330: Why Play And Joy Can Feel So Hard For Adults (a convo with Dr. Shawn Hondorp)

Audio MMP 330 – Shawn Hondorp Dance Recap

[00:00:00] Randi Rubenstein: My name is Randi Rubenstein, and welcome to the Mastermind Parenting Podcast. At Mastermind Parenting, we’re on a mission to support strong-willed kids and the families that love them. 

[00:00:10] Shawn Hondorp: Hi, everyone. Welcome back After a pretty long hiatus for the Innovative Therapist Podcast, I’m coming back to you with this episode where I sat down with Randi Rubenstein, my parent, coach, and mentor to unpack a really influential experience in my life, which was, uh, performing my first ever solo. In a art festival local here to Grand Rapids called ArtPrize.

[00:00:39] We recorded this about a week after the experience and. Went through some of the parts that it brought up in me, and then at the end of the conversation we also talk a little bit about how this exploration of creativity and coming alive applies to other contexts.

[00:00:56] We are unpacking really the ways that creativity can be a portal to healing, but also to stepping into our inner leadership, to accessing parts of ourselves that are really creative thinkers and creative problem solvers and can make us.

[00:01:15] You know, continue to pursue a work, work and life that really, really lights us up, which ends up being more of a gift to the world. That’s really, been something I’ve believed for a long time, and this experience of pursuing something that lights me up. Pursuing this creative outlet that has called to me has really allowed me to better understand myself, to heal parts of myself in ways that talk therapy or even.

[00:01:45] Uh, trauma therapy hasn’t been able to, there’s been this next level of healing that has been brought to me through my pursuit of creativity. And so yeah, Randi and I talk about all of it, and, uh, I hope that you can see yourself in this story and be thinking about, Hmm, what, where’s my creative spark? What, where are the things that feel like play, feel like joy, feel like fun to me and how can I take a little baby step towards them? So I hope you love this conversation as much as I did, as always, welcome back and let’s dive in.

[00:02:20] Hello everyone. We’re coming to you with Randi Rubenstein again, after a pretty long podcast hiatus. But this idea came to me this week. I reached out to Randi, and our goal for this conversation is really to process my recent experience performing my first dance solo. And we’ll be talking about themes around creativity and healing, all the parts that come up when we pursue what we really want to do, and processing this experience and how it’s been incredibly healing for me. And I think, has helped with continuing my path about accessing my own inner pack leadership. So thank you for being here with me as always. 

[00:03:14] Randi Rubenstein: Well, I’m happy to be here and it feels like play to talk to each other and to record a conversation. So this, this concept of play and creativity is, is a complicated one for me because I don’t feel like I play enough. I, even just the concept of joy is confusing to me. And, and so it’s been so cool to sort of be a fly on the wall of your process. What I’m starting to learn is that I do play a lot but my play doesn’t necessarily look like play to other people, but it feels like play to me. 

[00:04:03] And I, and because I’ve been doing some parts work recently, right, I, I understand now why play is so loaded for me. You know, like I uncovered an exile that she did not feel free to play. So no wonder, but I’ve learned, so she had to learn how to play in ways that didn’t necessarily look like play to other people, but felt like play to her. So I, and I’m, I’m in process so I don’t even fully understand it, but I’ve loved being a fly on the wall of your process of dance and because dance for me, like, like dancing in front of other people is the most vulnerable thing.

[00:04:51] Shawn Hondorp: you know, I’m smiling ’cause I’m remembering us on the retreat on the beach and you’re like, I feel uncomfortable. 

[00:04:58] Randi Rubenstein: Yeah. I feel so awkward. I feel so uncomfortable. I feel self-conscious, like you know, when I see people get really lost in a moment and, and it’s like I can feel the energy when someone is being performative versus being truly embodied. I feel it. 

[00:05:20] Shawn Hondorp: Yeah. 

[00:05:21] Randi Rubenstein: And, it feels like an amazing experience. Almost like I’m living vicariously when I, when I feel someone, and it’s weird to say somebody’s performative when they’re performing. Right, right. Like literally performing on a stage. But you can feel when the person’s energy is in that performative part.

[00:05:42] Yes. Right? Yeah. And you can feel when the person is truly embodied, whether they’re dancing, whether it’s comedy, whether it’s acting, whatever it is, you can feel that. And so when you share your dance videos with the group, with our little group, I can, I feel the moments in your performance when you are embodied. And it feels like a treat to get to sort of be a fly on the wall of that too. 

[00:06:16] Shawn Hondorp: Good. I didn’t know if it was possible for me until Sunday to feel as free and embodied as I did. That was my goal, is to get as embodied as I could on stage. But, I didn’t know what was possible and, 

[00:06:37] Randi Rubenstein: Well, do you wanna break down like what that feels like?

[00:06:42] Shawn Hondorp: Yeah. I think the best way to describe it is like, very free, very, very confident. And it’s, I guess similar to the self-energy Cs, very playful. Like there was, like, I knew it was possible, but yeah, like just the self-consciousness that I normally experience on stage, the perfectionism that I normally experience on stage, which makes a ton of sense.

[00:07:18] Right? It just wasn’t there, because I messed up. People keep saying, you didn’t mess up. I’m like, no, no, the video doesn’t exist. I did mess up on the turn. I don’t know how much, I don’t know what it looked like, but I did. And I, I, in the second video, you can see my face ’cause I was like a little more tired in that video. A little less embodied in this, the reenactment video. But the first video, I am pretty sure I did not make a, i, I know I didn’t make a face. I know I didn’t, I was just like, oops. You know, I fell out of the turn. Okay. 

[00:07:57] And, uh, that was the goal. I mean, you and I did some like pre-processing and that was the intention was just like, it’s not about hitting everything perfectly, but it was bizarre. I mean, it was weird for me because I’ve never, and it’s not like those parts are totally gone. Like even this week I danced and we performed again in front of one person. Like at the end of class sometimes like other people will come into class and it was so low pressure. But I had just learned the routine and , it’s one that we’re doing later this month and I felt the performative, like perfectionism again and the self-consciousness partly ’cause my brain hasn’t learned that dance yet.

