328: Do Your Kids Feel Safe Enough to Build Secure Attachments? (with Kirby Fling)

Randi Rubenstein: [00:00:00] My name is Randi Rubenstein, and welcome to the Mastermind Parenting Podcast. At Mastermind Parenting, we’re on a mission to support strong-willed kids and the families that love them. 

Hi everyone. Welcome to this week’s episode. On the podcast, I have my favorite attachment, attachment professional, A attachment. I don’t wanna say guru, ’cause that, that word to me is culty. Um, my attachment teacher, uh, here, his name is Kirby. This is our second. conversation. Kirby’s the Madonna, or the Cher or the Beyonce of attachment.

Kirby Fling: Oh my God, right? That’s so bizarre. Yeah. Well, uh, thank you. Thank you. Happy to be here.

Randi Rubenstein: I am so glad. I’m so glad you’re here. And I wanna dig in and talk about this topic that is, we were just [00:01:00] talking before we started recording. is not talked about enough. I don’t think it’s understood enough. I don’t think enough therapists are bringing attachment. And not even necessarily attachment styles. It’s, it’s people who do not have secure attachment, which I think is many many many of us, um, many of us come into adulthood with insecure attachment and it’s not being discussed. 

And yet I feel like it’s like all roads lead back to insecure attachment. And I think it’s just really important to break this down and to help people understand what the hell this even is. Um, and in a way that, is, you know, just digestible. Um, and why it’s important, especially for my audience, audience, uh, an audience full of people who are here because most likely [00:02:00] they have something in them where they want to break the cycle, they want to do things differently. Um. Maybe, yes, they have a air quote, strong-willed child, but my, theory is that strong-willed children are usually a sign. I think all roads lead back to insecure attachment. And I think it it, these strong-willed kids are like the canaries in the coal mine. 

And they’re like, yeah, we got mom I’m gonna need you to learn something different because whatever you’re pulling out right now, when you’re frustrated with me, which is most likely what was done for and to you when you were growing up I’m kicking and screaming, it’s not gonna work. So I feel like, um, this, this attachment topic is super, super relevant to any parent that [00:03:00] has a desire to be what I call cycle breaker, um, and to really start a new family legacy. Um, so yeah, what are your thoughts on that? 

Kirby Fling: Mm-hmm. Well, I’m gonna, first thing I wanna say is that all roads lead back to the, fin, the conclusion of that statement is not attachment. The, the way that I see it is all roads lead back to safety

Randi Rubenstein: Mm-hmm. 

Kirby Fling: And, and it’s like felt safety, not known safety. There’s a difference. So all roads lead back to safety, an attachment system, and the, the formation of the attachment system, and the way I see it, is about creating an environment that cultivates the growth of a nervous system that feels safe in a wide range of situations, including stress.

And so the strong-willed child, as you call it. Is like everything that’s happening [00:04:00] is happening because of safety or, or some, something to do with safety. And so the behaviors that are coming outta that person, child, adult, baby, whatever, the, at least the way I, the lens that I look at this through, and if someone’s got evidence to say that I’m wrong, I’m, I’m open for correction.

But the way that I see it is that everything leads back to safety. The nervous system or the subconscious or the inner child, depending upon how we, you know, I use all those words kind of interchangeably, is that it’s really only doing one thing at all times. And that it’s pursuing safety and survival of this organism.

How can I survive until tomorrow? And if that means I act out and I throw a chair through a window, then that’s, then that’s the conclusion of that nervous system. That nervous system is concluded that throwing a chair through the window is somehow going to help me survive. Now it’s the tricky work is deducing.

How can we get from this incredibly antisocial, dysfunctional behavior? How can we deduce from that what the [00:05:00] actual safety concern of that nervous system actually is? And that’s where the work is, and that’s where the expertise and the growth and 50 years of research and blah, blah, blah, blah. Um, but to me, the people that start getting good at that skill, deducing, how does this behavior connect to the safety of that nervous system?

People that get good at that become superheroes. They’re just like, they, they’re, they’re like, almost every relationship issue changes, like adult, romantic, parent, child, child, child, whatever, whichever dynamic you wanna slice it up in. You can sit here and be like, well, that didn’t feel good, whatever it is that they did.

But you’re just like, but in some way, their nervous system has concluded that that’s the best option that they got. And, um, and when we can do that, it allows us to step into compassion and curiosity and all these other kinds of things. And that, of course, just everything gets better from there. But of course, if my system [00:06:00] is feeling chronically unsafe, like across the board, then I’m gonna have all these protective mechanisms to try to ensure safety for me, which oftentimes means isolation, black and white thinking, um, rigidity control.

Because certainty and predictability have high associations with safety. So a lot of times we will reach for rigidity, control, predictability, and try to control our environment. And now this person across from me, parent, child, whatever, is acting in a way that is not predictable. And now that is in, now my nervous system interprets their actions as a threat, and now we’ve got a conflict.

We’re gonna have this power struggle back and forth. ’cause you’ve got two people that are both trying to figure out, trying to get themselves to a point of safety. Especially when we have chronic unsafety in our lives. We try to control our environment. And so what happens is [00:07:00] I’m trying to control you and I’m trying to, and so what have I learned in my life?

Like, oh, I’ve learned that if I, well, I’m just gonna drop the big bomb. Like in my life. What I’ve learned from watching movies, reading books, and watch the people around me is that if I lob a big shame bomb at you and try to shame your behavior, there’s a high likelihood that I can, I can manipulate you, I can pressure you into submission, and then you will stop behaving the way that you are and you’ll start behaving the way that I want you to.

And this is the way we kind of like. It’s like, how toxic is that? I mean, I’m, I’m guilty of it, right? All of us are guilty of it. So, and even that, right? So people can listen to my work and they say, oh yeah, that’s totally me. And then they have this whole growth of shame that blow blows up inside them. I’m like, don’t, don’t allow that shame to get the better of you.

