325: The Anxious Generation by Jonathan Haidt, with Randi and Avery…a must listen for every parent!

AUDIO MMP 325 Anxious Generation

Randi Rubenstein: [00:00:00] My name is Randi Rubenstein, and welcome to the Mastermind Parenting Podcast. At Mastermind Parenting, we’re on a mission to support strong-willed kids and the families that love them. 

Hi everyone. Welcome back to a great episode. It’s gonna be a great episode. Do you like how hopeful I am?

Avery Rubenstein: Yeah, that was great.

Randi Rubenstein: It’s Randi and Avery and we are here to talk about Jonathan Haidt’s groundbreaking book, it’s been on the New York Times bestseller list for I think over a year, and it’s called The Anxious Generation. I read it and then it, and then I had Avery read it ’cause I said, we gotta record a podcast about it.

Avery Rubenstein: Reading feels like cheating. I listened to it.

Randi Rubenstein: Well, you, it’s still the same

Avery Rubenstein: It’s different to me.

Randi Rubenstein: if you listen versus read.

Avery Rubenstein: Yeah. It requires less brain power. I can just do it when I’m driving.

Randi Rubenstein: You don’t take credit for it unless you actually read it with your eyes.

Avery Rubenstein: It’s weird, I like won’t add a book to my list unless I read it.

Randi Rubenstein: I’d [00:01:00] be screwed. I listen to so many books. Okay, so we’re gonna be talking about this book, so if you’re a parent of a kid or an educator with kids that at some point are going to have their own phones or maybe, what was the sta statistic about like 40% of two year olds have their own iPads?

Avery Rubenstein: Something wild like that.

Randi Rubenstein: Yeah, so if you have a kid that’s been on any kind of screen and at some point will own their own screen, this is going to be our Cliff notes about the book, the Anxious Generation.

Avery Rubenstein: Get rid of the iPad.

Randi Rubenstein: Don’t worry. We are not tech free people. We love our screens my kids love to say, remember blah, blah, blah. Remember how to Train Your Dragon? We watched that movie so many times. And what do I say when

Avery Rubenstein: Yeah, you’d say, I’ve never seen it. That was, that was you time. That was when I got to do [00:02:00] whatever I wanted.

Randi Rubenstein: That was my digital babysitter. That’s what I used for survival. I mean, just yesterday I was coaching a mom and she was talking about how, it was so interesting. How she has afterschool restraint collapse, basically, which is like she holds it together all day and then her kids come home and she feels like she’s on edge.

And I said, yeah, can you take a nap? And she was like, absolutely not. I have way too much to do. And so we, like, I coached her on this and I prescribed her a nap before her older two kids come home from school and her younger kid, stick ’em in front of a movie and take a nap. So we are not screen free people.

I even prescribe things because, you know, I play a parenting doctor on tv, so I prescribe, plugging your kid in when you need to have a nap, right? When you need to take care of your basic needs. [00:03:00] And reading this book, I’m so grateful to this guy, Jonathan Haidt, because it’s gonna be so much easier for all of you when your kids become teenagers.

Like you won’t have to feel the way I felt, which is, all of the information in here, I knew it. I knew that I didn’t want my kids to be on social media. I knew that I didn’t want them even to have their own phones, and it was a constant battle and I broke down and I let Avery have Instagram in eighth grade, which I think both of us can agree was a, 

Avery Rubenstein: A mistake. 

Randi Rubenstein: Major mistake. But I was that parent, that was all my friends have it and you know, I didn’t want my kids to feel like the freak. And so I held out and I held out, and then eventually I gave in on certain things. But the good news is, is [00:04:00] because of this book, because this is becoming a mainstream conversation, you’re not gonna have to be the only one. Your kids aren’t gonna have to be the only ones. I think this is gonna be become a movement. I think there’s gonna be more schools that end up going phone free.

unfortunately, my kids are the ones that, that the author quotes, what? What does he say about, yeah. What does

Avery Rubenstein: He says Gen Z is the anxious generation. Basically, and Gen Alpha is on their way, but there’s still time.

Randi Rubenstein: Yeah.

Avery Rubenstein: It’s interesting to, to be, I was just, I’ve been thinking about this, the, since I started reading it or listening to it, um,

Randi Rubenstein: Reading, air quotes.

Avery Rubenstein: Reading it, um, that, it’s interesting because I’m so close to being a teenager in age that I remem, but I’m such a different person than I was in eighth grade or even high school, that I remember exactly how it felt to be the only kid. And it [00:05:00] sucked. And now looking back, even though I am still a little bit screwed in terms of like, when I got social media and I didn’t wait till 16, which is the recommended age that he says, I was the only girl that wasn’t like sending inappropriate photos and getting wrapped up and all the stuff, I, I was a little bit of a late bloomer in a good way. Because you were able to hold out.

Randi Rubenstein: And for three years. I heard I’m the only kid in my entire middle school who doesn’t have Snapchat.

Avery Rubenstein: I hounded you.

Randi Rubenstein: Hounded. Set, set up, like had other people argue the point on your behalf.

Avery Rubenstein: Yeah. Like made a slideshow presentation.

Randi Rubenstein: She had cousins, younger cousins who had it. Why? Why Aunt Randi? Why won’t you let Avery have Snapchat? She had older cousins, you know, who could really like tell me how it’s not bad, and this is the way [00:06:00] all the teenagers communicate and that you know, it’s like none of us want our kids to feel other. And you know, when you’re making this choice, you’re othering your kid in some way.

Um, and I didn’t break down on Snapchat, and for the first time, I wanna say it was last week when you finished the book, you said, thank you for not allowing me to have Snapchat.

Avery Rubenstein: And I never, you waited for Snapchat until I was in high school and I never abused Snapchat. Like I was, what I wanted it for was what I used it for, which was like no one used it iMessage for some reason. Everyone used Snapchat and I just texted my friends on it, but it never was what other people used it for, what it was created for basically, which is like literal child, child pornography.

Randi Rubenstein: Well, and you told me, had you, did you read something or did they, does he talk about it in the book about the developer of Snapchat?

Avery Rubenstein: Uh, I think you told me about it.

Randi Rubenstein: Yeah, she said, she said something like, thank [00:07:00] you because you know what, so many people I know, they were just too young to have it, and so they were posting on social media, their every thought, they were falling into this, sending nudes to people, like they just didn’t have, they weren’t at that stage of development yet, where they have like 

Avery Rubenstein: Critical thinking skills. 

Randi Rubenstein: Yeah. With that sense of discernment of, hmm. 

Avery Rubenstein: Like Snapchat was like an illusion of this is how it was literally created to be, but like an illusion of safety of you open the picture and it’s gone. Well, yeah you get notified if there’s a screenshot, you can still take a screenshot. Like if someone’s sending around your nudes, they probably don’t give a shit that you saw that they took a screenshot, you know?