[00:08:38] And I was just thinking about it a lot, but it’s not like that part’s gone. It’s just for those that four minutes or whatever. And leading up to it, I was just like, I’m gonna go do a fun thing. Like it was actually really fun. And dance has never felt that way for me. There was always a part of me that I knew it could.

[00:09:00] Randi Rubenstein: Yeah. I’m curious, do you want that part to be gone, that you were just talking about? 

[00:09:05] Shawn Hondorp: I would like to relax more often. So that even when I’m just playing around in the studio, even with, I actually just yesterday I’ll be spending more time in the studio just playing around with friends in an unstructured way because we have this like 24 7 access membership now where we can like, just get in on a Friday.

[00:09:30] If I don’t have clients, I can go play around and my friends can come and we can like, play around with choreography. And even in those settings, I actually find myself like getting performative. So in those settings, I would like it to relax for sure. Yeah. But I understand that there’s still gonna be times when it comes up. Because there is still like to use IFS language and exile that’s getting protected in those moments, right? And, and I think for me, I do know that there’s also a protector part of me that’s very young, that has a lot of fierce, confident energy too, and she’s had to hide. 

[00:10:17] Randi Rubenstein: Mm-hmm. 

[00:10:18] Shawn Hondorp: So some of the perfectionism and self-consciousness is maybe been learned to hide the parts of myself that are pretty confident and ready to be like, yeah, look at me.

[00:10:29] Randi Rubenstein: I’m like, now really curious about the part that, like when you went during free dance was wasn’t feeling totally embodied. So that part that was keeping you from feeling totally embodied, I’m actually super curious about that part, but I don’t know if you are. 

[00:10:50] Shawn Hondorp: Yeah. Which time? 

[00:10:51] Randi Rubenstein: When you said there was like the open dance time, like how this, how you can just go, oh 

[00:10:55] Shawn Hondorp: Yeah, yeah. That’s more like coming up. I’m anticipating it, but I’ve been in, I’ve done that before where even, even with making up this stance, I would be like showing them what I have so far.

[00:11:07] Then I’d be like, I don’t, I don’t know what I’m gonna do next. Like, I just get all awkward versus like, okay, you don’t know it. Or like, I’d be like, maybe something like this, maybe that’s db. And they’d be like, no, do that. It helps to have friends that you know are very supportive. Right. I think that’s a big piece of all of this with, of course we know that, but with a case, 

[00:11:28] Randi Rubenstein: but when were you, did you say, I thought it was a open dance time when y’all were just there kind of playing and messing around and there was one person watching. 

[00:11:38] Shawn Hondorp: That was this Thursday. It was not open dance. We just were learning this dance we’re doing in a month. And we had just learned a new parts and she just popped in to see what we have so far, I didn’t make this one up and it was this, I don’t know her well, but she’s very nice. Like there was no reason to be self-conscious. So yeah, your question is like, yeah, why can’t I let go in front of like one person or in that scenario or what parts?

[00:12:07] Randi Rubenstein: Well, it’s not, it’s not really. Why can’t you? It’s, yeah, the curiosity about the part that says Uhuh. danger, danger. There’s a new person. She’s not in the, the tribe that normally goes together. Here. You weren’t expecting her. Yeah. Like that part. Yeah. I’m curious about it, but I don’t know if you are.

[00:12:29] Shawn Hondorp: I think that that part is a part that I have named and gotten to know for a while that, I used to call my positive impression management part, which is kind of a dorky, like psychology term. ‘Cause there’s like tests that we do that if you’re trying to like show a good face on a test, it’ll like spike on that scale.

[00:12:51] So I named it that. But yeah. That’s just like, ah, people are looking. And, I remember the first couple recitals I did as an adult, and this was always the case as a kid too, but as an adult I was like, come on, it’s, you’re here to have fun. And I was almost like trying to push that part to relax.

[00:13:12] And I think I’ve mentioned to you that like one of my tap recitals, we went on a little earlier than I thought we were going to, and I almost didn’t have time to get worked up. And so it helped a little bit, but it was almost like a forcing of that part to relax versus really working with it. And so.

[00:13:34] It’s the same part that was like, what, you know, leading up to the solo, like what on earth have you gotten yourself into thinking? Yeah. What was people are gonna be like, who are, who was this person? Like what does, who does she think she is? It was the only solo in the show. Like who, she’s not like, like I’ve said, it’s not like, technically I’m the best person and that’s not what it’s about. But this part was like, what have you gotten yourself into? Right. This is, this is, 

[00:14:06] Randi Rubenstein: I know the whole week leading up, there was a lot coming up including, I mean, do you wanna talk about your neck pain at all? I mean, how is your neck pain now? 

[00:14:17] Shawn Hondorp: Oh, it’s gone. I mean, it’s gone, but it’s not totally, I’ve noticed it mildly.. When there’s like stressors coming up in this week with like, uh, it’s like, it’s almost at this part that’s just like, Hey, slow down. Or it happened this week when someone was going through something really painful that I, and I just sitting, I just, it was like, ah, this is painful. Like just having empathy for someone kind of brought it up a little bit.

[00:14:50] So it’s not just specific to performance, but it definitely got very active throughout the week leading up to the performance. And you know, I have to say, I never, and this is kind of, I know like for you and me, I think the reason I pulled back from the analyzing each little part is because I’m just trusting the process and like realizing, I don’t know, I’m not gonna exactly know which part neck pain came from.

[00:15:18] I think it came from this part that was like, this feels really scary and stressful and I need you to slow down. But the result of the neck pain, I was able to appreciate, which is it, it got me out of my head a little bit and into my body. And I just was like, I didn’t have capacity for a lot of things last week. Like, I just was like, I gotta, I can’t do anything else. I just need to focus on like, kind of going inward and in a way that might’ve helped, I don’t know, you know, helped me to trust myself. I feel like I was looking for less external validation than normal. I was just like more grounded even though I, the neck pain was still there. 

