain in the butt?

Avery Rubenstein: Mm-hmm.

Randi Rubenstein: I wanted yogurt. I don’t like, chicken again, I’m not eating. You can’t make me.

Avery Rubenstein: Well, if a mom or dad, usually a mom is bending over backwards to meet their kids’ every demand because they’re scared, oh no, they’re gonna be underweight, or, oh no, they’re gonna go to bed hungry tonight. All of a sudden, the kid’s like, I can make her do [00:07:00] anything. I can get dinosaur chicken nuggets right now, even though they’re not made. Simply because I won’t eat what she provided. It’s easy.

Randi Rubenstein: Power.

Avery Rubenstein: It’s power.

Randi Rubenstein: Hmm.

Avery Rubenstein: Not that our kids are like little dictators in the making, but it’s spreading the wrong message for them to become people who, take advantage of people doing things for them. 

Randi Rubenstein: And it’s evolutionary, so it’s not demonic. It’s actually people are constantly sort of vying for power, and

Avery Rubenstein: We see it every day.

Randi Rubenstein: But if the parent isn’t establishing that this is my status in the group. I’m the pack leader, and

Avery Rubenstein: Mm-hmm.

Randi Rubenstein: I provide the food, and there are choices and options. the options provided are here on the table, and it’s your choice whether you eat those or not. These are the options available. So if the parent all of a sudden is running to the refrigerator, grabbing the [00:08:00] yogurt, doing the thing, making the extra nuggets, whatever they’re doing.

Avery Rubenstein: Mm-hmm.

Randi Rubenstein: They’re actually giving away their power in that moment

Avery Rubenstein: Right,

Randi Rubenstein: as the pack leader.

Avery Rubenstein: Giving away their power, which upsets the whole dynamic of a family. And teaching the wrong message of what status really should be based on our evolution, which is, Hey, I’m a trustworthy member of the group. I’m easygoing. Doesn’t mean you’re a doormat, but I’m easygoing. And you can trust me that if you help me, I’ll help you.

But a power hungry kid who doesn’t wanna give back, they just wanna take like, that’s the wrong impression. If you have a kid who is going to dinner and they’re happy with anything, and if they’re not, they’ll just keep to themselves and they won’t eat and they’ll figure it out. Like, that’s teaching your kid, hey, be kind. Treat others how you wanna be treated. Like it, it’s just a whole different messaging.

Randi Rubenstein: Because they’re not, not constantly seeking power [00:09:00] over.

Avery Rubenstein: Mm. It’s not a constant power struggle.

Randi Rubenstein: Yeah.

Avery Rubenstein: Mm-hmm.

Randi Rubenstein: And so, it kind of made me think of what is parenting? Like, you know, parents always talk about like they wanna instill their values and I can’t tell you how many times that I’m like, well, what are your values? What are your

Avery Rubenstein: Mm-hmm.

Randi Rubenstein: top three values? Very few of us ever, I mean, remember when we did that exercise not that long ago around the dinner table and we were all taught, like we sent a text. I think dad sent it.

Avery Rubenstein: Yeah, dad’s big on his core values.

Randi Rubenstein: He was like, come to the dinner table tonight. And y’all don’t anyone get excited. This was like, I don’t know, he must have been reading something and all of a sudden at the

Avery Rubenstein: Some self-help book. Yeah.

Randi Rubenstein: yeah, like at the 11th hour, he’s like, oh gosh, I don’t think I’ve instilled enough words of wisdom. I better, they’re almost grown.

Avery Rubenstein: It was so Dad of him.

Randi Rubenstein: Yeah, it was like, he was like, but I appreciated it. ‘Cause you know, I love, a little sort of structured project,

Avery Rubenstein: Mm-hmm.

Randi Rubenstein: that leads to a meatier [00:10:00] conversation. And it was during winter break when everyone was home and he said, come to the dinner table tonight with your three top core, with your three core values.

Avery Rubenstein: Mm-hmm.

Randi Rubenstein: And we were tapping in and we, and then we explained why they were our three core values, right? So when your kids are little and you’re, instilling your core values, number one, I think you have to know what they are, but I was also thinking like, is it control? And this is actually an honest question, like is it controlling to want to shape your kids’ identities. Like, to be thought of, like what I said to this mom, and it really made me kind of, I mean, I really do believe in this, but then it made me wanna talk to you about it.