And there was ways to get around it. Like, I remember you could like go on airplane mode and take a screenshot and then turn off airplane mode and they wouldn’t get a not, like there was all sorts of creepy ways to get around it.

Randi Rubenstein: And I told you, I said, yeah, I remember like, because she was hounding me so much for Snapchat and I researched it and I, I think I just read some [00:08:00] article that talked about the guy who developed Snapchat, that he was a bad guy. He literally developed it as a way to, to get more inappropriate and naked pictures of children. And, and, and so I was like, okay, if the founder, the developer’s a bad guy, this is not good. And, and I was just like, no, I wouldn’t give in on that. But I thought, you know, back then, I mean, Instagram wasn’t, instagram got purchased by Facebook. And I wanna say it was maybe in 2012.

So Instagram wasn’t a huge, wasn’t what it is now, and at that time it was just like, oh, it’s just pictures there. People are just sending pictures and they’re doing posts. So I thought Instagram was probably the most innocent. And so finally when you were 14, when you were in eighth grade, I broke down and I said, okay, fine, you can have Instagram.

Avery Rubenstein: And I think I thought that it was the most innocent too. Which is like, I remember, I remember [00:09:00] my thought process, ’cause I guess it was so pivotal to me. Like I really remember how I felt about social media and to me it was just like, people just go out with their friends and they snap a picture and they post on Instagram like, what is wrong with that? I don’t understand why that’s a problem.

And part of the reason I’m glad you waited a little bit longer, not long enough, but a little bit longer was by the time I was 14, I knew what was cringey and people’s like, old Instagram accounts are super weird and I miss that stage.

Randi Rubenstein: Mm-hmm.

Avery Rubenstein: Not that that matters so much. Like, it’s not like a horrible digital footprint, but it, it was, it’s just embarrassing. But what I didn’t realize was that all of the famous people have Instagram accounts and that’s how I abused it, was, I would search Victoria’s Secret models. I would just stare at them and I was like, why don’t I look like that? 14-year-old. Why do I not look like a Victoria’s Secret angel? And then it gave me an eating disorder. [00:10:00] It made me so conscious of what I was putting into my body, and I was watching their diets leading up to the Victoria’s Secret fashion show, and they drank water for three days. And I’m like, I need to do that.

Randi Rubenstein: Hmm. And it’s amazing how quickly, like all the hard work can be undone. I didn’t even let anyone focus on your outer appearance. You know, like your whole childhood, you were sort of unaware. I mean, correct me if I’m wrong, but

Avery Rubenstein: I just didn’t think about it.

Randi Rubenstein: You didn’t think about it. It was like anytime that anyone was like, oh my gosh, she’s so cute. I, I was like, oh, and she loves to read and she can run fast. Like I overdid it, it was obnoxious, because I so didn’t want you to be, you know, for you to go down that rabbit hole. So I worked so hard to make your worth not about your external beauty. But these algorithms and, and these platforms are so powerful I mean, that’s what the whole [00:11:00] Facebook, Facebook whistle blowing case was all about was they have had teams of psychologists studying human behavior and, and once it became about likes and like, like they have studied us and they, and kids who are, you know, a at least a decade, maybe more away from having their brains fully developed, they, you know, they’re so susceptible to be getting, to be manipulated.

Avery Rubenstein: And we don’t know, like there’s, it’s like vaping, you know, we don’t know the long-term effects, but guess what? I’m the long-term effects.

Randi Rubenstein: Mm-hmm.

Avery Rubenstein: even. Though I feed my body now and if I post on Instagram, which is very rare, I turn off the likes and comments so I don’t even think about it. ‘Cause I used to really think about it, and think about how many followers I had and my ratio of followers to following and whatever. Be, even though I don’t care about that anymore, I still think about my appearance a lot. And that’s being a [00:12:00] woman in society. I mean, there’s a lot of other factors other than social media. But it started with social media.

Randi Rubenstein: Yep. And it just, and, and once you started searching for those, those Victoria’s Secret models, I’m sure the algorithm just started feeding you, feeding you, feeding

Avery Rubenstein: My whole explore page was just perfect models. I was like a teenage boy.

Randi Rubenstein: Okay, so I’m gonna read a little, I’m gonna, I’m gonna read a little bit about, just to give y’all the Cliff notes in case you don’t read it, but also maybe just to like wet your whistle to, to get you interested in reading it. ‘Cause I think this is a really important thing for any parent. And frankly like, i’m so happy Avery read it. I want her younger brother to read it. Um, like I would love both of her brothers to read it. I just think this is valuable information. And he is, he takes a strong stance. So he says,

“The reality check. What happened in 2012? [00:13:00] Um, let’s start with what we know and why 2012 was such a crucial year in the story. There was a researcher named, named Jean Twang. Or Jean Twinge was the first to graph out these large data sets and show that all of a sudden around 2012, there’s a hockey stick pattern and all the numbers begin to go up dramatically. We’re talking about rates of depression, anxiety, self-harm, and suicide.

Here are the stark numbers to tell the story. Emergency room visits for self harm among 10 to 14 year olds rose 188% for girls and 48% for boys. Suicide rates for the same cohort rose 167% for girls and 91% for boys. Boys saw 161% increase in documented cases of major depression amongst those ages 12 to 17 while girls saw 145% increase. Among college students, anxiety cases jumped 134% and [00:14:00] depression 106%.”

So the hopeful message, everyone, is that this is not a mystery. Like the I, there’s really no argument. It was, you know, like a hockey stick. The, these numbers increase so dramatically. It’s like we don’t have to really question. This is, you know, the whole, the whole talk about mental illness. It’s like, think about anyone here who’s listening in your middle school years and your teenage years. No one ever is like, or that I know is like, I loved middle school. It’s, and it’s the rare person that even really actually loved being a teenager, loved high school.

You know. It’s like. Any, I think it’s why social issues with kids like, who just said with at lunch, you know why it gets par, why, you know, you, you even experience it with [00:15:00] Corey when Corey’s going through a little bit of a friend situation, and you’ve said to me, you’re like, I’m not gonna be able to be a parent. 

Avery Rubenstein: I like, can’t handle it. When there’s any part of him that feels discomfort.

Randi Rubenstein: Right or not confident or feeling dissed by friends or just all the things we go through during adolescence. Because it was so painful when you went through it. Right. And I think that’s, so many parents feel that way. It’s like, you know that whole question of who just went with at lunch, who’d you play with at recess? Oh, so-and-so’s having a party. Are you getting invited? Oh, we didn’t get invited. He didn’t get invited to be on the select baseball team. Like all those little things that caused.

Avery Rubenstein: You don’t even realize that it’s empathy.

Randi Rubenstein: it’s empathy. It’s actually like, I don’t want my kids to experience the pain that I experience. And no one’s consciously doing this, but it’s like such, you know how we, we think we’re thinking animals, but we’re feeling animals and, and we’re so driven by those feelings and those painful feelings that we [00:16:00] don’t even realize how much of how much we’re hooked into that.