It’s just like we all do it. It’s just understand the mechanism and then [00:08:00] we all boats rise or whatever that saying is, you know, we’re, we will, we will all improve when we can understand that what’s at stake here is safety and attachment. The whole kind of, at least the way I see attachment theory now is how do we, how do we take the knowledge that we have and the data that we have over the past 50 years, and how can we create an environment that’s more likely to encourage, to foster felt safety inside your nervous system, which might be partner, it might be child, might be coworker, might be friend, and it might be self. Right? So, ’cause we have this whole relationship with self too, so,

Randi Rubenstein: And when you when you repeat the shame stories to yourself, it’s gonna cause you to, to, to go within, because shame feels terrible. And really, I like to call that it’s [00:09:00] faulty conditioning. Somebody else. encoded That faulty conditioning. in you. And now when when you’re repeating it, You’re just taking the baton and continuing to do that that faulty work, you know? And so, um, and so I think the cycle breaking starts first and foremost with ourselves. And, and that’s, I think, you know, I think as parents, parents are you know, parents who listen to this podcast most, I think it’s easy to kind of deflect from doing your own work. 

Kirby Fling: Mm-hmm. 

Randi Rubenstein: You’re an adult, and you’ve figured out ways to to behave out in the world that maybe on social media that is socially acceptable, right? You have learned how to hide all the feelings that [00:10:00] you were probably shamed out of, you know, you, you were, you were shamed and, and taught to squash down when you were a kid, and so now you may think I’m fine. It’s my kid that’s acting like a lunatic. 

Um, but I guess I just want, I want anyone who like, can you name some of the things that show. some of the things that are an indicator that you may have insecure attachment on the scene and there’s work to do in terms of calming down your own nervous system. Um, can you talk about like some of the symptoms of insecure attachment? 

Kirby Fling: Sure. Um,

Randi Rubenstein: like anxiety, I would imagine, and 

Kirby Fling: Mm. I’m not, okay. Anxiety’s just a fancy name for fear. Um, and, and it’s like, and fear is where it’s all about because my system unsafety, right. [00:11:00] Safety, I’m calm, I’m secure, I am, you know, I have options. I don’t need to worry. Right? That’s secure safety, right? Unsafety is, there’s some threat in my environment or coming and that threat is uh, you know, poses some kind of threat to me, you know, threat to my wellbeing, threat to my physical safety, threat to my social status. That’s a huge one. Like huge, huge, huge.

You know, some evidence suggests that we have dedicated cortical structures, meaning places of the brain that specifically monitor our social status because we’re social primates. And if we get, if our social status drops too far down, we’ll be, you know, excommunicated from the tribe and then we’ll then we’re alone on the planes of the Serengeti, you know, 600 million years ago and we could be eaten by a leopard, right? So we have this like built in psychological model from the ground up that says I need to monitor my social status. 

And so signs have insecure attachment. [00:12:00] This was kind of a big one for me, is that it’s like your physiology actually tells you, and this is one of the exercises I give my clients and people in my live classes all the time. It’s that sit down and make an itemized list of your, what I call physiological threat responses. And a physiological threat response will look like shaking hands. Rapidly dilating eyes, um, you know, pupils in your eyes. Um, you know, a heat in the back of the neck, a sinking stomach or sinking sensation in your shoulder plexus, that’s a big one for me.

Um, jittery feeling, brain fog. Brain fog’s a big one where you’re like, you’re having a conversation and suddenly your brain gets really confused. It’s hard to track, um, information. Um, you’re trying to have this conversation with someone and you can’t find the words. Suddenly your memory’s gone. Um, because trauma is a memory issue.

And so it’s like that’s a sign that a, your, your physiology, you’re below the conscious mind is detecting a monumental [00:13:00] threat. And this, you know, people talk about insecure attachment. This is kind of how we got talking on this. And they think of insecure attachment as like, oh, I’ve got a mother wound, or I’ve got an abandonment wound, or whatever.

And it’s like, that’s not the way to look at this. Then you’re looking at this idea almost like a piece of a puzzle, and you’re just like, oh, if I could just fix the abandonment wound, then I’m gonna be better. It’s like, no. The way to look at this is it’s not the, it’s not that you have abandonment wound, it’s that you have a lack of felt safety.

And because you don’t feel safe across a broad range of experiences, you are your, your, the fundamental nervous system physiology of your body is in a defensive state a majority of the time, and one of the ways that you gain safety or that you’ve taught to believe that safety comes to you is when there’s a person close by who’s choosing you, who’s selecting you.

I’m want chosen and prioritized. If a person is here wanting me, choosing me, and prioritizing [00:14:00] me, that means I have high social status. That means I will not be alone. That means I have value. Right? And so we derive this sense of safety from people around us choosing us. And, and so what happens is the way, you know, look at the stressors.

You know, imagine just, this is an exercise to do with people all the time. Just imagine your primary romantic partner walking out the door and saying, I never wanna see you again. Watch what happens with your body. Do you freak out? Do you feel stress that stress is a amplifi, like massive amplification of like a release?

It’s a massive release of cortisol, norepinephrine, and the other stress hormones. Why does it do that? It does that because your nervous system says if that person leaves, I will be under massive threat. I will be alone, I’ll be unwanted, I’ll be unselected, I’ll be un unvaluable, I’ll be undesirable. I’ll never be loved again.

I’ll never have sex [00:15:00] again. Like la la, la, la, la, right? There’s this whole like list of things. So insecure attachment, you know, we’ve got all these. Classifications, you know, anxious and avoidant and disorganized and, but really those are kind of immaterial. They’re just, they’re labels that you put on a rough grouping of behavioral strategies because underneath all of them, all of them is just, I am terrified of, fill in the blank.

I’m terrified of being alone. I’m terrified of being too close. I’m terrified of caring about someone that is, uh, inconsistent, right? Whereas the secure attachment means I’m not terrified of that. That it’s like, I feel it and, and it’s uncomfortable and it’s, and it’s, you know, difficult and I might have to grieve for a little [00:16:00] while, but I have this deep down fundamental confidence that I’m gonna be okay.

Life is gonna work out that there will be other options, other doors will open. And this is one of the things that kind of like some of the organized spirituality does well is that it’s basically trying to create this idea that like, you know, there’s some higher power or whatever out there, you know, universe, source, whatever you people wanna call it, and it’s gonna be okay.

And when people sink into that, what they’re actually doing from an attachment point of view is they’re shifting their primary attachment figure from a person to a concept. And when you shift your primary attachment figure to this like kind of spiritual concept, you begin to feel that it’s this like, oh, I don’t need a person wanting, choosing and prioritizing me because I have a God or source or whatever that’s wanting, choosing, prioritizing me.