So what I said to this mom after I coached her about like the kid that was the picky eater, I said, you’re gonna at a non-relevant time, out of the moment, establish the rule. But kids are super [00:11:00] logical. So you want to talk about the why we have this rule, why we’re gonna do dinner differently, why we’re gonna now eat the food that’s on the table, and I’ll provide the food and then it’s your job to eat it or not. But I’m not gonna fight with you anymore about this and I’m not gonna be, there’s not, you know, just know that, the options for dinner are on the table. There’s no going to the pantry or going to the fridge like you can eat the food provided or not.

And I said, but you wanna explain why? And I said, you know, a why could be, Hey, you’re a social little guy. You got a lot of friends. This kid was like five or six. You got a lot of little friends and before you know it, those little friends are gonna invite you for a play date. And then the mom’s gonna say, or the kid’s gonna say, Hey, can so-and-so stay for dinner?

Avery Rubenstein: Mm-hmm.

Randi Rubenstein: They’re gonna invite you to come and sit at their dinner table. And if you come and sit at their dinner table only used to, I don’t like this, get me [00:12:00] that. I want this.

Avery Rubenstein: It boils my blood.

Randi Rubenstein: what do you think they’re gonna be saying about you when you leave?

Avery Rubenstein: Right.

Randi Rubenstein: Don’t you wanna be the kid? Like, like they might, the mom might say, wow, he really acts like a little king. Like everyone is his servant and just works for him.

Avery Rubenstein: Mm-hmm.

Randi Rubenstein: Versus if you’re the kid that comes over and can always find something to eat and you’re just appreciative they just invited you and they’re, they cooked for you. Right. And now you’re the kid that figures it out. Like what are they gonna say when you leave? What a nice boy. I see why you’re friends with him. He had such beautiful manners. He

Avery Rubenstein: Right.

Randi Rubenstein: showed so much respect, right? We wanna respect other people. Don’t you wanna be the kid that’s thought of like that? But I started questioning. I was like, is, does that feel sort of like being a [00:13:00] megalomaniac and trying to control your kid’s identity?

Avery Rubenstein: Not see, I think the point of parenting, I mean, you know, thousands of years ago, the point of parenting was create someone who can create offspring and on and on and on. And now in our modern day, it’s create someone who can navigate this really complicated world. 

Randi Rubenstein: once you’re gone. 

Avery Rubenstein: you’re raising, on their own. Yeah. Without you. And from an individual perspective, when you’re raising, in your mind, a human who can navigate the world, you want them to have the values that you have because that’s how you’ve navigated the world. I don’t think that’s controlling, I think that’s trying to set your kid up for success.

Randi Rubenstein: That’s what I think too, but I just was, I don’t know, I was questioning it a little bit. like we want to shape their identities, but I wasn’t a hundred percent sure. But what that makes complete sense. Like once, know, it was like the mom who was talking about the super sporty spice kid, [00:14:00] she, and when we drilled it down, it was, I will have failed. Because who will wanna be around him if he’s not the kind of, if he’s the person who takes up all the air in the room and doesn’t ever share the ball, the metaphorical ball

Avery Rubenstein: Right. Well. To me, the ball hog is the same exact thing as picky eating. Is, it’s a control thing. And it’s also like you wanna teach your kid how to share properly because then they’ll receive the same in turn. Like, Hey, you wanna pass the ball to your teammates because then your teammates will wanna pass the ball to you. They’ll trust you to make the right decision for the team, not just keep it to yourself. You know, or people wanna include you in conversation ’cause they know that you’ll include them in turn. It’s just teaching your kid how to be a kind, reciprocal human.

Randi Rubenstein: Yeah, a kind, reciprocal, reciprocal human who understands how to get along [00:15:00] with other people, how to be a part of a group

Avery Rubenstein: Yeah, it makes sense. And it gets kind of complex where you kind of have to teach your kid, hey, like obviously it feels good to talk about yourself all the time. Everyone wants to talk about themselves and it feels good to have the ball all the time because it feels important. Obviously, that’s when you’re the most engaged in the game. Part of being a human on this earth is you include others even when it doesn’t seem like your first instinct.

Randi Rubenstein: Yeah.

Avery Rubenstein: Does that make sense?