So now imagine if you were going through all of those hard feelings during adolescence, and it was so intensified by, this, you know, constant barrage of did that, I get the likes? Do, you know, what party was I not included in on? Um, you know, it’s just like so in your face. I mean, no wonder that 2012 is such the demarcation of, social media became a thing for teens and, you know, it went beyond just Facebook. Now all of a sudden it was Instagram and that really appealed to teens and then Snapchat came along. 

Avery Rubenstein: I was just, uh, saw, speaking of social media, a girl on TikTok saying she went to this college like event and was, she went by herself and she was like eating, and there was not enough chairs. So she was standing up, eating and she was [00:17:00] like, you know what? This is embarrassing, and I don’t know anyone, no one’s gonna see this. It’s okay. And she talked herself out of her anxiety, and then a video of her sitting, standing up and eating by herself got 3 million likes on TikTok. Like it’s, no embarrassment is private. Every exclusion is public. It’s criminal.

Like, of course, and you know, there’s the, I’m sure all the social media companies that are trying to drive their addiction home and, you know, support their product are saying, you know, it’s causation versus correlation and you don’t know what’s actually causing depression in these teens. And the climate crisis coincides with this time and all of these world events, every generation has dealt with wars and messed up stuff that’s happening in the world. Like, it’s so obvious, and from my experience and what my friends have experienced, it’s direct depression, direct anxiety, straight from these social medias, like there’s no [00:18:00] argument against it.

Randi Rubenstein: Well, and we haven’t even talked about the addictive aspect of it all.

Avery Rubenstein: It’s meant, it’s literally a drug.

Randi Rubenstein: Right.

Avery Rubenstein: And I still feel it.

Randi Rubenstein: Right. It’s interesting because everyone wants to blame everything on COVID. The truth is, is that kids were connecting, you know, through the video games, through their phones. Like that is how they were socializing and that is what came out of COVID. And so maybe that is what intensified things so much. But this was already like the train had already left the station, it was already a problem.

Avery Rubenstein: I was grown by COVID. COVID, I was 18. Like, and it definitely made things worse. And, but because I think that if there hadn’t been that social, like media aspect, it could have turned into more like playing outside. And [00:19:00] like there could have, there could have been more play.

Randi Rubenstein: Mm-hmm.

Avery Rubenstein: But it was not because of COVID. All of my issues that stemmed from social media were way before COVID.

Randi Rubenstein: Mm-hmm. and you know, and I think with, Instagram and TikTok reels. Like, what did Corey just say last night? We were watching. I’m not even gonna say what he was watching with me. We’ll just give the initials G G. Yeah. Um, my 19-year-old son was watching Gilmore Girls with his mom. 

Avery Rubenstein: That’s the best show. 

Randi Rubenstein: And enjoying it.

Um, and he, I kept seeing him go on his phone. He was watching the show and he’d be laughing and then I’d see him like, check something on his phone and then do something on his phone. And I was like, you know that book that I want you to read that me and Avery just read, “read,” um, I said, they talk about what you’re doing right now using multiple screens at the same time that like, it’s actually [00:20:00] like the most destructive thing you can do. You, you’re totally messing up your, he goes, oh, I’m dopamine maxing.

Avery Rubenstein: Baxter clowns me for double screening every time. My, my boyfriend, when I, I always do this. ‘Cause I’ll watch a show for some reason. I do this thing where I like to watch shows. I’ve watched many, many, many times ’cause I like to re re uh, relive the joy. And I obviously don’t need to pay close attention to it ’cause I know exactly what’s happening. And so I’ll like play a game on my phone. I never like do social media when I’m doing that, but I’ll play a game on my phone and he’ll come and he’ll be like, are you double screening again? And it makes me stop. And I’ve, this book made me more conscious of it and I’ve stopped doing it because it’s embarrassing, but it’s, I’m very guilty of it.

Randi Rubenstein: Yeah, because when you’re double screening, you are dopamine maxing. But I said, and what I said to him, I was, I, we started laughing, of course. He said it, and we both [00:21:00] started laughing and I was like, I, today, I was like, what was that term you used last night? And he was like, oh, dopamine maxing. And I was like,

Avery Rubenstein: He has so many good terms.

Randi Rubenstein: I know.

And um, but that I said, but the thing is, is that it messes up your dopamine, right? All the dopamine maxing, like the, the scrolling through TikTok reels and going reel, reel, reel. Like that’s why everyone’s attention span is that of a gnat, because it messes with your natural dopamine levels.

Okay, so I’m gonna read a little bit more about what he says, um, because the thing is, you guys, if he says like, it’s not a mystery. So what, because we know what the problem is, like we actually can work on a solution to the problem. And we don’t have to argue. We don’t have to like, go back and forth and are like, this is the facts all point to this place, which is our kids are too plugged [00:22:00] in.

And you know what? He didn’t talk about very much here, and I haven’t heard it as, uh, as a part of the conversation. The truth is, so many of us, we’re so plugged in, the adults are so plugged in, and so if you are wanting to scroll on your social media or, you know, communicate with your friends or watch whatever you are watching. I mean, how easy is it to let your kids do the same? Because then your drug of choice, you’re able to, you know, shoot up right there with your kids in the room and, and so everyone’s doing, everyone’s hooked. And so like a lot of parents get so concerned about their kids being too plugged in, but they’re not talking about how plugged in they are.

Avery Rubenstein: Right. I, I was thinking that a lot when I was listening to the book because, like, I think my generation when we’re parents, there’s a, a group hatred of iPad kids. It, [00:23:00] it’s, uh, very annoying when you walk into a, like any sort of establishment, even if the kid’s being quiet, you just know Cocomelon is playing on their goddamn iPad and they’re just locked in at a table and it’s just like aggravating to see.

And so I think I have a feeling my generation will end that, but we’re so addicted and so it’s gonna be interesting to see like, the almost hypocrisy of my kids aren’t allowed to have technology, but I can’t get my eyes away from a screen.

Randi Rubenstein: Well, that’s the thing. That’s the, everybody thinks they’re gonna be the best parent until they become a parent. And

Avery Rubenstein: And then you want something to distract your kid.

Randi Rubenstein: Yeah, and then, I mean, they do what we model. So if we’re, if, if our dopamine has, or the baseline has been messed up and so we cannot be present. So we just want the screen. Want the screen. We’re not actually with our kids when we’re with them, we’re just like trying to sneak the screen. The kids feel that, and so they [00:24:00] feel that lack of presence and then they’re more, they’re like, when can I watch a show? When can I play a game? When can I do the thing? When can I have my own phone? You know, because I think they feel that lack of presence. So I don’t really think that the cycle will be different or change unless your generation, does the work of unaddicting yourselves.

Avery Rubenstein: Right.