And now, now I have, I can derive safety from that and now I can walk through the world with security, right? [00:17:00] And, and so all roads again lead back to. Safety and it’s like, will I feel safe in this situation? And so a, for a person to kind of deduce, do you have insecure attachment? Sure, you can go take an online test.

Unfortunately, their accuracy is very questionable. You can go get an assessment with an actual specialist, which is costly and time consuming and everything else. And really all it does is give you a list of, you know, labels. But you can, it’s pretty easy. You can just be like, when was the last time you got super dysregulated?

When you know, think about do an inventory, like for people that really wanna do the work, it’s just like do an inventory thing. About the last three months of your life, when was the last time you got really scared, really angry, really brain foggy, like confused or hazy, or the fourth one is euphoric, [00:18:00] which is like happiness.

That go so high that you basically just regulate, like, you know, it’s the, it’s like when the person walks through the door and you’re just like, you know, you’re jittering with excitement at, at the, at that they’re present here. This is, you know, people call it new relationship energy or whatever, and it’s like that, that’s driven by fear.

Like the, the in the intensity of the euphoric high is driven by the fear of it not being there. So it, it really is kind of a fear response. It’s pleasant and it feels good, but it’s still a dysregulated nervous system. Right.

Randi Rubenstein: And when There’s a parent that I like to say, it’s like so, you know, so many roads lead to aggression. So some people start off aggressive. What I find with women [00:19:00] it, especially with all the gentle parenting that has been all over the place for the last, I don’t even know, it seems like. It’s really taken off in the last five years. Which I believe that, this is a movement that has, that is really just, um, it’s like dressed up, permissive parenting. And so, um, and so I think a lot of moms who tend to fall into that fond response, the people pleaser, um, you know, the ones who, people who really have a hard time with boundaries, it just kills them to upset or disappoint anyone, or god forbid, hurt anyone else’s feelings. 

And so. So this is a person who I like to call starts off as camp counselor mommy, and they’re always begging people like me for Just the right script. What what, what [00:20:00] exactly should I say? How do I get them to do yada, yada, yada, which I always know is a sign of somebody where controls on the scene and they’re really wanting their kids just to be obedient. 

And I like to say obedience is for dogs, um, not for Human beings. And so how do I get them? How do I get them? And So she starts off as camp counselor, mommy. Hey bud, it’s time to get, have a bath. All right? And the little child who’s very literal, and it sounds Like it’s, just a request, it’s a suggestion. And so that kid is in the present. moment and they’re playing and they tune her out because they’ve also learned that they don’t really have to listen until she starts screaming. 

And so the child seems like, God, I have to say things 10 times and I finally have to yell at them before they’ll freaking listen. So then she, she goes from camp [00:21:00] counselor, mommy to a little bit sterner. And before you know it, she just goes ape shit and screams her head off. Um, what Is wrong with you why can’t. you know the shame bomb star? Why can’t you ever just listen the first time? And she maybe grabs an arm, yanks them, takes them where they want. 

So, I think this is, I mean, no one’s posting stories of this on social media, and I would assert that this is happening behind many, many curtains, uh, of families and, you know, secretly. And so if somebody’s listening and they can relate to that behavior, what would you say about what’s going on with their nervous system and what you would actually recommend for them to, to be able to handle this in [00:22:00] a way where they stay in their bodies and they’re able to be calm no matter what. 

Or at least for, you know, calm to me doesn’t mean ooey, gooey, soft and gentle to me. Calm when you have a kid that. Needs direction. And they’re happy in this moment. It involves being firm, right? Like stop gooping around bath time you going or am I taking you bath time needs to happen. Like sometimes we gotta get firm and because, because your kid doesn’t want to go get in the bath, They don’t wanna stop playing and they don’t wanna go to bed. And so sometimes we do have to be firm. But the mom who really has a hard time between camp counselor mommy, and then, you know, becoming Crazy mom. Um, not really crazy, regular human with 

Kirby Fling: Dis

Randi Rubenstein: system that feels unsafe. [00:23:00] Yes. Dysregulated,

Kirby Fling: Dysregulated, mom. Yeah. 

Randi Rubenstein: Dysregulated mom. Yeah. What would you, What would you say, to, what would you say to her about what’s going on in her body? and Yeah, like, I would love to, to know 

Kirby Fling: okay. 

Randi Rubenstein: thoughts.

Kirby Fling: Well, these are my thoughts on that. Are that, is that at the point that a person reaches dysregulation, they’ve already crossed many lines in inside themselves, like kind of, kind of from a physiological point of view. And it’s just like at the point that your nervous system is so activated that, um, you know, so slow it down. What’s going on? It’s like, I want inside my mind, I want a different reality. I want, I want a child that goes to their bath when I tell them to, right now I’m in this reality. That’s not the reality that I want.

And so it’s just like, oh, you know, what does that mean? Now I’ve got this uncertainty happening and uncertainty is scary, and it’s just like, and I’m stressed and [00:24:00] I’ve got other things I need to do with, and so now my stress is already climbing and I’m trying to ex take my opinion or, or desire for change or whatever and push it out into the reality around me, including this child and say, I want this reality to go do this other thing so that I have less stress inside my system.

Now my stress keeps going, going, going, going, well, now the child does not behave or, you know, follow. They do not go in the direction that I want. So now I’ve got more stress in my system. So I’ve got more adrenaline and cortisol that’s climbing, climbing, climbing. And now it gets to the point where. The prefrontal cortex begins to shut down because that’s the what happens when your stress hormones get high enough.

This is the brain fog I start talking about, and your system begins to kind of re regress backwards and backwards to lean on older and older strategies to achieve the goal. And what happens is, at [00:25:00] some point in time in my past, I learn my nervous system, subconscious, whatever has learned the strategy, that if I raise my voice and I get aggressive and I start moving things around, you know, using my fingers and muscles, the mobility of my body to impact the environment around me, and I can push things and pull things and grab things and shake things, especially if I’m bigger and stronger, then I can, I can exert my will on the environment around me to make it be what I want it to be.

And now I, I, and I can be successful in that venture and I can get the, the thing that I want. Well, at that point that that happens, my stress hormones are already so high that the parts of my brain that I need to be regulated and calm and intentional about things, those are ticking, those are being shut off, like light switches just tick, tick, tick, tick, tick, tick.