Randi Rubenstein: Well, and what I said to the mom about the kid who was being the ball hog, um, and the conversation hog, I said, I think the issue really more than anything is he’s got some lagging skills. Like he has a hard time with impulse control. Do you, have you noticed that he has a hard time with the skill of waiting. This is a skill that I think many parents just don’t, we don’t even think about teaching, you know, and so one of the ways that we can help a kid who has this impulse control issue, right? Which is he wants to get [00:16:00] his ideas out and he’s not controlling his impulses to like read the room and let other people also have ideas. Right? He want, he’s got so focused on winning on the court and he knows he’s gonna be, it’s, there’s a high likelihood if he takes the ball down the court, he’s gonna make the basket. And he’s so focused on winning, he doesn’t have the ability to say, actually I can pass to my team member and,

Avery Rubenstein: Right. Let me look up for a little bit and get outta my one track mind.

Randi Rubenstein: Right, right.

Avery Rubenstein: Mm-hmm.

Randi Rubenstein: So I said, you know, one of the ways we can work on impulse control is we teach them the skill of waiting. So with a very little kid, you know, have you ever noticed how he does he, I said, does he interrupt adult conversations a lot? She’s like, yes. And I said, so with a, with a little kid, you know, we, we teach them out of the moment, we’re gonna start working on waiting.

So like when you have a question, like, if I’m on the phone or if I’m talking, you know, to someone and you have something that you [00:17:00] wanna ask me right then at that moment, right. You know, and you just can’t wait. What you’re, we’re gonna have a new system and you’re gonna come up and you know, if you interrupt me, just know I’m gonna put one finger up. I’m gonna put one finger up to remind you of this. And then you’re just gonna put your hand on my arm, just like this, to let me know, Hey mom, I have a question.

Then in your head, and you might have to take a deep breath in to calm your body down. In your head, you’re gonna count to 30, which equals one minute, and it’s gonna, and so if it’s not an emergency, if you’re bleeding or barfing, then you say, emergency mom, I need you. But if it’s not an emergency, if there’s no bleeding or barfing and you just have something you want to get out or tell me, or ask me. You’re gonna put your hand, you are gonna take your deep breath, and then you’re gonna quietly to yourself in your head, you’re gonna count to 30 like this. Let’s [00:18:00] do it together. One 1000, two, 1000, three, 1000, four, 1000. And when you get to 30, then you can say, excuse me, mommy. And I will know you have had a question because you’ve had your hand on my arm. And I will make sure then to be able to talk to you. Right.

And what I said to this mom was, I said, a lot of times what you’ll notice is the kid might say, oh, I forgot what I was gonna ask you. They don’t really have that question anymore. But what you are working on in all those moments is they can trust you to respond to them. ‘Cause you’re not gonna be like, just another minute, just hold on a second. Like, you really have to respond to them after they get to 30. And then, they also now have just worked on that impulse control.

Avery Rubenstein: That teaches so many, I mean, when we got older, it turned into like write it down. Which I, we used to do. And it has turned into so many important life skills. You’re molding your kids’ identity to make them kinder human so they can navigate life.

Like [00:19:00] I’ve noticed because I was raised with that. I’m tooting my own horn a little bit, but it’s something that I like to be done for me. Whenever I’m in a group setting and someone tries to speak and other people don’t pay attention, I’ll always say, Hey, so and so, what were you trying to say? It just makes you pay attention a little bit more, and yeah, it just creates a different awareness of people trying to speak, people trying to get your attention, waiting their turn, 

Randi Rubenstein: And what I said to this mom was, I said, you know, so if your kid has some lagging skills, like, you know, have all these fancy terms. He has impulse control issues. He is got blah, blah, blah label. Okay, what are we gonna do about that? Right? And what I said to her was, is if your kid needed glasses, ’cause she was making this whole impulse control, he’s just a me first kind of person, mean she had somehow failed to teach him how to be a kind, considerate human.

Avery Rubenstein: Mm-hmm.

Randi Rubenstein: It was pointing back to herself rather than her kid with the lagging skill, [00:20:00] right? If we’re, if we’re in this self-blame sort of shame party,

Avery Rubenstein: Right.

Randi Rubenstein: Um, funeral, shame funeral, then we’re stuck there we’re not actually then able to put the bandwidth on the kid who

Avery Rubenstein: Mm-hmm.