[00:16:04] It was kind of interesting. Like I let go of trying to getting, get rid of it and that helped it to get less, but it would still spike and go down. But I just allowed it to kind of do its waves and, you know, 

[00:16:18] Randi Rubenstein: What do you think helped you to kind of pivot from trying to get rid of it and praying that it went away? You know, because you had this big solo performance that, you know, why the hell did I sign up for this? What were you thinking? This was a terrible idea. All the things that happened, right? 

[00:16:40] Shawn Hondorp: Yeah. 

[00:16:40] Randi Rubenstein: Quite often for most of us, right? Before we, we said yes to a thing a month ago, six months ago, whenever, and now all of a sudden it’s the week of, and we’re like, what the fuck was I thinking? This is a terrible idea, right? 

[00:16:55] Shawn Hondorp: Yeah. 

[00:16:55] Randi Rubenstein: And that’s really just a part of us that is trying to talk us out of taking this risk. And that involves so much uncertainty. We don’t know how it’s gonna go or we’re gonna look stupid. So there’s all these parts that get activated, right, when there’s some risk involved. And then your body was literally like, yeah, I know you, you workaholic, you person who wears many hats and does all the things, I’m gonna force you to slow down. You know, and of course feel free to edit this ’cause this is your story. And it was just getting to be a fly on the wall of you processing during that week.

[00:17:35] Shawn Hondorp: No, it definitely forced me to slow down. Like, I would’ve worked more on Friday than I did. I didn’t work at all Friday, I got a massage and then I went to a somatic session. 

[00:17:46] Randi Rubenstein: Yeah. I mean, 

[00:17:47] Shawn Hondorp: That was a big part of it. And I think I, I do think there was a shift. Early in the week. I, I think it was Tuesday or something, because there was a part of me that was putting a lot of pressure on this performance. It was like, this is a one and done. You’re so scared you’re never doing this again. So you better feel good. You better feel perfectly good on stage. You better have no pain. And it was try, it was almost like a perfectionist part that was trying to perfect my own experience. And make sure my body felt as good as possible.

[00:18:18] And I, I had to be like, we don’t know if we’re gonna do this again. We might, we might not. I have no idea if I’m gonna do this again. But I, it was more of a growth mindset that I adopted and that helped me shift and be like, and also if you need to take Ibuprofen, it’s fine. Like, I, I knew that, but I just was like, I don’t know.

[00:18:43] I just didn’t want to. Fight with the pain all week, but I think I dropped, I, I used the term like acceptance and commitment therapy term, like drop the rope with just like, okay, so I have this pain, it’s fine, and, and I don’t have to have a perfect experience like that felt helpful. 

[00:19:05] Randi Rubenstein: Well, and I remember at one point when you were processing, there was something where you noticed the pain lessen a bit. I felt like that was, that felt to me like kind of a pivotal moment. It was like maybe two days before the performance and, and it seemed like it was oh, the pain. But of course, tell me if you disagree or what it actually was. It seemed like it was, oh, this pain, this neck pain needed to be here to sort of force me to look at all the different parts that are coming up for this perform and, and, and slow down and be in this body, versus distracting myself, being busy. You know, I got two kids, I got a full job, I got a full load. I’ve got all the things like, how easy would it have been to just go about your week and then all of a sudden get to the performance and expect yourself to get out of your head that you’ve been in all week and into your body.

[00:20:16] And so it seemed like there was a pivot like two days before where the neck pain and we started talking directly. We were like, just like, Hey, neck pain. Right. And I was referring to neck pain. You were referring to neck pain. Yeah. And we couldn’t figure out what part necessarily neck pain went with, but we just kind of talk directly to neck pain and started to even maybe like understand, I don’t know if you went as far as appreciation, but it seemed like there was a real understanding of oh, this you’re happening for me, not to me, even though this is really uncomfortable, but I don’t know. What are your Yeah. 

[00:20:52] Shawn Hondorp: Yeah. I think I got to it, really I think it was this lessening of, and I think this happens a lot of times when we have parts that, especially when they’re sending painful experiences, right? Like physical pain, like, but even parts that send anxiety, like it makes sense that other parts of us are like, have an agenda to get rid of that. It does, but it’s also this not being as reactive to it and just being like, you’re here for a reason and I’m gonna stop trying to get rid of you. You know? And in some ways I was still doing things that I did hope would get rid of it. Right? Getting a massage, doing a somatic experience session. 

[00:21:37] But I also was not tied to, I kind of actually figured my, it wasn’t gonna go away. I actually didn’t expect it to go away anymore. And that expectation helped to lessen the pressure and then it was allowed to just like come and go and, yeah. And then interestingly, then Saturday came and then I got more of the nerves again. ’cause it was like almost with the neck pain, I was like so distracted from like the nerve and the nervous parts. So that was, I think another thing get outta your head into your body in a way that doesn’t feel great, but is still, I don’t know, like when you’re in pain, it’s hard to focus too on analyzing things. 

[00:22:20] Randi Rubenstein: yeah, we, you know, you’ve heard me say it a million times. We think we’re thinking animals, but even more so we’re feeling animals. Yeah. Right. Yeah. And, and so the whole I, this whole idea of embodiment, I think it can be a really sort of lofty concept and hard to wrap your arms around when you are a person who has a lot of fierce protector parts that learned to numb your body, you know, and, and me too, right? So like this whole idea of embodiment, I’m like, what the fuck does that even mean?

[00:23:02] Like, I know how to analyze and think and, bullshit myself convince, I mean, I’m an amazing salesperson in terms of this is the reason. 

[00:23:14] Shawn Hondorp: Yeah. 

[00:23:14] Randi Rubenstein: But then your body feels something different, right? 

[00:23:19] Shawn Hondorp: Yeah. 

[00:23:19] Randi Rubenstein: And, and so this embodiment practice, and especially where it’s like something like dance, it seems like, it’s like why does a grown woman, why is she doing a dance recital? Like, what is this all about? Like I could see so many people in Brene Brown’s words, in the cheap seats. 