And so I call it, sometimes I call this like the tidal wave moment, that like [00:26:00] you’re sitting on the beach enjoying your margarita and then you know there’s a tidal wave coming, a tsunami we call ’em. And at the point that the tsunami hits the beach, it’s too late. Like you’re in crisis mode. Your only thing you can do is try to make sure that no further damage is caused.

But if you go out there in the ocean, 60 miles out and you calm the tsunami before it even reaches the shore, you can change the future. You can change your entire reality. And so this is a big part of like nervous system regulation, is understanding my own self deeply. So that I understand that my stress response is beginning to arise quickly and be like, wow, I’ve got about, I got about 15 seconds before I lose my shit.

And this is a superpower I mentioned earlier, like super heroes have superpowers. This is one of the superpowers in human relating is a [00:27:00] deep sense of personal awareness or internal self-awareness to say that like I’m, it’s, my stress is going up and it’s going quickly, and I know the way that I behave when it, when it gets high.

And so I have about 10 seconds before I begin to behave in ways that I, that don’t align with my values. And then if a person that can say that to the romantic partner in the middle of a fight is winning. Epically, right? And if you have two people in relationship that have that ability, you can, you can create any future you want really, because all conflict, the nature of conflict changes.

So in this particular situation, you’ve got a parent dealing with a child, and it’s just like, if you get to the point where you’re that activated that you’re screaming and yelling and asking 20 times or whatever, then you’re, the tidal wave has hit the shore and you’ve got limited options because your brain is compromised.

And, um, at least that’s the [00:28:00] way I see it. And so, okay, so what do we do in that, that situation? It’s like, well work, right? It’s like say, oh, I have times when I get really angry and I lash out, or I scream, or, you know, whatever. I, I act in ways that aren’t in align, that don’t align with the way that I wanna be, the person that I wanna be, the parent that I wanna be, and I need to go become more acutely attuned.

With, with that. Okay, so now what can we do? So let’s switch. We’ll move the pieces around a little bit and we’ll say, okay, the parent that is like, it’s bath time for this child and that child’s playing well, what other options do we have? It’s like the big option that a lot of people don’t wanna face is that it’s just like, this isn’t about my desires.

What is my desire? Here is my desire to, [00:29:00] what’s more important to me, the future attachment status of my child over the next 20 years of their life? Or emptying the dishwasher. Like what’s, what is your priority here? Because a priority, a choice is being made like a, a, a, we always have a value hierarchy.

What are you valuing in this moment? And it’s like, okay, it’s bath time. Why? Why is that important? If you can’t answer that question, if I can’t answer that question, then I, it’s like I got work to do. Why is bath time so important to me that it’s worth dysregulating my nervous system, that it’s worth intentionally causing disconnection with that child? Because is it Lori Gottlieb? I think she’s got this great, that it’s just like a child needs to know I matter and you’re here with me. 

Randi Rubenstein: Every family’s different. I mean, I’ve had families where, you know, they, they are in [00:30:00] colder climates and they don’t, you know, they don’t really, in the winter months, they don’t bathe every single day. And, um, and, and people have different values about that. So I think every family’s different, but I do think that kids having a, routine that creates some certainty. Like every night we wind down like this. um, it, it just, it brings a sense of safety to their nervous system to know, I wanna play, like I’m at a rave and I’ve popped Molly and I’m gonna dance all night. You know, like, um, or ecstasy, whatever generation you’re in. And so kids, they don’t want the day to end. They don’t, you know, I mean, I’ve, it’s, the rare kid that I’ve met that’s like. I’m just so tired. They, you know, most kids that I’ve been around, they just wanna party.

And so bringing that certainty [00:31:00] to, but they, kids need so much freaking sleep. And I mean, just a ton because they’re just, they’re learning how to be alive. There’s so much going on all day long that they need that time to really rest and recover and be ready for the next day. So to have that routine at night, whatever your routine is, maybe it’s, you know, brush teeth, wash hands, rinse face, maybe it’s actually getting to the bathtub, which is the routine that I like because I feel like it’s a chance to really start to bring it down, settle the nervous system.

They’re in a womb like environment. I think it just, especially for my population of people that I work with, where we have. People that, especially the little people, they’re dysregulated a lot of the time. So to wind down in this way, and this is what they can count on after dinner, we go upstairs or whatever, we go, we get in the bathtub, we have [00:32:00] some toys in the bathtub. It’s a lovely little time. Maybe if you have the kind of family where people bathe together, where you, I mean, I used to get in with my kids a lot. Um, my husband took showers with them. They played with shaving cream. It was just like this, it was a bonding, it was a bonding way to rinse off the day. And they could count on that routine.

And then we go and we know, we go into PJ’s, we brush teeth, we read books, and it slides out at this time. And they could count on that sense of certainty every single day. And. I found that it helped everyone to feel more regulated and be ready to be more regulated for the next day. So like the why behind the bath was really important to me because I felt like it was a good reset and a good way to rinse off the day and to provide that kind of routine to, to let the kids have that sense of certainty.

Kirby Fling: But what you’re talking about is [00:33:00] that it’s just like, okay, you’re trying to build this routine and you are in this bonding process through the entire time, which I totally agree with is that you’re, it’s like I am here with you. You are the most important thing to me. And they say, well, I wanna keep playing. It’s like, okay, I’m gonna sit down. I’m gonna be with you. I’m gonna be a safe entity in your space for let’s say five minutes. And we play five more minutes. And I’m gonna tell you that which is communicating a boundary and limits and that, you know, when mom makes a boundary and says it’s five minutes, she means it every single time, right? And, um, you know, certain that creates the certainty, predictability, all, all those kinds of things. And then that creates the framework. 

And then you say, okay, I’m gonna sit here. We’re gonna go for five minutes. Hey, we set us five minutes. That’s a hard rule. And then we go, and let’s say you’re carrying them upstairs to the bathroom and they’re like, ah, you know, they’re crying or whatever. And that’s the moment where you just say, those are the moments that so many people want to [00:34:00] avoid. And this applies to adult romantic relationships too, which is kind of where I focus more, but. Th so many people want to avoid these situations where this person they care about is dysregulated and going through a painful emotional experience.