Randi Rubenstein: needs to be taught something. and I said, you know, if your kid needed glasses. Right. Would you beat yourself up? And she was wearing glasses. I said, would you beat yourself up? Like, oh my gosh, I can’t believe I passed this on to my kid. It’s my gene pool. I’m so, I feel so bad for this. He’s gonna go through a life of being called Four Eyes and yada. Or would you be like, that sucks. I get it. I’m gonna take him to the eye doctor. I’m gonna get him, prescription for some glasses, and he’s super sporty, so I’m gonna make sure we have the sports classes too. Like you’re gonna actually get your kid the resources that they need. You’re not gonna be stuck in that whole unproductive dialogue with yourself.

Avery Rubenstein: And there’s like, if you put it all together, there’s a lot [00:21:00] to teach your kids. Like so much stuff that you wanna pass on. Sometimes some things get skipped over and you just address them when they come up.

Randi Rubenstein: That’s right. I was like, it’s not too late to work on this skill now.

Avery Rubenstein: Mm-hmm.

Randi Rubenstein: And you teach ’em the why behind it. You’re like, Hey, you’re a guy with a lot of leadership energy. Like you have a lot of things you wanna say, you wanna share. There’s, you’ve got a lot of skills on the court. And we’ve really gotta think of what kind of leader do I wanna be? I said, have y’all watched Ted Lasso? And she said. 

Avery Rubenstein: I love that show.

Randi Rubenstein: She goes, well, I have. I said, okay, and so that’s your assignment you’re gonna watch. She’s like, is it appropriate for a 9-year-old? I was like, just earmuff and eye cover, when, when you get to the, you know, sexy parts or whatever. There’s not that many of ’em. I said, number one, watch it with the subtitles because the writing’s so good. I said, but right now he is Jamie Tartt at the beginning of Ted [00:22:00] Lasso. She was like, oh, he’s Jamie Tartt.

Avery Rubenstein: He becomes the best character.

Randi Rubenstein: All right. I said, but his character arc, you see what he learns? I said, you know, we could teach these concepts all day long and it’s like blah, blah, blah, but all of a sudden you bond over a show or a story or a book, now you have a reference point. Your kid’s not gonna wanna be Jamie Tartt. Like he’s coming from this, you know, delicious mastermind family. ‘Cause her and her husband are both so, they’re pretty low key. And, I said, you know, you are helping to shape his identity. You’re reminding him who he wants to be. He doesn’t wanna be Jamie Tartt at the beginning of the show. And so bond with him over that and then work on the skills to help him become that kind of leader.

Avery Rubenstein: Right. It’s kind of hard to recognize negative patterns in yourself, but when you see a character on TV being an [00:23:00] asshole, you’re like, yeah, I don’t wanna be like that.

Randi Rubenstein: Right. We wanna be better. We wanna tap into it. So, I don’t know, something about this whole status thing, the relative social, professional, or other standing of someone or something. The standing, like, how do you want to be thought of?

I actually heard Dax Shepard on his podcast tie this back. He was interviewing some scientist and they were talking about like, what motivates people to make decisions. And Dax, who studied anthropology when he was in school, he a lot of times will tie things back to something evolutionary. And he said, I would argue that most decisions are made based on how it’s going to affect your status, how you want

Avery Rubenstein: Mm-hmm.

Randi Rubenstein: to be perceived within a group, within a tribe, within a pack.

Avery Rubenstein: Right.

Randi Rubenstein: If this taps into, you know how we are naturally motivated, how we’re naturally wired, [00:24:00] reminding our kids, these we’re these kinds of people. We’re sharing people. It’s important to us to listen to other people to make sure that everyone gets a chance to speak. We’re people that, I said, you know, I love the Abby Wambach, I’ve heard her talk about this, how every time she scored a goal, could see the footage, right, of her pointing at who assisted her. you know, on that team, what did she win? You would know soccer person.

Avery Rubenstein: The Women’s Cup, I think.

Randi Rubenstein: And she was like the, for like a long time she held the record for like the most

Avery Rubenstein: Yeah, she was a striker, so I think something like that. Yeah. She’s so sick.

Randi Rubenstein: So she, here she is. She’s actually the one that kicks the ball into the goal. So

Avery Rubenstein: Mm-hmm.

Randi Rubenstein: she gets credit for that. But she inherently knew to immediately point back to who? To the people that assisted her. [00:25:00] Like,

Avery Rubenstein: Mm-hmm.

this 

Randi Rubenstein: is not my goal, this is our goal. I didn’t just achieve this on my own. 