Randi Rubenstein: That’s the only way, because everybody thinks, everyone’s like, oh, when I have kids, they’re never gonna talk to me like that. When I have kids, they’re gonna, and then you have kids and you’re stressed out and you just do the things that you said you weren’t gonna do. I mean, I hear that over and over and over again. So I think that’s the only way is if you guys get to a place where you’re like, screw the man who made us addicted to this, we’re taking the power back and we’re gonna put people before technology.

You know, that’s one of the mantras in our family is people before technology. And you know what, if we wanted our kids to put people before technology and I got [00:25:00] called out on it many a time of not doing that. But like when dad was sneaking his little, I had his iPad at the table watching surfing or his phone watching surfing. Do you remember what I would do to call him out on it?

Avery Rubenstein: He would always watch surfing. What’d you say? I don’t

Randi Rubenstein: It was a song that I sang

Avery Rubenstein: What was it?

Randi Rubenstein: Cats in the Cradle.

Avery Rubenstein: Oh yeah,

Randi Rubenstein: You don’t remember that? Like every,

Avery Rubenstein: I kind of do.

Randi Rubenstein: every single time I’d see him with a screen at the table, like I’m not his parent, so I’m not gonna like give him a whole lecture, but I would just, I like, it’s kind of like Baxter saying, oh, two screens. And I would, I would start singing cat’s in the cradle and the silver spoon, do a little humming situation.

Avery Rubenstein: He’d get all annoyed and shut his iPad.

Randi Rubenstein: Yeah. It was just like a little reminder of, you know, how are we gonna expect these kids not to bring their phones and their screens to the table, or to put [00:26:00] human beings before,

Avery Rubenstein: Well, we made that argument. I remember seeing you scroll and being like, well, you’re allowed to be on your phone. And you’re like, I’m the mom.

Randi Rubenstein: When? When was that?

Avery Rubenstein: Sometimes in the car. Sometimes, I forget when, maybe at the dinner table. Not often.

Randi Rubenstein: Yeah. I don’t

Avery Rubenstein: But I do remember saying that.

Randi Rubenstein: I don’t remember that. Maybe it’s selective memory. Because I remember in the car, like from the time y’all were little, it was before social media or anything. I just made a rule for myself that I wasn’t even allowed to have phone calls in the car because I wanted to be present.

Avery Rubenstein: I have a core memory of learning how to spell our last name from when you would answer phone calls in the car. ‘Cause you’d say R-U-B-E-N-S-T-E-I-N.

Randi Rubenstein: Right, but was it always in the car?

Avery Rubenstein: But I was young.

Randi Rubenstein: Or just when you were with me? 

Avery Rubenstein: I don’t remember. I remember in the car, I was like, oh, I know how to spell our last name,

Randi Rubenstein: Right. If I was

Avery Rubenstein: But I must have been really young ’cause I didn’t know how to spell our last name.

Randi Rubenstein: Because I think it was like middle [00:27:00] elementary school that all of a sudden it just dawned on me and I was like, they own me from 3:00 PM until 8:00 PM. Like, I can be on my phone as much as I want, except for when I pick them up until dinner. And I made a conscious effort and I remember I used to have to put my phone like in a drawer, like in another room. So it was, and I had to break myself of that habit.

Um, and then I remember one time I was picking Corey up. He was in fourth grade. And I had a meeting, or you know, a phone call every Tuesday at, you know, the time that, and he, I remember him and I was like, breaking my rule. But it was for a meeting, it was for work, you know, and I was, you know, convinced myself that I was so important. And he said, when we got home, could you have somebody else pick me up on Tuesdays?

Avery Rubenstein: Aw.

Randi Rubenstein: I was like, why? I can pick you up? And he’s like, but it’s not really, I don’t really like having to get in the car and be so quiet. Why don’t you just take your call and you could just, maybe I could get a ride with Susie [00:28:00] or you know, there were other options. He knew it and I.

Avery Rubenstein: Right. And it’s the worst to get in the car when you’re all excited and wanna tell someone about your day and having to be quiet.

Randi Rubenstein: Right. And in my mind I was justifying, I was like, you know, I’m working, I’m trying to do all the things. It’s just one day a week, the other days. And I ended up bowing outta that call. Cause he totally called me out on it. I’ve used that example a lot of times.

Um, but I think that’s the thing is like we get, you know, reading The Anxious Generation. You know, spoiler alert, it’s gonna make you anxious. I mean, it made me anxious. It’s making a lot of my moms anxious.

Avery Rubenstein: It’s a bit of a, it’s a bit of a bummer.

Randi Rubenstein: Let me also give them some background on what Jonathan Haidt calls the perfect storm. He says, he tells two interconnected stories. The first is about the decline of the play-based childhood, which began in the 1980s. Oh, I thought that, I thought that history was really interesting.

Avery Rubenstein: Mm-hmm. 

Randi Rubenstein: You know, just like what happened in the eighties and because [00:29:00] I grew up then I was like, wow. Um, and that it, so what happened in the eighties and how it accelerated into the nineties, and um, and the second story is about the rise of the phone-based childhood, which began in the late two thousands and accelerated in the early 2000 tens.

So what happened in the eighties and nineties for anybody who grew up then? Um. They started like America’s Most Wanted. There was this famous story about Adam Walsh, who was a kid that got abducted. Um, it became mass, there was like kids picture missing children’s pictures on the, on milk cartons. That was a big thing.

Um, so it became this mass hysteria that our kids were not safe. Like if your kids were playing outside, somebody could just come and kidnap them and snatch ’em up. Or if your kids, you know, where ever outta your sight. Like they could be stolen, they could be kidnapped. Um, but the truth of the matter is there’s this woman who he talks about a lot and her movement’s [00:30:00] called Free Range Parenting, I think.

Avery Rubenstein: Something like that.

Randi Rubenstein: And there was a New York Times article written about her, I remember years ago. Which was it? I think it was, it was like, it was titled like The Worst Mom in America because she let, she taught her 7-year-old how to use the subway by himself and let him go on the subway by himself. And they called her the worst mom in the in America.

And so she fought back and she’s now created this whole movement about how even in the eighties and nineties we were living in a safer society than ever before. The statistics do not back up the hysteria. And so it was much more dangerous in the forties and in the fifties. And you know, even before that it was much more dangerous and kids had so much freedom and um, and so as our society continues to get safer. Because, there started being news coverage 24/7 [00:31:00] CNN came to be. And so what is, what, you know, what’s on the news? Well, it’s, there’s stories of bad shit happening, which causes mass hysteria.

Avery Rubenstein: Uhhuh it’s like, um, recently with all the airplanes, like the news. Because it gets clicks, have been pushing, ’cause there was that one really horrible plane crash in DC, and all of a sudden they were like, whoa, this got so much attention. It’s all, they’re all businesses. And so they’ve pushed every single plane crash that is happening around the world and all these private planes and like, sorry, most people aren’t on those. And all of a sudden people aren’t flying.