[00:23:38] Shawn Hondorp: Oh yeah. Judgy. I’m sure they do. 

[00:23:41] Randi Rubenstein: How trivial, how ridiculous. What is this? 

[00:23:44] Shawn Hondorp: Yeah. 

[00:23:45] Randi Rubenstein: But really it’s like this whole process is to a way to truly become embodied and understand what that feels like, or from my viewpoint. And, and then the leading up to it, noticing all these parts that come up right, where the stakes are really not that high. It’s

[00:24:08] Shawn Hondorp: Right? Yeah. Yeah. Well, you know, it’s interesting too, uh, to think about the parts of us that like to analyze, right? You and I both have strong analyzer parts. You may be even more than me in a, well, I don’t know. I do too. But it might just look a little different. And even like after the dance, ’cause we have a, a relationship where I do feel comfortable being like, I can’t, I can’t analyze anymore. Like where it kind of got to the point where. Like I just knew the analyzing and even to this point, like today, I can’t be like, well let me tell you neck pain, she’s four.

[00:24:45] And I can, I can give you a sense, I have some 4-year-old protector parts that are fierce and I have a sense of some of these parts, but I still don’t know exactly where neck pain came from. I just know that the intention of that part is trying to slow me down. And you after, because I was all obsessed with the fact that I didn’t have the video and you were like wanting to continue to like dig and analyze and figure out what parts connected to what I had to be like, I can’t, I can’t analyze it anymore.

[00:25:16] And I’ve gone through these balance and I think the more I’ve danced, I trust myself to like go there when I need to go there when it feels helpful and pull back when I’m like, I’m not sure. And that’s okay too, like. Even with I’ve, I did listen to this week. I feel like each time I do a dance performance, I listen to like one podcast about dance movement therapy or how movement and dance can heal trauma. But I don’t, I almost don’t wanna know too much because it gets me too in my head and I’m like, the whole thing about this is just trusting the process and, you know, not over analyzing any of it. 

[00:25:57] Randi Rubenstein: Well, it was interesting, it was like the, after the dance I was like, update on the dance and I really just wanted to know how you felt. Right, right, right. And, how, how you felt and how it went and yeah, just from your viewpoint. And you, the, the video, you know, this, your instructor who, nor or what is she, what do y’all call it? 

[00:26:25] Shawn Hondorp: Dance teacher? Yeah. Yeah. Dance teacher. 

[00:26:28] Randi Rubenstein: This was like this rare case of the file got corrupt and it didn’t exist. And, yeah. And so your normal process of rewatching the performance and then sharing the performance with, you know, people that you want to see it, that, you know, there was a lot of disappointment in that part of it. 

[00:26:53] And, and me pushing you was really, you know, me being like, why is it not enough just to know that this thing happened? And it was amazing. Your experience was amazing and you learned a lot. And, like could it just be enough for you to just tell us about your experience? Yeah. And we kind of, you know, and then the going back and forth with you being like, you know, look, it’s, it’s not the external validation, I just wanna share this joy with, or that’s what I heard. I wanna share this joy with other people. I want to watch it again. I want to experience, again, I wanna be reminded of how I felt out there. I’m, you know, like, I need to experience this disappointment without analyzing the fuck out of it. 

[00:27:44] Shawn Hondorp: Yeah, it was both, it was both, right? Like you were onto something and it was true. And like there was a part of me that was looking for the external validation that like, did that actually happen? Can I believe my experience? But it was also, you know, also other things about the video that was really disappointing that even though like just wanting to be able to share that, which mostly got appeased for me once I got the reenactment video because it still gives a general picture and I wanted to share it with Courtney who sang the song that I danced to.

[00:28:18] Like stuff that people that aren’t in the room. I mean, I, I could have. You know, with her specifically, we’re gonna talk on the phone and we’re gonna process. We just haven’t yet. And, but she couldn’t see how I moved to her specific lyrics, like without the video. So there was that too. But you, well, 

[00:28:38] Randi Rubenstein: it was also helpful to me. I mean, I loved getting to watch the video and it helped me to like, I just understood it more because I’m not a dancer and that’s not, you know, and so we can talk about this and I, and sort of pick it apart, but like getting to see the video also, let me really understand what it is you did out there.

[00:29:03] Shawn Hondorp: Right. 

[00:29:04] Randi Rubenstein: So I, yeah, so that’s just completely true. 

[00:29:07] Shawn Hondorp: It’s like it was both right and I think it was the uncertainty of like, I’m trying to process this experience and I don’t know if there’s a video or not. ’cause there was like 12 hours where it was just like, we don’t know. And so that was hard. But once I knew it’s gone, I was sad for a minute, but it was like, it’s fine.

[00:29:29] Like it was pretty easy to process through it once I knew like, oh, that’s a bmer. And like, yeah, there’s, there’s value to having to process it without a video. ’cause normally I always have a video with almost any meaningful dance that I do. So, uh, so there’s value in this particular one. It just doesn’t exist. Because we, you know, the rare instance where we had someone videoing and we told everyone not to, so it’s, there’s no video that exists. And so it’s kind of interesting, 

[00:30:07] Randi Rubenstein: that is so interesting because it’s like, if the video had just existed, then you wouldn’t have gone through all of those feelings. The disappointment, the sadness, the looking at, you know, why do I really need this video? What do I need, you know, and coming to terms with, okay, maybe there is some external validation. Okay. Good to know. Yeah. But more importantly. I want the video for me to Yeah. You know, like that’s what you were, that’s what I was hearing from you is like where you, where you’ve gotten to was I wanted it to exist for me and I wanted to share it with people so they could get to

[00:30:50] Be in that experience again together. And we could talk about it and we could process and I could let, it was almost like a bridge, it seems like, like an olive branch to like, let people that you wanna let in, you know, understand you and see that, you know, just what you experienced.

[00:31:08] I don’t know. 