Avery Rubenstein: It’s so interesting to think about it. Like everything we do is for status. ‘Cause we’ve had that conversation, like you were asking what my motivation was. And you were like, be honest. Like your motivation doesn’t have to be, I wanna spread the proper message to all of the parents out there.

I’m like, I’m not a parent, like. What do I know? You know? But I was honest with you, and I said, my motivation is, I’m 23. I’m just outta college. I want to feel like I’ve accomplished something. Because it feels good, honestly, for other people to see me making accomplishments.

Randi Rubenstein: Mm-hmm.

Avery Rubenstein: That was a status decision a hundred percent.

Randi Rubenstein: Mm-hmm.

Avery Rubenstein: But I think, based on what we were talking about before, all of this instilling values in your kids, how that ties back to status is, Hey, let’s view status not as material gain. And as you know, being the person with the most accomplishments, let’s view [00:26:00] status as someone who’s trusted by others, who’s loved by others, and who loves others. You know, it becomes maybe more of, I don’t wanna say spiritual ’cause that sounds stupid, but like a spiritual sense of status rather than a physical.

Randi Rubenstein: I mean, I could think of status, for me it’s like, what’s the worst thing that someone could say about me? It would be that I’m a bad person. Right? Like that I’m a selfish person or I’m a bad person. Really

Avery Rubenstein: Right.

Randi Rubenstein: selfish to me would mean that I’m a bad person. There have been many times in my life, not many, many, but of course there have been times in my life where I’ve done things that are bad.

Avery Rubenstein: Mm-hmm.

Randi Rubenstein: I’ve wronged other people. I’ve said shit I shouldn’t have said. I’ve gossiped, I’ve, you know. So, like what motivates me quite often, you know, or I even think what motivated me in [00:27:00] terms of like, you know, getting to where to what I’m doing now is, I didn’t ever want my kids to feel like I was a bad mom. I didn’t want my kids to think I was a selfish mom. I didn’t want my kids to think I was a bad mom. And like, I wanted my kids to have happy childhoods. Really, at first it was a hundred percent because I, I didn’t want them to blame me or to think they didn’t have happy childhoods because I was a bad mom.

Avery Rubenstein: Mm-hmm.

Randi Rubenstein: So that was a status thing for me, was I want to be thought of by my pack

Avery Rubenstein: Which comes from your own conditioning.

Randi Rubenstein: Right. I was, you know, in many ways thinking other people had much better childhoods than me, or other people had families, and I, you know, I had a lot of envy growing up. Like, oh, I wish I was taken care of like that.

Avery Rubenstein: Right?

Randi Rubenstein: And I never wanted my kids to feel that way. So that led me down this path, but it really was a [00:28:00] status thing for me. It wasn’t really a status thing about anybody else thinking I was such a great mom. My own children were the ultimate judges for me.

Avery Rubenstein: Yeah. It’s the people close to you viewing you negatively. Like remember we, when I had that friend who was so mad at me and you were like, what are you so upset about? Let her be mad. You didn’t do anything wrong. And I was like, I cannot. It gave me a panic attack. I could not have her be mad at me. I could not have her thinking I was a bad friend, a bad person. It literally made me spiral.

And so I think in that sense, even though that sucks and you should be comfortable with people being mad at you, ’cause that’s life. You did succeed, in that, you instilled the value in me of, Hey, I want other people to think I’m a good person because that matters. It matters to me that I’m viewed as a good person.

Randi Rubenstein: Mm-hmm. Then that informs your deci decisions. You know, it feels good to be a good person, like,

Avery Rubenstein: Right, exactly. [00:29:00] Mm-hmm. I just had that conversation with my friends where I was like, you know, I do plenty of acts of kindness every day. ‘Cause I just, that’s one of my values. I like to, you know, try and make people’s days a little better. And I was like, and maybe it’s not categorized as a mitzvah, which is like, you know, anonymous, not for any of your own benefit, an act of kindness. Because there’s always something in it. For me. It always makes me feel good. But is that such a bad thing? You know, if it feels good to do kindness, you’re gonna keep doing it.

Randi Rubenstein: Right. I mean, you know me and my joy agenda. Why do I have a joy agenda? I, anyone that I love, I have whatever the opposite of schadenfreude, freude freude. You know? Like where I, I love it. I love it, but I’ve also worked hard to feel purposeful in my life. I’m, I am pretty proud of myself. I mean, not always. Sometimes I beat myself, myself up. But,[00:30:00] 

Avery Rubenstein: Mm-hmm.