And it’s just like, if, if I do everything possible to avoid your emotional discomfort, the message that I’m communicating to you is your difficult emotions are not welcome here. And, and they should be avoided. Whereas, so if, if I go through this moment where I’m gonna play with you for five minutes and then we’re gonna go upstairs and now I’m carrying the child upstairs and she’s like, no, I wanna keep playing, blah, blah, blah.

Here’s this moment to connect with them and say, I’m here with you and this matters. And sometimes we have difficult emotions and this is one of those times and I spend a little time with them and we go through the whole kind of like emotional wave of peak and valley and back to regulation. And it’s just like that child just [00:35:00] learned amazing lessons that it’s just like sometimes we are disappointed and it’s still. But mommy’s still here with me.

sometimes. Sometimes mommy draws a line that it will not be crossed, and it doesn’t feel good in the moment, but like, I’m still safe, I’m still safe, I’m still safe. I’m still safe. What we don’t want is we don’t want the situation where the attachment figures are basically like, I’m on the outside and I’ve got all the laws of the universe, and I’m imposing them on you, and you just deal with it. That that’s the situation that will create sorts of attachment wounds, 

Randi Rubenstein: To me, if you are attuned and you’ve done, and you have consistently been the person who, let’s just say, I mean, I really wanted to give that example of what happens, I think in a lot of homes where they go from camp [00:36:00] counselor, mom to, you know, losing my mind, um, because. I feel like that’s an, it’s like, why do I need to know anything about attachment? Why would I need to do this work? That is a sign that your little nervous system is not feeling safe probably a lot of the time. Right.

And so I really wanted to point that out because I think a bunch of people can identify with it. And it is just an indicator that if we truly want to break cycles, you know, we, if we wanna be the safe container for them and we wanna model that, then we have to do that. We have to do this work for ourselves. So if we went back to that mom who, you know, is like, oh, that’s me. And so she’s, she, she hasn’t necessarily, you know, maybe the child doesn’t feel [00:37:00] attuned to her in the way that. They’re gonna be cooperative and it’s not gonna turn into a whole meltdown and power struggle, like what I modeled, which was enough, like enough goofing around It’s bath time. are you gonna go or do I need to take you? 

That’s a relationship that is safe attuned. I’ve kind of earned the right to be able to show up and let ’em know, no monkey business enough already. Right. And that child knows, okay, fine. You know That child isn’t gonna have, some deep, huge wound because mom laid down the law and she didn’t sit down and play with me for five minutes and do the whole tuning because you’ve been attuning

Kirby Fling: Right. Good point. 

Randi Rubenstein: All the other times. right. So now you kind of can be like, listen, enough.

Kirby Fling: Right. 

Randi Rubenstein: But the the mom who does go to that other scenario, you know, I would say [00:38:00] while you’re, while you’re starting to look at the sense of unsafety that you felt and continue to feel during these moments with your kids, you know, a baby step to start might be exactly what you said about, about unloading the dishwasher, is just noticing those signs in your body.

You know, I remember it used to be like I would get a little bit tired behind my eyes, a little sweaty in my pits, and you know, if you can notice those signs in your body before you go to that, you know, tsunami and even say. Like people are scared to tell their kids, I’m feeling really frustrated, or I’m feeling really annoyed right now. I’m gonna go unload the dishwasher. I’ll be back in a few when I’ve calmed down.

And I don’t, I would love to know what your thoughts are about that, because I feel like [00:39:00] that’s honest. That’s real. They know you’re annoyed. They know you’re frustrated. They, they, we, we all have each other’s numbers. So you’ve now just modeled I’m a human being who has a whole range of emotions, just like you’re a human being who has a whole 

Kirby Fling: Yes. Yes. Yes. 1000%. It’s like, I mean, children passively absorb what they’re around. And so if, if I am in a place where I’m terrified of having a negative emotional state, and I do everything possible, including numbing out or addictions or whatever else to avoid such n negative emotional states, guess what that child’s gonna do when they’re 18, 28, whatever.

Right? It’s like that’s, that is super reliable. Um, not a hundred percent, but just high, right? So, so one of the best things we can do is to model. A fearless, like a, like a fearless, stable processing of all possible [00:40:00] emotional states and to just be like, oh man, I am feeling some big negative emotions right now.

It’s something like anger, little bit sadness, and it’s just like now there are, there is developmental stages here, right? That’s especially before three, theory of mind hasn’t been built yet, and so that’s not, not really appropriate for the earlier stages. Um, because I mean, really at that point in time they’re, they’re flailing and trying to figure out what’s going on in the world, but like later on, which is the time when you’re gonna see this, you know, problematic label show up is like, you know, seven to 14 or something like that.

At that point in time, theory of mind is online and, and being able to model that is so powerful to say that it’s just like sadness is not something to be ignored or there’s no reason to be afraid of sadness. There’s no reason to be afraid of grief. There’s no reason to be afraid of anger, really. It’s just like, and [00:41:00] the, the parents, especially if it’s multiple data points, you know, multiple parents in their attachment constellation, um, that’s so powerful. ’cause what does that child learn? The child learns is just like, no emotion is scary. 

And it’s just like, and we’re all, and we’re all moving through this. And so when emotions aren’t scary, we actually process them faster. And so kind of like, uh, Sam Harris calls it the half-life of negative emotions. The, the, like, when we’re in a intense, negative emotional state, that’s when we’re dysregulated. That’s when we make rash action. That’s when we lash out. That’s when we do things that are destructive and toxic. 

But it’s like, if I can be, if I can flow through my emotional states with ease and grace, which is something that secure attachment does, um, or at least more so than the others. Is that like any child that learns that they now walk through life flowing through these different emotional stages so quickly they [00:42:00] don’t have these big negative consequences. Right. And

Randi Rubenstein: seen it, I’ve seen it with my own eyes. I, I, I tell a story. I don’t think I told it to you about my son when he was about 12 or 13, and I had to say no to something that he really wanted. And um, and he was really upset and he kind of panicked and he was like what do you mean mom? I’m gonna be the only kid I can’t. And he got really worked up. And I saw it. I saw it. And this was, this is not my strong-willed kid, this was my chillest kid. 