And it’s like, no, you guys don’t understand. Like, it’s not like all of a sudden all of these planes are failing. It’s the same amount as always. It’s just they’re giving it more coverage and so now they’re instilling this fear in everyone. Like it’s not, it’s not actually representative of what’s going on.

Randi Rubenstein: Mm-hmm. But it’s just [00:32:00] like the algorithm. If you get fed Victoria’s Secret models and diets and, all of a sudden that becomes your familiar, that becomes the norm. And you’re like, why don’t I look like that? Everyone looks like that. What’s wrong with me? It’s the same thing if all of a sudden every time we turn on the TV or or on your device and you’re getting fed a story about something terrible happening, well, it’s going to skew your perspective.

And so that started happening in the eighties and nineties where, we thought our kids were unsafe. we thought we needed to take away their freedom. And so he says, you know, it really started back then, right? And he really goes into a lot of child development about how important it is not just for kids to play, but for kids to play unsupervised. Like for,

Avery Rubenstein: It’s my favorite part of the book.

Randi Rubenstein: Talk about that.

Avery Rubenstein: Well, it was because it was all evolutionary [00:33:00] based. So last night Baxter and I are watching this new show, it’s called Department Q, and there’s a therapist and she’s advising this guy on his teenage son. And, and the guy’s like, he hates me. And she said, well, he’s supposed to hate you because they need to want to leave you. Your kids are supposed to wanna go on their own.

And so there’s all of these different stages of development that now, we’re missing the mark because we’re not letting our kids have the freedom, which includes like leaving the house by yourself. That’s an important step. Um, taking care of other kids, giving your kids responsibility, that’s gonna teach them responsibility. How are they supposed to learn responsibility if you’re not giving them the opportunity?

Randi Rubenstein: Let me pause on that. I remember a story that Michaeleen shared with me, um, about when she was with the tribe in Tanzania and how they went for like a hunt. They were just like going as a group. Like they would meet in the morning and they would go on a hunt, you know, for a few hours. And [00:34:00] there was like, a 10 month old baby and the baby’s 4-year-old sibling strapped the baby to his back and he carried the baby on the hunt. Right.

I mean, we can’t imagine, and, and when I tell parents, and I’ve been telling a lot of them recently, who have a lot of sibling rivalry between their kids, like a seven or an 8-year-old and a four or 5-year-old, or a three and a 4-year-old and like a six to 7-year-old. And I’m like, you need to put the older kid to work. That child is your mom’s helper, helper. They are reading to their sibling, they’re helping put them to bed.

And I’ve had a lot of moms say, but I want my kids to be able to be kids. And isn’t that lazy parenting?

Avery Rubenstein: No, that’s part of being a kid.

Randi Rubenstein: And I’m like, are you kidding? It’s not lazy parenting. It’s a part of human development and like seven or eight year olds, 6, 7, 8 year olds, [00:35:00] they want to be helpful. If they have too much time and they don’t have opportunities to be helpful to help take care of their younger siblings, then they’re gonna make problems because they got too much time on their hands. And they wanna interact with their younger siblings, and the younger siblings wanna interact with them, and then they end up interacting with with each other in a violent way because we haven’t given them direction and a path.

Anyway, okay, keep going.

Avery Rubenstein: Basically she talks, he talks a lot about how play is really important, how learning consequence is really important. Like if you don’t let your kid get hurt, obviously you don’t want your kid to crack their head open. I did that. Um, but if your kid falls out of a tree that they weren’t supposed to climb, like they’re supposed to push the boundaries of authority, they’re supposed to learn what hurts. They’re supposed to try things that are too hard for them. Because how are they gonna grow?

And all of this restrictive [00:36:00] parenting, it’s stunting kids and it’s creating a generation of people like me, where you’re filled with anxiety and you’re scared to try new things and you’re scared to step outside your comfort zone. And the reason why he brings it up so much is ’cause when you pair that with social media, it’s creating really anxious humans.

Randi Rubenstein: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Because what you experience when you do something hard, and maybe even a little risky is, afterwards, that sense of accomp, like we’re robbing kids. That sense of accomplishment, that sense of like all, all the different things. Like those are skills that, you know, it’s like building stress tolerance. You know, when you have a kid that’s just like crying because an assignment’s too hard or they’re quitting on every single thing that gets too hard, it’s because they never had an opportunity to build up that stress tolerance and to, to do the hard thing and to, to, to sit with that, that frustration and that discomfort, right?

Avery Rubenstein: You can’t be brave without [00:37:00] fear. But it’s, but people aren’t learning that. They’re not learning how to be brave. They’re just learning the fear and that you can avoid whatever’s making you fearful. Or you’ll have someone to protect you from whatever’s making you fearful instead of confronting it head on. And so now you have this generation of people who, even in like the job sphere, like yeah, there’s not a lot of jobs right now and it’s really tough and people are scared to put themselves out there. They’re scared of failure.

Randi Rubenstein: And a lot of times they don’t have the skills because, you know. I’m gonna get into a little bit more about what he talks about what really happened in 2012 that’s so significant. But if you’re, if you don’t have, like, how do you build mastery at anything? Like how do you build mastery at communication skills at, you know, reading someone else’s cues, being a person who knows how to read the room and pick up on somebody else’s vibe?

Well, you gotta get those reps in. [00:38:00] And if all you are is on your device, scrolling, scrolling, scrolling, not taking any risks, right? Like, like what is it like to make eye contact with a boy that you think is cute or a girl that you think is cute at a party? Like it’s vulnerable. It’s risky. But if you don’t ever have to like build up your stress tolerance because you’re just, being able to look at that person on a screen and they don’t even know if you’re looking at them necessarily. Right. You don’t even have to like it or hard it, but you can stare at it. You can pick it apart, versus just stealing a glance at a party like the stealing a glance is an important part of being a human being.

And so if you haven’t had, you know, opportunities to go through all these awkward, uncomfortable, you know, do I ask this person, Hey, do you wanna hang out later? Or, you know, even friends. Hey, you know, like, like being able to go over to a friend and [00:39:00] just get, getting that interaction where you’re having to find your brave and to do those things well, now all of a sudden find you find yourself 10, 15 years later in a job and you don’t have, you don’t have interpersonal skills.

Avery Rubenstein: Right.

Randi Rubenstein: You know, and it feels, it, it’s anxiety provoking to even know how to interact in a meeting or to be part of a team. Or what about when a coworker is, you know, like it, they’re difficult to work with and you know, like.

Avery Rubenstein: He said a lot of the kids, you know, that he took all those polls throughout the book and he said, um, a lot of kids say they’re scared to talk to people ’cause they’re scared they’re gonna mess up air quotes. And it’s almost like we now, because it’s not normalized to just talk to people and talk to strangers, and there’s a fear of strangers. It’s like we overthink every single interaction and I’ll find myself doing this. I do it less because honestly, ever since I started listening to [00:40:00] this book, I’ve been trying to talk to strangers more.