Randi Rubenstein: but for the most part, I mean, I have the thing that’s most important to me, which is, you know, a family that I always wanted, Like, so I have that family, I have really connected relationships with, you know, every member of our family. And so, including my siblings. And so that to me is like anything else I accomplish in life. Like it’s just, you know, gravy. It’s extra.

Avery Rubenstein: Mm-hmm. Yeah. You’ve accomplished your, your main mission. You, and also you do have schadenfreude. Only when you’re watching America’s Funniest Home Videos ’cause you love the videos of people falling down.

Randi Rubenstein: I really do. really do.

Avery Rubenstein: It is the only ones that make her cackle like a witch.

Randi Rubenstein: Oh, mean, how much do me and Wawa, it’s the two of us.

Avery Rubenstein: You guys love those. Those they never made me. I always, they always made me uncomfortable and you thought they were so funny.

Randi Rubenstein: It’s just the [00:31:00] one, I think it’s the ones where it’s just super klutzy. Because I could

Avery Rubenstein: It reminds you of yourself.

Randi Rubenstein: yes. I mean, you could spur off into a couple of, 

Avery Rubenstein: You should post that video for your moms, of the Ring or the, the Nest camera catching you just eating it in our old house. That video’s so funny.

Randi Rubenstein: It’s so good. It’s so, yeah. Our fa our family takes much joy in all of the moments. The

Avery Rubenstein: There’s that. There’s that video, and then there’s another video in our new house of her falling through a lawn chair.

Randi Rubenstein: They love it. They love it. Okay, so tell, so talk for a minute about, um. Oh, I know what I was gonna say. something that was interesting that they shared on the Dax Shepard podcast, I can’t remember who the expert was. Um, was [00:32:00] they have studied when someone, if there’s a group of people, the person who tells the joke or makes other people laugh, um, immediately establishes themself like status wise as a leader in the group.

Avery Rubenstein: Oh, that’s so interesting.

Randi Rubenstein: Isn’t that interesting?

Avery Rubenstein: Yeah, I haven’t, I haven’t heard that before. And we probably have talked about it in one of my classes, but it’s, yeah, someone who’s able to like direct attention. I mean, there is like an organizational element. I’m just playing off the top of my head, so don’t take what I say as like Bible, like, but yeah, I guess like someone who can command attention, who can direct emotion is someone that’s trusted.

And so much of our evolution goes back to sharing. Because there was such a big sharing [00:33:00] culture with hunter gatherers where it’s like everyone was contributing, same with chil, with childcare. Like everyone was taking care of everyone’s kids. Everyone was sharing their daily catch. Like it wasn’t like you caught food for your family and you were the only ones eating it.

And so what that makes me think of is like a sense of community. And like, Hey, this is a leader of our community who can make us feel good and can direct attention, and therefore that’s someone who has power.

Randi Rubenstein: And it’s also a shared experience. Like

Avery Rubenstein: Mm-hmm.

Randi Rubenstein: I’ve heard, I heard a movie maker at some point talking about you know, there’s something about seeing a, a movie in a movie theater and having that collective experience with strangers or going to a comedy show and it’s like everyone is, you know. And I think it’s also at sporting events when everyone is sharing a moment, and we’re all feeling sort of similar emotions at the same [00:34:00] time, there’s something that can feel almost spiritual about that. I think it makes

Avery Rubenstein: Right.

Randi Rubenstein: people feel the opposite of lonely, right?

Avery Rubenstein: I mean, think back to your favorite memory. Very rarely is that gonna be an individual memory where you weren’t with anyone else. Like we are not meant to be solitary creatures at all. This modern world does not exist for our evolution. That’s why so many people are depressed. Like we are meant to have these shared experiences. We are meant to live in close quarters, always with people. Even if you’re an introvert, like you can’t be alone all the time.

Randi Rubenstein: Mm-hmm.

Avery Rubenstein: just not how we’re designed.

Randi Rubenstein: Well, I think that’s why so many of us, I mean me included, like listen to podcasts or audio books where you like the personality of the person who’s sharing a message

Avery Rubenstein: Mm-hmm.

Randi Rubenstein: because it helps you to feel less alone, right? I mean, the best is like when I’m listening to a, a podcast, I don’t even know these [00:35:00] people and I’m laughing at the things they’re saying. 