So it was kind of not that, not super common for him to like, you know, get worked up about things like that. And he got really upset. And typically if he, because he was my chillest kid, when he did get really upset or worked up about something like it was, he was [00:43:00] the opposite of the boy who cried wolf, I’d be like, whoa, this is something that’s really important to you. 

But this particular thing involved, like taking technology somewhere that it was, we were gonna be on a tech break and all the other kids were gonna have theirs. And so I was having to be like the mom who said no. And um, and there was no way I was gonna give on it. And he was gonna have to deal with that disappointment. So I was like, yeah, I, you, you know, I was thinking you should take, maybe take a book with you in your little backpack.

And he was like, mom, no. And I saw him get worked up and then I just, I didn’t say anything else, but what I did was I stayed in the room. And I started like busying myself, like around his little, you know, sink area, which I’m not a big cleaner. So he, it was like, I so I was just kind of acting like I was organizing things or whatever, and I saw it, I saw it take 90 [00:44:00] seconds. I saw him go over lay on his bed. I saw him look up at the ceiling. And now I’ve been doing with this therapist, I’ve been working with this brain mapping method where she’ll have you look up. And so I know there’s, you know, like, because she’ll, she’ll notice track where my eyes, I saw his eyes Look, up to the corner of the room, I saw his chest heave up and down like he was taking some really intense breaths.

And I’m telling you at the most, it was two minutes. And then I went and I sat down on his bed and I said, do you wanna talk about it? You know, or you tell me, you know, you’re allowed to be angry at me. I get it. You wanna talk about it? And he was like, no, it’s fine. And I said, is it really fine? Because it’s it’s understandable. Look, no one wants to be the only one without a [00:45:00] thing. And so if you’re upset with me about this, I get it. I’d probably be upset too. And he’s like, no, it’s fine. I’m just gonna, I, I will, I’ll, I’ll, I’ll, it’s fine, mom. It’s not, it’s really not that big of a deal. Like he had processed it.

Kirby Fling: Beautiful. 

Randi Rubenstein: it in real time and it was the craziest thing. ’cause I’d always heard if you stop, if you learn how to you, how to, you know, accept your emotions and, and stop fighting them, it actually takes 90 seconds. The neuroscientists say it takes 90 seconds for a emotion to move through you. And I was like, and I had repeated that, but I didn’t, you know, I didn’t know if it was actually true. I was just kind of trusting the neuroscientist. But I saw it in real time and, and I saw how he processed it and it was pretty amazing.

Kirby Fling: Yeah. Yeah. It’s a beautiful story. I, it just, and, and it’s like the, [00:46:00] that skill is so applicable across so many aspects of life. And I mean, it, it’s, you know, many people that I work with, of course, they’re adults and they’re going through romantic, uh, you know, partnerships. And of course they’re insecure and which means they’re choosing insecure people.

And so we’ve got all these insecure pairings. And one of the things I say all the time is that it’s like what that child needs. Now, this is the birth child that I brought in this world, or the inner child of my parent, or I mean inner child of my partner or the inner child of myself. What that child needs is to say, is to believe I’m here with you, and those big emotions are not gonna scare me away.

Randi Rubenstein: Mm-hmm. And I love that message, and I love the way, it’s just like, so here’s my partner getting all dysregulated, and I stay solid, grounded, almost like a lightning rod. And I say, I’m here with you, and there’s no way that all this dysregulated, whatever is gonna scare me away. Now, of [00:47:00] course, if that person begins to get violent or aggressive or hostile or whatever, then we need some boundaries around that.

Kirby Fling: But it’s very, it’s wild to be in a situation where you’re just like, I have so much felt safety inside myself that I can stand here in the face of this storm coming out of another person’s nervous system and to say, it’s okay, bring it. And, and then it, it flows past. And what happens is after the storm passes and that person kind of comes back to regulation or sobriety, then what happens is they say, you were with me that entire time. 

And safety, the concept of safety, reliability, predictability, whatever increases, like you begin to like that person, see their nervous system assesses you as a safer entity in their life.

Randi Rubenstein: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Dysregulate and their storm gets big, and then my storm gets big in reaction, [00:48:00] and then we have all this conflict and volatility flying between us, my safety goes down and then at, and eventually safety goes down far enough that that person says, they basically check out. They, they, they remove emotional connection from you. And, and in a lot of ways, I’m describing my own childhood. That was basically the path I, I took with my parents is that I to the point where I emotionally divorced myself from my parents, probably at 10, I don’t know, 10 de definitely by 13.

I did too. I think I did it maybe before 10. I, uh, same. Mm-hmm. And it’s just like, it just like this and like, I mean, I didn’t know I, I, you know, luckily kids now have the internet and stuff, but I mean, it’s like I didn’t know that that’s what was going on. But looking back on it now, I totally get it. It’s just like you are not like from a deep down, visceral level, my nervous system was saying, this u this family unit, you people, parents [00:49:00] are not safe. And so I am removing myself. 

Kirby Fling: And unfortunately, because we all have need for connection and attachment, what that, what that typically does is it shifts your, your attachment system begins grasping for anything that’s available. And so your priority shifts more and more towards romantic connection, romantic pairings. And that’s where you get these people that kind of end up with this like desperate craving, anxious hunger for partnership, partnership, partnership is because they don’t have a wider network of safety around them. 

Randi Rubenstein: Yeah, mine was, mine was not that as much. Mine was, I mean, it was friends and it was friends. It was plans. It was like, I didn’t, my dad even said to me, not that long ago, I wanna say maybe two years ago. He was like, I don’t even feel like I really know you, [00:50:00] but who does know Randi? I’m like thinking, anyone who listens to my podcast regularly probably knows me pretty well.

Kirby Fling: Thanks for the viewership, dad. Yeah. Exactly, and, and I was thinking, and, and I did, I divorced myself. It didn’t feel safe, so they didn’t get to know anything. I mean, I drove myself to college and never went home for more than a week again. And I didn’t want them to know about, you know, ESP when I was, you know, in middle, in junior high and high school, if I had a crush on a boy or if I had a little re, like, I didn’t want them to know if I had friend drama, I didn’t want them to know anything. I didn’t. Right?