[00:31:09] Shawn Hondorp: Yeah, totally. It’s, it’s both and I mean, I think that even if I think about, I went to, I did tap, I started tap for a couple years and then I went back to this jazz contemporary, which is really what I always loved growing up. And the very first class I went to, I think it was like a year and a half ago.

[00:31:27] They were like, okay, well now we’re gonna perform it. And we always take videos. So I have a video of my very first dance class. Like I have a video of this whole thing, but I don’t go back and show people the video of my first class. Right. I, but it’s interest, it’s, it’s just interesting for me to be like, oh, do you rewatch?

[00:31:45] Have you found yourself going back and rewatching it? Yeah, sometimes. Yeah. Yeah. A hundred percent. Just for fun, like to just be like, Aw, like, whoa. I was panicking before I walked into that class. And then I had a lot of fun. It was really hard. And I have a video to commemorate and to remember. ’cause it is easy to forget exactly even how you felt sometimes.

[00:32:08] . Like, or you, you can generally remember how you felt, but I don’t know, just remembering the song that we danced to and ’cause I, without the video, like even the song, it was just like a really emotional song and I didn’t even know what it was about ’cause I was so focused on the movements. But then I watched, I was like, whoa. That was a deep song. It was about like suicide and like, yeah. My very first class. So, so yeah, I, I don’t, but I don’t share that mo, you know, unless there was a reason to, or my dance friends and I be like, oh my gosh, remember this one? This was our first class together. Like, so it’s, so much of this journey is mega docented, right? Like it’s just the norm. So it was like,

[00:32:50] Randi Rubenstein: It’s so interesting. It’s like even just the rewatching of yourself, like you said, there’s a very young part that does have this fierce confidence in that. Is that how you described her? And, and I’m thinking if you think about a 4-year-old, I, like, I remember with my kids like that point, it was so, such a, a sad point when I could tell they weren’t in little kid Lala land anymore, they all of a sudden became aware of themselves and what other people might think. 

[00:33:25] Like I remember that moment. I remember Corey playing Little League early, early years, and me and my dad and Scott all, he wasn’t that young, I wanna say by this point he was maybe in like second grade, okay. and I remember us sitting in the stands and Scott and my dad, one of them right, said. He like, he like goes from the dugout. His team was going back to the field, you know, outfield. So he, he goes from the dugout and he’s running out there. He just loved being a part of a team. You know, it wasn’t even ever really about the sports for Corey. He loved being part of a team. Yeah. And I would see, you know, my joy agenda was always fulfilled. Just kind of seeing when little, when little kid Lala land, when you have those moments and you get to, you get to witness it, it’s just because I didn’t really have that much as a little kid, so I’m like, ugh, scattering.

[00:34:24] My dad said, one of them said, at what, how old is he gonna be when he stops actually skipping out onto the field, like at some point. and I like looked at them and I was like, if either of you ever say that to Corey, I will murder you in your sleep. And, and they were like, we’re not gonna say it to him.

[00:34:48] I was like, I can only imagine. ’cause they’re both, you know, they both had that kind of, you know, male, especially my dad, you know, macho, whatever. And I was like, I will murder you. I will murder you. And they were like, we’re not, we’re not. I’m like, that is joy. That is tangible joy. He’s skipping out onto the field.

[00:35:07] And he wasn’t like, skip, like, he was like running and then there would be a little skip running and then a little skip. And I was just like, he’s like, and I, and you, I just remember like with each of them when they went from playing and me getting to be a fly on the wall and just delight and watching them play.

[00:35:28] Which what I’ve uncovered recently is that’s what a young part of me, that’s all she truly wanted. She never got that. She never felt that. She never felt like anyone would just sit and be a fly on the wall of her and delight in her joy. Right? Yeah. And her unselfconscious in a moment. Magical thinking.

[00:35:51] Yep. And so like to be, to, to be able to watch yourself back and delight in it is sort of almost like you being that parent to your parts and delighting in your experience, 

[00:36:11] Shawn Hondorp: that’s an interesting way to think about it. As you were saying it, I kind of got chills because I do know what happened Sunday. I was in my joy, like I know that, and I did have a lot of people that were there. It’s not so much about what they experienced, but there is something like, that’s just the cherry on top though. Like of just like, of course you want people to delight with you, right. 

[00:36:43] And I think that’s part of why I wanted the video, right? Because I wanted to see what the joy looked like. And I would say the reenactment video, you see some of it, like I see pieces of it where I just know that I was a little more tired and a little less joyful than I was the actual day it happened.

[00:36:58] But, but you still get the vibe of it. So I’m like satisfied with that. And I think I can remember back and I think, I don’t know, most people that, 

[00:37:10] Randi Rubenstein: Can I pause? Can I ask you a question? 

[00:37:11] Shawn Hondorp: Yeah. 

[00:37:13] Randi Rubenstein: So let’s just say there’s a master planner out there, right? We don’t know. Some people might call it God, the universe, whatever. And there’s this some plan that’s meant for Shawn and the video, uh, the night of the performance was always supposed to be corrupted. And there was supposed to be no actual documentation of that experience other than in your mind and in your body. And whoever was there, whoever was lucky enough to be there with their eyes there with you, right?

[00:37:53] They felt what they felt, what they felt. You felt what you felt. And, then you were also meant to do the reenactment video the next night, where you were a little tired. And so you, you went through and here’s the dance. And there were moments where you were embodied, but also it wasn’t the exact same experience.

[00:38:15] You didn’t have the, you know, guided, scared and excited feeling performance day and all of that. Yeah. So let’s just say it happened exactly as it was meant to happen. Why do you think, like, what do you think master planner out there is saying? It had to happen exactly in this way because the lesson and the learning and the message was what? Fill in the blank. 

[00:38:40] Shawn Hondorp: Well, I’m laughing ’cause you did ask me this and I’m like, what did I say? But I mean, because I, at that time I was like, oh, I don’t know. I’m still kind of mad. But, uh, no, I think, I mean, I think it’s like. I believe myself, right? Like, I believe I know what happened, and that’s enough. 