Avery Rubenstein: Right. Like, like Smartless. Yeah. Listening to Smartless where it’s three guys bantering that are hilarious. Once again, making the group laugh. Like it makes me feel calm. Yeah. I’m like, this is what I’m missing. Especially like now I’ve been listening to a lot of Smartless. I think because I’m alone a lot here.

Just ’cause like my community that I was with for four years doesn’t live here and I’m only here for a year. It’s hard to make friends in a year, whatever. I’m fine guys. Um, I get lonely and so I’ve been listening to a lot of podcasts and it makes me feel better. Makes me feel, honestly like this sounds kinda lame, makes me feel like I did something with my day.

Randi Rubenstein: You did a lot yesterday. That black widow spider made me

Avery Rubenstein: Yeah, I saw the Black Widow matriarch yesterday. It was the biggest, I mean, it was definitely pregnant with like a million little black widow babies. You know, that song? Black Widow Baby. [00:36:00] Um,

Randi Rubenstein: Yeah. Yeah. She

Avery Rubenstein: Yeah, it was, it was freaky.

Randi Rubenstein: she had a good day. Working outside, being with animals, feeling purposeful.

Avery Rubenstein: It is big for me. I like to feel purposeful and I like to earn a shower.

Randi Rubenstein: Mm-hmm. You earned

Avery Rubenstein: Are my two things that make me feel accomplished.

Randi Rubenstein: So I just think this idea of, knowing that we can tap into this primal desire for being thought of having a high status in whatever group or tribe, we can tap into that with our kids, right? By explaining the why. Why we are gonna teach our kids to have good manners, why we’re gonna teach them not to be interrupters or demanding and to be appreciative when somebody takes the time to cook you a meal, right? Like why that’s important. Don’t you want to be thought of as the kind of person who. I [00:37:00] think that’s not being controlling,

Avery Rubenstein: No.

Randi Rubenstein: that’s safeguarding your kids so that they don’t end up alone and that they know how to get along

Avery Rubenstein: Right.

Randi Rubenstein: with other people in whatever group they wanna be a part of.

Avery Rubenstein: And I think a lot of parents get nervous about that, ’cause they’re like, well, I’m bringing ego into it. You know, like, like I don’t want my kids to constantly be thinking about what other people think about them and blah.

I’m like, well, that’s life sweetheart. Like, we do worry about what other people think about us. That’s part of living in a community. Like we’re literally bred for that. You’re supposed to care about what your neighbor thinks. And yeah, to an extent, like you don’t wanna be self-conscious all the time, but you wanna treat other people with kindness that you’re seen as kind, like it’s okay to bring ego into the conversation.

Randi Rubenstein: It’s okay to also be the kind of person who, has boundaries. Like being the kind of person who isn’t a doormat, doesn’t get used or walked all over. Like,

Avery Rubenstein: Mm-hmm.

Randi Rubenstein: Don’t you want other people to treat you with respect?[00:38:00] 

Avery Rubenstein: Right?

Randi Rubenstein: Don’t you want to be thought of as a good friend?

Avery Rubenstein: Mm-hmm.

Randi Rubenstein: Like, don’t you want to be the kind of person who. I think this is how we instill values and I think it’s very different than Don’t embarrass me.

Avery Rubenstein: Right.

Randi Rubenstein: That’s different. Right? That’s very different. It’s all about you. You’re shaming your kid rather than coaching them. How do you wanna be thought of? Like, you’re a fun little guy, you make friends easily. Don’t you want the family where you go to have a play date to, to say wonderful things about you?

Avery Rubenstein: Mm-hmm.

Randi Rubenstein: To feel respected and then to wanna give you respect in return. Isn’t that who you wanna be? Or not?

Avery Rubenstein: Right.

Randi Rubenstein: And have a conversation with your kids about it. Chances are they’re gonna be like, I want people to think nicely about me.

Avery Rubenstein: Most of the time people want that. Yeah. That’s like a pretty common desire is it’s kind of human nature to want [00:39:00] others to like you.

Randi Rubenstein: Yeah, to like you.

Avery Rubenstein: Mm-hmm.

Randi Rubenstein: And we can teach our kids, it’s okay, it’s normal. To think about these things. And also sometimes people aren’t gonna like you and it’s not, and you know, you can be clean and clear. It’s nothing you have done because you’ve worked really hard to show up. You know, showing other people respect, understanding how to get along with other people, not being selfish, being a sharer. And so when

Avery Rubenstein: Right.