Randi Rubenstein: Mm-hmm. was same way, same way. It’s like you were cut off from me because like if I, if I take any of my emotional weakness or vulnerability and I bring it into this space, it’s just gonna amplify the unsafety that I [00:51:00] feel in this world. And so, so you turn into this like purely performative wor act, I don’t know, like your whole life around family becomes performative and it’s like there’s no connection, there’s no. 

Kirby Fling: And it’s like, this is what I want to help people understand, especially, you know, parents or wanting to be parents to understand that like these dynamics actually happen and, and understand how everybody plays a part in it. And so it, everything’s about safety and Yeah, Everything’s about about Safety, I love that. Mm-hmm. 

I don’t know the first day that I met a secure person, ’cause I didn’t, I probably wasn’t aware of at that time, but as I began to become aware of like a truly, deeply born, secure person, well, not born, but like, you know, someone escaped the three year time period with the secure attachment style. You meet them and you’re like, oh my God, their life is different.

Randi Rubenstein: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. 

Kirby Fling: Like, [00:52:00] it, it’s, it’s wild. It’s, I don’t know how to describe it, but I 

Randi Rubenstein: I can just, I can think about, I can think about there’s, there’s this, this guy I know who my husband has been friends with for years, and he was like 10 years younger than my husband. And they became friends. They were, you know, there’s like these books that are called Unlikely Friends, and it’s like a duck and a 

Kirby Fling: Oh yeah, 

Randi Rubenstein: a duck and a dog or something like that. And I used to think that him and this guy were unlikely friends. They looked very different. Like at the time, my husband was 10 years older, my husband was kind of this surfer dude, and this guy was kind of this nerdy, you know, like, just, anyway, they were, they just loved each other. And it was the sweetest friendship.

They worked together. And the guy was an intern at my husband’s first job. And so he’d come home from college and they just became these just adorable friends. And whenever I, and now you know, this is 30 years later, [00:53:00] you know, everybody’s a grownup, whatever, and. He has always been the kind of, since he, since I met him 30 years ago. And, and my husband Scott said this too. He’s the kind of guy that when he’s talking to you, it doesn’t matter who’s around. He is a hundred percent with you. 

Kirby Fling: Mm-hmm. 

Randi Rubenstein: You feel, you feel, his presence. And there was, even though he was just kind of this nerdy kid that, you know, didn’t look like he was gonna hang out, with Mr. Tuko for school, my husband’s gonna kill me for saying that about him. But at, he doesn’t now he doesn’t, you know, he just looks like a regular whatever. But back then, and um, and, but you know, my husband had a sense of confidence, but this kid also had such a sense of presence and confidence. 

And now what I can say is, and I know you know [00:54:00] about his family and his family history. He was so well loved. I think that’s what I believe. That’s, and that is the result, and that’s what it looks like. It’s like, it doesn’t matter what the outer package was, even during those gawky years, he showed up with such a presence and such a confidence because I think it was that he was securely attached and just so well loved and, and, and probably had bit felt, you know, I guess, you know, it’s more than love, but my way of saying he was well loved, is he probably during those first three years, felt safe in his nervous system the majority of the

Kirby Fling: That’s exactly what I was gonna say. It’s like the road releases back to safety again, is that it’s like I can be here fully present and accepting and investing in you because I’m fearless if I have a problem with another human being, the first question I should ask is, what am I so damn afraid of?

Randi Rubenstein: Hmm. 

Kirby Fling: And, and I feel like this is true with adult, romantic relationships, boss, parent, [00:55:00] child, whatever, is just like, what am I? So what am I protecting myself from? What am I afraid of? Where do I feel like there’s some kind of threat? You know, where do I feel like shame is, you know, right on the verge of, of, of happening, I guess.

I don’t know. But that was a major shift for me as I did all this work and studied attachment and all this other kind of stuff, and I began to see that it’s this, like it’s all coming back to this idea of safety and threat. And if I can identify the threat, what I’m so afraid of in communicating my truth with you, if I can identify that I now have agency, I can go in there and be like, oh, this is something I’m afraid of and I don’t want to communicate that because I feel like it’s gonna expose me, it’s gonna expose, it’s gonna expose me in a way that I won’t look so good or it’s gonna change your opinion of me [00:56:00] or whatever. Right? 

And interestingly, this is kind of the authentic relating angle is that like once we become good at that style of communication, we can just do this stream of consciousness. This is more adult to adult or adult to a, um, a mid to older teen is to just say. I want to share something with you, and I’m feeling fear about sharing it with you because I am afraid that it will affect the way that you think of me,

Randi Rubenstein: Hmm. 

Kirby Fling: and which is super vulnerable communication.

Randi Rubenstein: Mm-hmm. 

Kirby Fling: Then of course, children absorb what they’re around. So if I can become a master of that style of communication in my family unit and children around me, observing that, they will eventually begin to pick up on that communication style and they will begin to communicate in those manners. 

Um, I’ve got a friend that does, uh, Waldorf inspired, uh, preschool and [00:57:00] the whole Waldorf program. That’s one of the main things of the Waldorf program is to encourage children. How to communicate in this kind of style is to be like checking with myself, develop an awareness of what’s happening in my nervous system and my emotional state, and be able to verbalize that to the people around me, fearlessly. And you go to these schools where there’s all these children, they’re all communicating that style, and you’re just like, I feel like I’m on Mars. like it’s just like, this is so different. What the, what’s going on?

Randi Rubenstein: Mm-hmm. 

Kirby Fling: Then you see, you see the people that come out of it and you’re just like, oh, I get it. And I mean, not saying it’s, again, it’s not a panacea. pluses and minuses, but it’s, it’s, it’s a beautiful path. 

Randi Rubenstein: Mm-hmm. It really is. It’s just, yeah, I mean, especially in this crazy world, um, we’re still having kids, raising kids, um, like [00:58:00] humans continue to evolve and whatever we can do to provide safety to our own nervous systems at this point in time, and then show up as those humans, you know, that as when we’re with our pac, we’re the pack leaders and we’re with our little pack, and they’re gonna co-regulate with us.

So if we’re, if we’re truly attending to our own nervous systems, doing whatever we can to help ourselves to feel calm and like, I’m safe in this moment. Right. The world might feel incredibly unsafe and things are, you know, it’s like every time we turn right, we turn left. Something else that you never imagine possible is happening. And in this [00:59:00] moment, I’m gonna choose to, to create safety for myself. And then our kids, they, they will vibe off of that. They will co-regulate with that. Yeah.