[00:39:02] Randi Rubenstein: like, I mean, would you feel comfortable closing your eyes and just seeing if the message comes through, like, like you’re speaking as the master planner and you’re speaking directly to Shawn. Oh, this had to happen exactly as it happened.

[00:39:21] Shawn Hondorp: Yeah. 

[00:39:21] Randi Rubenstein: what did you want Shawn to learn? She needed to learn. What, or she needed to perceive the message of what? 

[00:39:31] Shawn Hondorp: To be honest, I think there’s still this little part of me that’s like, Nope, this wasn’t supposed to be the plan. Yeah. It’s wrong. It’s wrong to have this missing piece of documentation. I’ve accepted it, but it’s not the plan. That’s a little resistant to that part. It’s like a little resistant to it. But if I can try to embody it, it’s like, I don’t know. You’re, this is how it’s, I can’t quite access. I was gonna say like, this is how it’s supposed to be. You can believe yourself. There’s not always gonna be documentation. I guess that’s actually an important one that feels really important. There’s not always gonna be done. 

[00:40:16] Randi Rubenstein: You said something right before and then you cut yourself off. So I just wanna circle back. 

[00:40:20] Shawn Hondorp: You can believe yourself. Yeah. 

[00:40:22] Randi Rubenstein: You can believe yourself. 

[00:40:24] Shawn Hondorp: Yeah. That like, that book Believing Me, I did end up reading it, but the title, it’s like, it is like Mother Hunger. It’s like the title represents the whole book. Believing Me is a memoir by a psychologist. And, uh, that’s come up to me a lot. Right. Believing I believe myself, I know what happened. It doesn’t matter how it looks like, I know what I felt and I do know that. 

[00:40:51] Randi Rubenstein: Yeah. 

[00:40:52] Shawn Hondorp: and that matters. Right. And I think that that’s the biggest thing when we’ve experienced gaslighting or when we’ve, when we’re healing from gaslighting, which is actually a really challenging thing to heal from sometimes because it’s can be confusing and subtle. Like I know what happened. 

[00:41:14] Randi Rubenstein: But if you were told over and over again, stop. You’re making that up. That’s ridiculous. That’s nonsense. No, you’re wrong. I mean, all those little comments will cause you to feel like, like what? I’m not like, nobody’s gonna believe me. They’re just gonna probably make me feel worse. Or challenge what, the thing that I reported, they’re gonna be like, that’s, that didn’t happen. That’s not true. Yep. They’re not gonna show up with curiosity. They’re not gonna just believe me. Just give me the benefit of the doubt no matter what, that my experience was exactly what it was. 

[00:41:58] And so, yeah, like that message of you, you know, you were meant to make the reenactment video to, to, to be a visual. To take you back and remind you of like to go back into your body and remember, oh, what did I feel in the dance? And I can’t pick apart the actual performance, you know, the performance dance because I don’t have that. And all I can rely on is my own memory and whatever’s coming right now in my body. And. It. It’s the truth. It’s my truth. I believe me. 

[00:42:45] Shawn Hondorp: that’s well said. It couldn’t come through me. ’cause I still have a part of me that’s like, but I want the video. But I do think, and you, you know, I think this was partly what you were getting to when we were first processing, why is this video so important?

[00:42:58] Is there is a part of me that did experience a lot of gaslighting and, and still does, you know, and that, that documentation part Yes. The other things we said are still true. Right. I wanted it for other reasons. I wanted it for myself. I wanted it to share. But a big part of it has been, I’m trying to docent because I haven’t always been believed, right?

[00:43:25] . And, and many of us struggle with believing our kids when they come home and they’re like, I. You know, my friend said this to me, my friend was mean to me. We struggle with just like being present with their experience. And so gaslighting can happen on a variety of scales and on a continu where it’s like really consistent or where it’s more sporadic, but it’s really painful.

[00:43:49] And I think that that’s, that is for sure that part of me that was like, oh no, I need this. I need this to believe this happened. Right. And, it’s like both and like there was multiple parts up that wanted that video and, but I dobel I mean, I, I do very much and that’s why I’m grateful for this conversation too, to continue to like, process and docent in other ways, because that is important to me and that helps me, and that’s okay. Yeah. But, but yeah, there’s no visual evidence of it. This one time, probably the only time it’ll ever happen. 

[00:44:29] Randi Rubenstein: Yeah. This one time maybe happened for you, not to you because you had to like, like it’s not about getting rid of the documentation. You, you sound very clear that you like to have it, you like to revisit it and go back to it, and it, it, it’s a visual cue to take you back into that moment. But there was this one time, your very first solo where it, you know, it, the file got corrupted and so all you could rely on was the memory in your body of what it felt like during the performance and, and this, this process of sort of just like, it’s enough to just believe that this happened and this is what I felt. 

[00:45:22] Shawn Hondorp: Yeah. 

[00:45:23] Randi Rubenstein: And that’s, that’s a no documentation needed. Like, that’s my truth. 

[00:45:28] Shawn Hondorp: Totally. Yeah. And now it’s like, it’s really, it is actually like a really intoxicating feeling too, going back to what you said. And it’s like, so how can I get more of that? And not, or at least yeah. Like feeling that grounded and in your joy is like, it’s intoxicating and it’s in a, in a, in a, it’s addictive, but not in like a, the traditional addictive way where you’re seeking that dopamine hit and then it’s not fulfilling. Like, that was very fulfilling and I can remember it. I can even like, think about it right now and I get like, an excited feeling in my stomach. 

[00:46:05] Randi Rubenstein: Hmm. It takes us back to when we were small han beings and we had no other way. To be in the world other than embodied, we were present. You know, it’s like little kids when that, you know, un self-consciousness when you see them playing with toys or things and you know, and even before they have inner speech, I remember when they’re like, they’re talking out loud because they can’t even, you know, I remember it when it shifted. 

[00:46:38] My daughter did this the most out of all three of my kids. But I remember it shifted, you know, she’d play with little stuffed animals or figurines, and then I remember seeing her and she’d just be holding it up and the two stuffed animals or figurines would be having a full conversation. But I didn’t know what the conversation is because now she has inner speech in her head, right?