Randi Rubenstein: Mm-hmm.

Avery Rubenstein: And I have been, but it’s like, I didn’t say that the one I where I wanted to, where I accidentally combined two words and made a fake word or you know, I messed up that interaction. And people like really let it get them down and keep it, keep themselves from trying again. They’re like, I messed up. I’m never gonna try again.

Um, another thing that was cool when I was listening to this book was, you know, I was listening to it in the car and like when I was cleaning, so I had space in between when I would think about it. And there was one part where he said, not only are we losing interpersonal skills, but we’re losing like the trades. ‘Cause people aren’t trying things and they’re not finding these interests. And I got to look at the difference between me and Baxter, in our childhood and the things that he’s interested in.

And for me, like I grew up in a big city. I definitely played, but not like he did. You know, he grew up in the mountains and got to, was outside all the time [00:41:00] and was biking to school and like, he just likes doing a lot of things. Like he likes to fix his bike and he likes to build things. And he got interested in all these trades because he had the experience to learn them. And it’s like people aren’t doing that anymore. They’re not applying themselves.

Randi Rubenstein: Isn’t the cell coverage like pretty crappy?

Avery Rubenstein: And they don’t have, they don’t have cell phone service. Mm-hmm.

Randi Rubenstein: Such a gift.

Okay, so let’s talk about what made 2012 so significant.

“Apple introduced the the first iPhones in 2007, and by 2012, about 50% of American adults owned a smartphone. But it wasn’t just about the phones themselves, it was about what they enabled. Until,”

Wait, hold on. I just lost my place. Um. Talk amongst yourselves.

“Until around 2012, we called these things social networking systems. Facebook, Friendster, MySpace. These were all [00:42:00] called social networking systems. They were ways to connect people. But then in 2009 it, that’s when you get the retweet button, the like button. So social media itself changes a lot around this time between 2009 and 2011. After that, we call them social media platforms.

Think about that distinction for a moment. Would you want your child to grow up with a device that lets her talk to or text her close friends, and you? Sure. Or would you rather your child grow up on a social media platform performing for hours a day and watching the performance of performances of others, including a lot of strangers?

Um, oh, this is, this is kind of nerve wracking, and anxious anxiety producing, uh, data.

“The data shows up exactly how dramatically childhood change. In the US, the proportion of young people between the ages of 13 and 17 were who have a smartphone has reached 89% more than [00:43:00] doubling over a six year period. Moreover, 70% of teenagers use social media multiple times per day up from a third of teens in 2012. So, um. In 2009, only about half of teens used social media every day in 2017. 85% use it daily. That’s not a gradual change. That’s a complete transformation of how young people spend their time.

And we can see the impact on their real world connections. Since 1976, the number of times per week teens go out with friends and without their parents held basically steady for nearly 30 years. In 2004, in, in 2004, it slid a bit. Then in 2012, it nosedived. It was just like a black diamond ski slope straight down.”

Avery Rubenstein: Bummer.

Randi Rubenstein: it, I mean, and then it just starts talking about how it’s mental distress increased, in not just America, but they talk about how it was also in Canada, it was also in Europe. So this is, this is [00:44:00] global. it’s not just us.

And you know, some of the things that he talks about in terms of like what are practical solutions, it’s schools. The phone free school revolution, which that was something I was fighting for however long. I remember when you started middle school, everyone had a Mac, everyone had a computer. Remember how you had to wait till your bat mitzvah to get your own computer? And I made you use like the hunky one

Avery Rubenstein: That school computer.

Randi Rubenstein: That, I mean,

Avery Rubenstein: Yeah. That sucked.

Randi Rubenstein: it sucked, but you know what, and everyone started middle school at your school, and it’s like, I mean, obviously this is not the case for everyone, but it was, you were in a very privileged, you know, culture.

Avery Rubenstein: And I remember feeling like a brat, because I was like, I don’t wanna ask for a MacBook, but like, I, I felt, I was like, I need one. Like, the school made us need one and having, honestly having to get the school computer was a hindrance.

Randi Rubenstein: Right. And they, and

Avery Rubenstein: [00:45:00] it got in the way.

Randi Rubenstein: I said, I mean, I had to like meet with the school and I was like, I do not wanna give my sixth grader. I didn’t wanna give you that, you know, that device, I didn’t wanna give you that access, but it’s the same thing. It was the same thing about phones. It was the same thing about all of it.

And they were like, but they’ll need that for certain assignments. Like the school. I was like, what is wrong with y’all? And it, I was the only one. And you had to like check out their computer every day and it was a big thing.

Avery Rubenstein: And the charger was like this big of a block attached to like nine feet of cord. I had to like get a big backpack.

Randi Rubenstein: They didn’t understand it, and I just kind of stuck to my guns. But then I was like, you know what, fine. I just at least wanted you to have some perspective. So I said, you can get a, a MacBook for your bat mitzvah present. Um, like, you know, all the family members, you can tell all the family members that you would love [00:46:00] for all them to go in on a group gift and whatever.

But it was like just, I just wanted you to have to wait, and to like experience what it was like to not have that device. I mean, I really wanted you to learn without the devices at all, but the schools were like, we require, like, we’re a progressive school. And so they required it. And then they did put some rules in place in terms of like, remember how middle school they made y’all leave your phones in your lockers?

Avery Rubenstein: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. And if they caught you, you’d get lunch detention.

Randi Rubenstein: Yeah. But then in high school you could have your phone everywhere.

Avery Rubenstein: Yeah, in class. I mean, they didn’t love it, but like everyone was on their phone in class.

Randi Rubenstein: Everyone was on their phone. You were all on your screens. How many times did you tell me that you had binged a show on Netflix because school was really boring? Like they didn’t.

Avery Rubenstein: Well, that was in like Judaics.

Randi Rubenstein: But still they didn’t have, like, why are kids, why is your network not outfitted in a way that kids can’t [00:47:00] just watch shows on, on whatever platform they want to?

Avery Rubenstein: I literally would sit there and watch TV.

Randi Rubenstein: Yeah, yeah. And y’all knew, you know, and you were more screen savvy than most of the teachers, so you knew how to change screens and,

Avery Rubenstein: Yeah. And it was easy to cheat. Like I remember there was this one test in Judaics where it was like a computer test and everyone had just had the study guide pulled up. I personally, that was like the one test. I was like, I can’t, it was so easy. I was like, why would I cheat? And I did fine, but the people got busted for it and I didn’t. I wasn’t a liar ’cause I was able to say I didn’t cheat. But like it was so easy. It made our learning less productive.

Randi Rubenstein: Um, and what Jonathan Haidt says is he says, um, One of the most hopeful things he’s learned is

“how quickly things can turn around when we take action. Schools that have implemented phone free policies are seeking remarkable [00:48:00] changes, not just in academic performance, but in how kids interact with each other. They’re making eye contact again, they’re having conversations at lunch, they’re playing games, telling jokes, and forming real connections. It’s like watching flowers bloom after a long winter.”