Randi Rubenstein: somebody else doesn’t like you, like that’s their problem, not yours. You’ve done your part.

Avery Rubenstein: Right. The boundaries kind of come naturally when you’re proud of the person that you are.

Randi Rubenstein: That’s right. That’s a mic drop.

Avery Rubenstein: mom.

Randi Rubenstein: The boundaries come naturally when you’re proud of the person that you are. Which is, also ties into the, like when you’re proud of the person you are. It’s not about the parents saying, I’m so [00:40:00] proud of you for saying thank you. I’m so proud of you for having good manners.

Avery Rubenstein: So annoying.

Randi Rubenstein: No, if you see your kid having good manners, opening the door for an old person when you’re walking in or doing something kind, and then later on being like, I saw that.

Avery Rubenstein: Yeah. Just like a sneaky little, ’cause then you also don’t want them to like do everything for praise. But just a little bit of acknowledgement every once in a while. Like, Hey, I see you being kind. That’s awesome.

Mm-hmm.

Randi Rubenstein: When they do something kind for their siblings, you know, it’s like you don’t have to gush, but you can also like, give ’em a little wink. They, there’s so much in nonverbal communication. Like, I see you, I acknowledge you. And you don’t have to do it every time.

Avery Rubenstein: Mm-hmm.

Randi Rubenstein: It just sometimes feels good to be acknowledged.

Avery Rubenstein: Right, 

Randi Rubenstein: All right. What’s the main takeaway?

Avery Rubenstein: That it’s good to raise kind, [00:41:00] reciprocal humans in your image.

Randi Rubenstein: And, I think, we’re all just striving to be better

Avery Rubenstein: Right? Every generation heals a little.

Randi Rubenstein: We’re all striving to be better. And just like me, you know, you might get hung up sometimes on all the things that you haven’t done that you feel proud of. And like we’re growing, it’s like, what we focus on grows. So if you focus on all the things you haven’t done, chances are you’re gonna show up with that graspy insecure energy. Oh, didn’t you have something to say about the graspiness? I felt 

Avery Rubenstein: Did I?

Randi Rubenstein: These are your notes. Anyone who shows up with demanding energy is less likely to command respect from the group.

Avery Rubenstein: Hmm.

Randi Rubenstein: Those who were treasured by our ancestors were the ones who made the biggest contributions.

Avery Rubenstein: Yeah, like the givers were the ones who [00:42:00] had power because they were trusted. You know, anyone who was showing up saying, you know, acting like a king. Or a dictator. Saying more, more, more. Give me your share. Give me your portion. People are like, what the heck? No. Get outta here. You know? But if you’re showing up and you’re being like, Hey, look what I’ve brought you. People are gonna be like, Hey, have some of ours, you 

Randi Rubenstein: Yeah. Giving with boundaries. Not being an over giver to the point of feeling like a martyr, but like teaching how to give with boundaries. I mean, I think that these are hard concepts ’cause frankly, I think many of us are learning right alongside our kids, and

Avery Rubenstein: Right.

Randi Rubenstein: we just have to have grace for all of it.

Avery Rubenstein: Yeah, I agree.

Randi Rubenstein: Okay. That feels complete. All right. Thanks everyone for listening. Hope hopefully you got something out of this conversation.

Avery Rubenstein: Yeah. Thanks everyone.

Randi Rubenstein: Bye.

Thanks for listening today, guys. I hope you picked up some tips, tools, maybe some [00:43:00] baby steps for creating more balance and boundaries in your life. And I just wanted to let you know, if you want to continue moving the needle forward in creating this for yourself, having a happier household, I want you to go to my website and check out mastermindparenting.com. We have three beginning programs, and if you need some accountability and more support then please look for the one that would be a good fit for you.

And, as always, we’re on all the social channels under Mastermind Parenting, on Instagram it’s mastermind_parenting. And, you know, periodically I do pop up on different Instagram lives, Facebook lives where I give you teaching and coaching and I love engaging with you live to help you help your strong-willed kids so that they can feel better, because when they feel better they do better, and [00:44:00] I love, love, love getting to know you guys. 

So thanks for listening. If you like this podcast, please don’t forget to subscribe, rate and review. Super, super appreciative.