[00:46:58] I think for her it was around six. And for my boys it was maybe a little older. It’s typically around seven. And so I think Avery was like six and a half or so. And I remember I always used to hear her little mini mouse chatter voice. And because she sounded ju she was very high pitched and no one could understand her. And at five years old, we had to put her in speech therapy because the only people that could understand her were me and her older brother, Alec. Everyone else was like, what the hell did she just say? 

[00:47:27] And , and so I remember it was just like, I loved it. I’d, I’d see her lost and play and I’d hear it, and then all of a sudden I’d, stopped hearing it, but she was still doing it. Yeah. She was embodied in that moment and she didn’t even know what the hell was going on around her. Yeah. And so as an adult, when you have these experiences and you get to sort of re you know, reconnect with that younger part that many of us lost a long time ago.

[00:47:59] Shawn Hondorp: Yeah. 

[00:47:59] Randi Rubenstein: That’s pretty freaking magical. 

[00:48:01] Shawn Hondorp: Totally. And it’s like, it’s like, because as an adult we have to function in these various capacities, right? We have to access like even the dance, I would say, even though it’s a lot of muscle memory, I’m still functioning.

[00:48:15] I’m not totally improving out there. Right? Like I have a completely. Predetermined routine pretty much. But what I, I guess what I’m thinking, and this is just my example, ’cause in two days I’m giving a talk where I’m speaking to therapists about like sustained and alignable aligned income streams. And it’s a talk I’m really excited about, feels very like, zone of genius, right?

[00:48:38] And I’m hoping I can embody a similar feeling. It’s probably not gonna be quite as exciting, but maybe it will. I don’t know where I am sharing my own story of getting really burnt out. Just like I was sharing my story in the dance and, but I have points to get through. So it’s this like, we’re connecting with these parts and we’re integrating them into us as an adult.

[00:49:00] And that feels really playful and good. And to me that’s zone of genius to me. That’s creativity. To me. That is what connecting with these playful parts that are just in the present moment, totally not aware of time. But we can find ways to integrate them into our adult life that are really life giving.

[00:49:22] And, but it’s a tricky balance, right? Because I’m going into this talk with slides and with talking points. And with an agenda, and I’m gonna be aware of what time it is so I don’t overstep my hour. But I think there are ways that, and I think that’s why reconnecting with these younger parts, like it’s, so, I think that’s why creative hobbies, that’s my guess why creative hobbies make people more innovative thinkers is because these little hans have a lot of wisdom to bring the table that we shut out because we have all of our agendas and our, you know, adult rules and controls.

[00:50:02] Randi Rubenstein: Well, think about it, it’s like, you know, act like an adult. Yeah, you know what, what would a parent say to a kid who, you know, you stop being so, immature. And right. And so like, if that’s part of the culture, then becoming present in a moment and truly embodied and losing track of time. I mean, think about the, you know, get your head out of the clouds.

[00:50:28] What did I just say? You know? And so if that hasn’t been celebrated to sort of, you know, get lost in yourself, I mean, granted, sometimes it’s boring, you know, the teacher was boring and the kid learned to dissociate, you know, so Yeah. It’s not like they’re totally embodied, but, you know, sometimes it’s like kids are so in their present moment and people then are like, what a space cadet, you know, he’s just not maturing like the other boys are.

[00:51:02] Like, I’ve heard that from, you know, some of my moms, that they’ll hear that from, from professionals and it’s like, or maybe he’s a kid that is. Is still in that season of life where he gets to be literally in this present moment and we’re putting all these negative connotations, right? And, and so yeah, as an adult, like we do have to do a lot of adulty things, right? . And, and prepare for the talk and make the slides and ha use your executive functioning skills to like, put a system in place where you’re gonna be checking the time and you’re gonna have whatever, you know, clock or thing that’s gonna be that visual where, you know, you’ll check with the time and you’re gonna be managing a lot during that talk.

[00:51:52] Yep. But if the intention is like, I think that’s what can help so much when you’re giving a presentation or, just something that anchors you if you know the intention is to have fun while walking people through an experience, a lot of times that’s my intention, so I’m just sharing it. Sure. Yeah.

[00:52:14] Right. Like, I want to walk people through a meaningful or impactful experience, and I wanna have fun doing it. 

[00:52:24] Shawn Hondorp: Yeah. Totally. And it’s like knowing, for me, the similar parts, positive and pressure management will probably come up. Like if I notice a, if I happen to notice someone making a face or they make a comment that makes me worried about what they’re thinking of me, that can pull up that part.

[00:52:39] But if I know, I do know that part’s probably around four, pretty young, like really had learned pretty young to monitor because my confident self was not responded great to people weren’t a huge fan of her. Yeah. So I had to have some self-consciousness of reading the room. And so I, I do. That is actually, that was what I had planned to do before the dance is I had this piece of paper that was reminding me like, check in with this part and check in with this part.

[00:53:10] But, but yeah, like have that intention, but then also know these parts are probably gonna come up or they might, so you have a plan for how to re, how to maybe get them to relax at least somewhat. 

[00:53:24] Randi Rubenstein: Or what if you, instead of relaxing her, what if you put her to work. How could she work? How could this sort of hypervigilant reading the room, impression management part. Yeah. You know, she, what if she wants to be given a job? 

[00:53:39] Shawn Hondorp: Yeah. 

[00:53:40] Randi Rubenstein: And because you are walking people through an experience, right? Yeah. And managing so many other things. You know, that might be an opportunity to sort of give her a job, let. Her know you appreciate her. And put her to work in a way that’s going to support you in having fun and creating the experience that you want.

[00:54:03] Shawn Hondorp: Yeah, totally. It might be like different for different experiences, but for, for the dance, like I wanted her to kind of relax and just, you don’t have to worry about this, we’re just here to have fun. But for that experience, the talk like it is actually good to have a read on the room. It’s a group of probably like 30 to 40.