It’s like. Corey, after he went, you know, last summer on that Knowles trip where he was complete, they didn’t have any technology. They were camping out in the wilderness for a month, and that was his favorite thing, that he actually, for one whole month just interacted with other human beings.

And I remember the biggest bummer was, was when it was over, they had like a night back in a lodge. And so they’d formed all these really strong friendships and he, like one of the guys that was like part of his main little friend squad, um, he said as soon as that kid got his phone back, he was a different kid. Like basically they didn’t hear from him. Like he was like, we had been a little [00:49:00] foursome. And the minute that kid got his phone back, we became a threesome. He, yeah.

Avery Rubenstein: That’s so sad.

Randi Rubenstein: Mm-hmm.

Avery Rubenstein: Yeah. My, my favorite, I, I mean, I liked the whole, like, you know, put, have a phone bin and whatever, but one of, you know, the whole last hour and a half of the book is, is solution oriented. And my favorite one was, um, have play spaces for kids even in high school. Like, he was like, why are we getting rid of recess? And I remember feeling that way when I went to middle school, I was like, no recess. What is 

Randi Rubenstein: Where do you play? 

Avery Rubenstein: Prison? 

Randi Rubenstein: Mm-hmm.

Avery Rubenstein: And, and he talked about, he was like, if you told prisoners that you were limiting their outdoor time or not giving them any outdoor time, they were like, I would kill myself. Like, I need that time. And it was like, we’re not giving our kids time to play outside. They have 30 minutes of lunch where they’re shoving their faces full of food as fast as they can and to, so that they can get their little bit of free [00:50:00] time. Like, it’s so just not how humans are supposed to function.

Randi Rubenstein: Mm-hmm.

Avery Rubenstein: You know, cogs in a machine type of vibe.

Randi Rubenstein: Mm-hmm. You know, he talks a lot about, going from a phone-based or a screen-based childhood back to a play-based childhood. And also knowing that like, I don’t think anyone wants their kids to grow up too fast. But the interesting thing is, is that, they grow up so much faster when they have these devices. Like you’ve noticed this about like, like 10-year-old girls who are dressing like the way y’all dressed in high school.

Avery Rubenstein: Or now. Or in college, I mean.

Randi Rubenstein: Mm-hmm.

Avery Rubenstein: I don’t really dress like I did in college anymore. But, um, yeah, like wearing like the same outfits that I would wear as a 21-year-old and wearing more makeup than I wear as a 21-year-old. And I love makeup. Like it’s weird [00:51:00] and not how little girl, especially little girls are supposed to be functioning and it’s really honestly sad to see.

And another thing that that reminded me of is, it’s crazy how we have this fear and parents have this fear of letting their kids be outside of for fear of a predator or something like that, but it’s so much more likely that your kid will fall victim to a predator on the Internet.

Randi Rubenstein: Yeah,

Avery Rubenstein: So much more likely. Like significantly. So he talks about it.

Randi Rubenstein: I mean he talks about how you have to sign some, or like you, you just have to click something that you’re 13, you’re 13 or older. But like there’s no one checking. And the 13 or older, like who determined like.

Avery Rubenstein: Yeah. 13?

Randi Rubenstein: But

Avery Rubenstein: It’s a whole child.

Randi Rubenstein: you tell me that like, porn in Texas, there’s something around like, you have to be 18 or something.

Avery Rubenstein: You have to be 18. [00:52:00] They’ve done it well. The only issue with that is that it was legalized for so long that now it’s kind of like abortion where it’s never gonna stop. It’s just gonna be more dangerous. But basically for porn in Texas, and I’m sure some other red states, um, you have to verify your age, but like, I think with like a government ID, and no one wants record of that, and so no one’s verifying their age unless you’re like, you know, really into porn.

Randi Rubenstein: But we didn’t even, we didn’t even talk about video games. Let, like it’s all the social media stuff is, is, this is really more of a girl issue, but the, I think we did touch upon, you know, messing up your dopamine and the addictive nature. Um, and it’s interesting, the whole thing with dopamine. The way the algorithm works is like, you’re not gonna see amazing video after amazing video after amazing video.

They do it in a way where it, you know, the [00:53:00] dopamine is connected to that anticipatory desire to get to the next amazing video or the next hit on the violent video game or whatever. So, there’s something about the dopamine build that happens during that, you know those in between moments.

Avery Rubenstein: And he talks about your risk factor being in disalignment from video games where like when you’re a kid, you’re supposed to, the risk you’re taking is, you know, going to a party you’re not supposed to go to and climbing a tree you’re not supposed to, not jumping out of an airplane and shooting 10 guys in the head.

Randi Rubenstein: Mm-hmm.

Avery Rubenstein: You know, like how could that not mess you up in some fundamental way?

Randi Rubenstein: I think the bottom line is, is that, you can sum it up too, but I would say it’s like prolong screen use as long as possible. And when you do need that digital babysitter, when your kids are little, [00:54:00] um, like let ’em watch good old fashioned TV together. Let ’em have to compromise on a show. Let ’em watch a movie, you know, together, at least it’s a shared experience versus everybody on their own devices. 

Avery Rubenstein: Or even let them go to the movie theater.

Randi Rubenstein: Yes. Let him go to the movie theater. Exactly.

Avery Rubenstein: Mm-hmm. Yeah, it’s, it’s interesting how, I mean, there’s gonna have to be systemic change of, or systematic change of like, because he talks a lot about like a kid alone at the park and the mom calls

Randi Rubenstein: Mm-hmm.

Avery Rubenstein: or another mom calls CPS because it’s illegal now

Randi Rubenstein: Mm-hmm.

Avery Rubenstein: to let your kid go be a kid.

Randi Rubenstein: Mm-hmm.

Avery Rubenstein: But yeah, let your kids go do stuff by themselves. It’s fine.

Randi Rubenstein: Well, it’s also like do in, in Japan, it’s part of the culture that three-year-olds go and run an errand like for the family by themselves. Mm-hmm.

Avery Rubenstein: Yeah. Mm-hmm. Yeah. It’s, it gives them a [00:55:00] sense of pride and purpose. It’s a good thing.

Randi Rubenstein: Mm-hmm. I know it seems so, when I’ve watched footage of those three-year-olds, like in Tokyo,

Avery Rubenstein: So anxiety inducing.

Randi Rubenstein: So in anxiety inducing. Like,

Avery Rubenstein: They’re like waiting for the cars to stop whizzing

Randi Rubenstein: Yes. And it’s like a 3-year-old. It’s like a baby.

Avery Rubenstein: Literally, it’s like a, a tiny human, and they’re just waiting for the light to turn green,

Randi Rubenstein: I mean,

Avery Rubenstein: Like, oh my god.