Kirby Fling: Yes. 

Randi Rubenstein: Mm-hmm. I mean, it doesn’t sound, it’s not gonna be, some big splashy, you know. Thing that you’re gonna put on social media, media. Guess what? I regulated my nervous system, today, and me and my kids, we had, we, you know, we had a day that felt pretty good. Um, no one is doing that. 

It’s like everyone thinks that, that we’ve gotta be living these lives. What’s my purpose? What do I wanna do? How do I help? What’s my cause? How can I speak out? And it’s like raising human beings and, and doing this work. Being a part of this conversation, looking at yourself and asking yourself every, you know, moment to moment, what can I do to show [01:00:00] up as that safe pack leader for my kids? What do I do? What do I need to do to provide safety for myself? Like, to me, that is heroic work.

Kirby Fling: Absolutely. Absolutely. It’s superhero work. Yeah. 

Randi Rubenstein: Well, thank you once again. I, um, I know, I, I just, you’re such you’re such an amazing resource. I’m, I was telling, I was telling Kirby before he started recording that I sent his videos out all the time. Like I I would say daily I, 

Kirby Fling: wow. 

Randi Rubenstein: mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Kirby Fling: thank you so much. Uh, I, it’s, I mean, I love it. I love what I do. I love sharing the stuff. I mean, I am, sometimes I feel like I’m running out of ideas, and then I’ll have a new burst of new ones. But it’s like, you know, but um, yeah, it’s like talking to people and hearing the feedback and the way they’ll just come up and say, my life has changed because of [01:01:00] your video or the ideas that you’re sharing, or whatever. I’m just like, that’s such an honor.

Randi Rubenstein: Well, you’ve really taught me a lot and I’ll, I mean, of course I wrote down all kinds of things, but then we got into a whole conversation, and I think we covered most of the topics, but some of the videos that I, that I, the one about rejection, I think that’s a topic. Um, I thought, I thought that is a topic I do not hear spoken about. Um, and I think that that rejection. You know that, that to me, I was like, huh, rejection. I know that I still have. work to do when it comes to that. what’s this one about? And I listened to that video twice. Um, I thought that was a phenomenal, 

And then the one about parental shame, um, and, and [01:02:00] really unpacking why it feels disloyal to, you know, you were sharing about how some, you know, people have told you that like even doing the ideal parent meditation that you’ve put out, that you so generously put out, which I think is so incredible, um, that people feel disloyal to even go in and do that because like that whole topic of, of, parental shame, I thought that’s a fascinating topic.

Kirby Fling: Yeah, and it really, it really like, it dominates people. Like, it dominates their, their, their entire internal world is being dominated by this idea because that’s the lesson that their nervous system was taught their whole life. Is that like your loyalty, like Yeah. You know, disloyalty 

Randi Rubenstein: Honor thy mother and th thy father. Right, 

Kirby Fling: Yeah. Yeah. And, it’s like, yes, there’s a time when that’s fully appropriate, but there’s also times when it’s not. and, and, you know, if you can brainwash a person into never even considering not an [01:03:00] option, then you have obedience. You have a slave, 

Randi Rubenstein: Right. Then you have a slave. That’s right. It’s, yeah, I know. That’s what I, I mean, it’s like childhood is not synonymous with slavery. And, and the thing is, is that. It, it’s just interesting to me how it can be such a belief system that your parents don’t need to know you’re doing the ideal parent meditation. Like, you don’t have to tell anyone, but even just the, how it feels disloyal to even let yourself go there. Um, it just shows what a hold that has on so many of us.

Kirby Fling: Right. And, and becoming aware of those kinds of that that, that grip us is a huge part of the work. I’ve found that working with people is that like, you know, so much of the time, the, the process of healing has just as much to, it’s just as [01:04:00] connected to letting go as it is to grabbing new ideas.

It’s like, like we have these ideas that say this is right and that’s wrong, and if I do the wrong thing, I’m bad shameful, whatever. Which is, like you said, shame is always a reflection of an outside source and it’s just like letting that go and saying, actually you get to make the choice and there’s no shame in that because this is your life not theirs. there’s so many people that struggle to even get to that point. And

Randi Rubenstein: And if it feels disloyal, to even consider that, you know, you know, you get those physiological responses, you know that you could, the story about the mom who finally loses it could be you, but yet it feels too disloyal to even look at the conditioning that you received or remember what it was like for you if you were allowed to feel sad, [01:05:00] angry, upset, disappointed, and if you weren’t allowed, or if you did express those things, if you experienced some gaslighting, um, some shame from that. 

But yet you’re like, oh, ideal parent visualization. That sounds terrible. No, I’m good. Like I would say question that, right? Like question that belief system. Because if you really want to be a cycle breaker and to do it differently, there’s just no way around around that. You can’t circumvent it. You have to walk through. You have to walk through. 

Kirby Fling: To, to break a cycle, you have to change a belief. 

Randi Rubenstein: Yep. 

Kirby Fling: And you have to change a behavior. Yeah.

Randi Rubenstein: Yep. Well, thank you. Thank you, thank you. I could 

Kirby Fling: You’re welcome. 

Randi Rubenstein: Um, okay. 

Kirby Fling: Okay. Beautiful. Thank you. Thank you. 

Randi Rubenstein: All right. everyone. Until next time. [01:06:00] Bye. 

Thanks for listening today, guys. I hope you picked up some tips, tools, maybe some baby steps for creating more balance and boundaries in your life. And I just wanted to let you know, if you want to continue moving the needle forward in creating this for yourself, having a happier household, I want you to go to my website and check out mastermindparenting.com. We have three beginning programs, and if you need some accountability and more support then please look for the one that would be a good fit for you.

And, as always, we’re on all the social channels under Mastermind Parenting, on Instagram it’s mastermind_parenting. And, you know, periodically I do pop up on different Instagram lives, Facebook lives where I give you teaching and coaching and I love engaging with you live to help you help your strong-willed kids so that they can [01:07:00] feel better, because when they feel better they do better, and I love, love, love getting to know you guys. 

So thanks for listening. If you like this podcast, please don’t forget to subscribe, rate and review. Super, super appreciative.