[00:54:18] Right. It’s managing that, having a, a part that’s aware of what’s the temperature of the room is hugely helpful for having that. Yeah. Like playful experience and like acknowledging and so yeah, like letting her know, thanks for making me aware of that. And I’m going like, keep, keep being on board. I’m gonna keep telling my story, but like, or I’m gonna keep going with the, the talk as planned, but.

[00:54:48] Yeah. 

[00:54:48] Randi Rubenstein: But also like, you’ll be able to pivot during the talk because you give a talk. I mean, how many times have we gone to talks and the person’s just showing the freaking slides and you know, you’re, ya. Like, I notice when I’m doing something if somebody’s yawning or if somebody has their arms crossed or somebody has a scowl on their face.

[00:55:08] Like I have a similar part, a protector part. Right. That’s, that’s a super hypervigilant part. And my way of putting that part to work is if I see people yawning then I know I need to give them a task. I need to, I need to put a question out there and get some participation. ’cause like, they need to get the blood flowing, right. Sure. They’ve been in listening mode for too long. But if I have somebody that’s like shut down, arms crossed, I can tell they’ve got a, you know, a real skeptical part. 

[00:55:45] Shawn Hondorp: Sure. 

[00:55:45] Randi Rubenstein: And whatever it is, I’m dishing out. They’re like, I’m not buying it. 

[00:55:49] Shawn Hondorp: Yeah. 

[00:55:50] Randi Rubenstein: It doesn’t feel safe to buy it. So what that always lets me know is, is that’s a person that I, I, I need to connect with that person because they’re not feeling safe to take in new information.

[00:56:03] Shawn Hondorp: Yeah. 

[00:56:03] Randi Rubenstein: And so I immediately know that that person is shutting down. They feel unsafe. But if I care about that person, if I help that person in the audience feel seen, whether it’s looking at them, whether it’s, if it’s a small workshop, I can say, okay, I can tell something’s not sitting well with you. You’re calm. Bullshit. Give it to me. Give it to me. Like, like you, like really? Like, I wanna hear it. Yeah. And, and like seeing that person, but not like putting ’em in this, on the spot, but being like really like, please poke holes. This is the part I love, I love, I love my skeptics. 

[00:56:40] Shawn Hondorp: Yeah, totally. Right. 

[00:56:41] Randi Rubenstein: And so if I give a little love to that person. Then that person. But I am curious. Right. So it is authentic, it’s not manipulative. Yeah. And then that person all of a sudden feels seen and is allowed to say, yeah, I wasn’t really buying this thing, or I didn’t, I disagree in this way. Okay. Let me hear it. That’s a good point. That’s a great question.

[00:57:04] Let’s unpack that a little bit. Totally. Like that person now all of a sudden is invited into the experience. It always makes the presentation better. So that impression management, hypervigilant part is, you know, super helpful. You know? Yeah. It’s really super helpful when they show up. 

[00:57:23] Shawn Hondorp: Totally. Yeah. I love that. Yeah, I could definitely do that. 

[00:57:28] Randi Rubenstein: Yeah. So good. Okay. Obviously we could talk all day. Because we love each other. 

[00:57:35] Shawn Hondorp: Yeah. 

[00:57:37] Randi Rubenstein: But I, I’m glad that you invited me to, to, to talk about this experience, because I, I’m hoping that everybody that’s listening will realize, like, you know, we can study how do you achieve blah, blah, blah, or how do you heal from, but, but really like, like sharing and experience a real life creative act and all that’s come up for you around this creative act like.

[00:58:12] It’s kind of like when I say like, who told you when you became a parent that it was really gonna be, a forever journey of growing yourself. Right? It’s like the ultimate personal development program. ’cause your kids are gonna hold a mirror up and you’re gonna face yourself over and over and over again. Nobody tells anybody that. Right. But I think that’s what’s going on here too. Like, here’s, there’s so many powerful lessons. 

[00:58:38] Shawn Hondorp: Yeah, totally. I did. Yeah. The, the process, the process is amazing and healing and hard, right? Like, it’s like, kind of similar to parenting. It can be amazing and healing and very hard. And, uh, yeah, this, a lot of this process was good, but there was a lot of moments throughout where. I was like, I don’t know if I’m even gonna do this. So it’s, uh, or I don’t know if I can, and so, yeah. No, I appreciate. 

[00:59:07] Randi Rubenstein: Or entrepreneurship or, you know, anything that we’re Yeah, we’re learning. We’re, I mean, we’re experimenting a lot. We’re risking failure and rejection. Yeah. We’re not sure we have goals that, and results we wanna get. We don’t know exactly how to get there. I mean, I think this is just the han experience, right? Yeah. 

[00:59:31] Shawn Hondorp: Right. And if, yeah, my hope is that it’s like, obviously it’s not necessarily gonna be dancing a solo, but there’s things calling to you that you are not doing. and if the environment supports you doing those things, which my environment ended up supporting this, it. I love it. It is worth it. I think. 

[00:59:52] Randi Rubenstein: Thanks so much for inviting me to have this conversation with you.

[00:59:55] Shawn Hondorp: Yeah, thank you so much. It was really fun. 

[00:59:57] Randi Rubenstein: So fun.

[00:59:58] Thanks for listening today, guys. I hope you picked up some tips, tools, maybe some baby steps for creating more balance and boundaries in your life. And I just wanted to let you know, if you want to continue moving the needle forward in creating this for yourself, having a happier household, I want you to go to my website and check out mastermindparenting.com. We have three beginning programs, and if you need some accountability and more support then please look for the one that would be a good fit for you.

[01:00:32] And, as always, we’re on all the social channels under Mastermind Parenting, on Instagram it’s mastermind_parenting. And, you know, periodically I do pop up on different Instagram lives, Facebook lives where I give you teaching and coaching and I love engaging with you live to help you help your strong-willed kids so that they can feel better, because when they feel better they do better, and I love, love, love getting to know you guys. 

[01:01:06] So thanks for listening. If you like this podcast, please don’t forget to subscribe, rate and review. Super, super appreciative.