Randi Rubenstein: Yeah, I know, I know. So all these things sound great in theory, but would I be letting my 3-year-old go and play Frogger?

Avery Rubenstein: He, he said, remember he was talking about his own experience with his kid, and he was like, it took us a really long time to even just stop, like tracking him. Like, we eventually let him walk to school. And that was really hard. And eventually we stopped following that little red dot, but like, how can you stop when it’s there, when you have it available to you?

And he said his big breakthrough was the kid wanted to go watch a night tennis match by himself, and [00:56:00] he, they let him go. And the kid was coming home at like 11:00 PM and he was like 12.

I keep hearing the,

Randi Rubenstein: You heard Hazel? That’s Hazel snoring. 

Avery Rubenstein: Um, and it was like 11:00 PM the kid needed to go home. He had taken the subway before, so he was gonna take the subway home, which to me, I’m like a 12-year-old on the subway, like, but plenty of kids have done it for many years. And the kids train that he needed wasn’t running. And he used his critical thinking skills and he hailed a taxi, which he had never done before, but the dad had taught him how to do.

And they were like, and after that we gave him so much more responsibility because he’s proven if he’s in a bind, he can figure it out. And I’m like, and that kid probably felt so proud of himself.

Randi Rubenstein: Well, I think he said in the book that he like that really was the demarcation of his kid, like growing into a very confident person because he was like, I handled that. You know? [00:57:00] And even though it was scary, and even though I’m sure he was, there were moments that he was probably freaking out out there, like he handled it and he got, he, he experienced that sense of accomplishment afterwards.

Avery Rubenstein: Right. And, and they were asleep. Like he couldn’t call them for help. I’m sure they were secretly awake, but they made it clear like, you can do it.

Randi Rubenstein: Mm-hmm.

Avery Rubenstein: And he did it.

Randi Rubenstein: Mm-hmm. That’s a big shift to go from micromanaging and helicoptering and thinking that that is what defines being a good parent. We, you know, our job is to keep our kids safe. But really, they have to go through risky things and things that don’t feel completely safe to develop into, you know, adults one day who know how to keep themselves safe.

Avery Rubenstein: Right. Yeah. Last story. I admit that story made me think of Baxter. He’s been my example for this entire book [00:58:00] because I think his parents did it right. And he, I said, when did you learn how to drive stick shift? ‘Cause his car is stick the hardest stick shift you’ve ever driven. It’s impossible. But he said, when I was 16, my mom, we went to go pick up her, she had a stick shift buggy or something from the car shop. And she dropped me off and she said, figure out how to get it home.

And he had like, they’d kind of taught him. In theory. But he said I was driving up and you’ve like his, the road’s over there, they’re windy. It’s a mountain. When you drive a stick on a mountain, you roll backwards. It’s scary because you take your foot off the gas. And he said he was stalling in the middle of intersections. It was horrible. And now he’s a really good driver.

Randi Rubenstein: I mean, Molly, she’s kind of a badass.

Avery Rubenstein: She’s a tough lady.

Randi Rubenstein: I mean.

Avery Rubenstein: Yeah. She’s a tough lady.

Randi Rubenstein: Tell everyone, tell everyone what, what my nickname is for [00:59:00] them.

Avery Rubenstein: Better us?

Randi Rubenstein: Uhhuh. They’re just better us. I mean,

Avery Rubenstein: They are better us.

Randi Rubenstein: We, we, we went on some air quotes, adventurous trips. I mean, we’re not like just chilling on a beach or going on a cruise, but it’s ridiculous, like,

Avery Rubenstein: I just heard him creep up to the door. I think he’s listening.

Randi Rubenstein: Little eavesdropper.

Better us. Yeah. Our adventurous trips are like, to them, it, they would be like going on a cruise.

Avery Rubenstein: Snooze fest. Yeah. They’re like, you wanna come backpacking through the Alps? I’m like, I, I don’t know if I can like, yeah.

Randi Rubenstein: Sleeping outside. 

Avery Rubenstein: No, it’s hut. It’s hut to hut. So we’re staying in huts, but it’s not gonna be easy. And you know, they’re all like trail runners. They like run up mountains every morning. I’m like, oh God.

Randi Rubenstein: I would consider that camping.

Avery Rubenstein: it’s not, the huts are like, nice. Mm-hmm.

Randi Rubenstein: Okay. Closing thoughts about the anxious [01:00:00] generation? I, uh, just people before technology. That’s the bottom line. That’s the mantra I’m gonna go to every single time, if y’all remember that. Like we have to model it if we want our kids to grow up and develop and and, put people before technology.

Because when they don’t put people before technology and when we allow the screens, um, and the, all the evil algorithms to manipulate our brains, our kids’ brains. That’s why we have a loneliness epidemic. That’s why we have mental illness has never been higher than it is now. You know, that’s why all the rates of anxiety and depression, not just with our kids, but with adults too. And kids learn by what we model. So we can’t have all these rules around screens and people and try to teach them people before technology, unless we put some of these things into practice for ourselves too.

Avery Rubenstein: Mm-hmm. [01:01:00] Yeah. And protect your kids from the right things. You know, stop protecting them from the things that they need. Protect them from what they easily have access to.

Randi Rubenstein: Yeah, protect them on, be overprotective online all day long.

Avery Rubenstein: Mm-hmm.

Randi Rubenstein: You, that’s, that’s where you can be a helicopter parent. Knock yourself out. deny access as long as possible and let ’em go outside and play in the street.

Avery Rubenstein: Right. And deal with your kid being angry about it.

Randi Rubenstein: Yeah. Uh oh. He’s busting in.

Avery Rubenstein: Bye. 

Baxter: Love you. Have a fun weekend. 

Avery Rubenstein: Thank you.

Randi Rubenstein: Um, okay everyone, say bye to Baxter.

Um, all right. All right, everyone, go read the book or read air quotes, listen to the book like we did, and, um, hope this episode was helpful in some way. Have a great weekend. Bye.

Avery Rubenstein: Bye. 

Randi Rubenstein: Thanks for listening today, guys. I hope you picked up some tips, [01:02:00] tools, maybe some baby steps for creating more balance and boundaries in your life. And I just wanted to let you know, if you want to continue moving the needle forward in creating this for yourself, having a happier household, I want you to go to my website and check out mastermindparenting.com. We have three beginning programs, and if you need some accountability and more support then please look for the one that would be a good fit for you.

And, as always, we’re on all the social channels under Mastermind Parenting, on Instagram it’s mastermind_parenting. And, you know, periodically I do pop up on different Instagram lives, Facebook lives where I give you teaching and coaching and I love engaging with you live to help you help your strong-willed kids so that they can feel better, because when they feel better they do better, [01:03:00] and I love, love, love getting to know you guys. 

So thanks for listening. If you like this podcast, please don’t forget to subscribe, rate and review. Super, super appreciative.