331: Why Sex Might Feel Like a Chore (with Dr. Rebecca Eudy)

[00:00:00] Dr. Rebecca Eudy: The kids are really cute. The kids are really lovable. The kids are on you all the time, and it’s both overwhelming and deeply satisfying. And so then at the end of the day, you know the partner who’s like not as cute, they don’t have much to offer. 

[00:00:22] Announcer: For over a decade, Dr. Rebecca Eudy has helped couples with kids improve their relationships and their sex lives. 

[00:00:28] Dr. Rebecca Eudy: Where fantasy and desire and all of the exciting parts, orgasm, a lot of that happens in the mind. And so if. Your mind is preoccupied with your to-do list or worried about performance it really can have a big impact on how enjoyable sex is 

[00:00:47] Announcer: In her new book, Parents In Love, she shares how to prevent the stress of raising kids from killing desire in your relationship and your sex life.

[00:00:54] Dr. Rebecca Eudy: Girls and women we’re coached to take care of other people’s emotions. men and boys don’t. haven’t gotten that coaching. And so what. I try to do with couples is help them to find the tools and find the words to connect in different ways as well, and that does bring desire back a little bit more into balance. 

[00:01:22] Randi Rubenstein: Okay, so let’s just jump into it. We’re gonna talk about sex. And before we started recording, um, I said I’ve coached many moms specifically, I think. God, I’ve never had to coach a dad on this, but it’s always like a joke because I’m like, I am by no means skillful or like I, like, I should not be coaching anyone on sex, but it ends up being we coach on other things, but the topic is just around sex.

[00:01:52] So I’m excited to talk to you because. It’s like now to have somebody here that we can talk about it and you can teach me as well, and, um, I think it’s just a, it’s sort of a taboo topic, but it’s something that is a part of most adult relationships and it’s pretty important. And so I’m super excited to kind of dig into this with you today.

[00:02:17] Dr. Rebecca Eudy: Yeah. Thank you so much for having me. I’m excited to talk about it too.

[00:02:20] Randi Rubenstein: Okay, so let’s talk about, let’s, I would love to know when you’re coaching specifically parents, parents of children, let’s say birth to 10, do you notice around sex, like there, there are certain themes that you see in your office a lot. With parents of that age group, and I would just love to know what they are.

[00:02:49] Dr. Rebecca Eudy: you know, I think the themes of that age group definitely tend to be more skewed on the touched out. So I hear that a lot touched out, like overwhelmed the, the parenting around that age is just so labor intensive. Um, that by the time people get to the end of the day, they’re so exhausted. And at, you know, during that time, it feels like the, the, um, you know, nurturing your children, it can be so intimate, especially like, I would say, birth to like. Three or four when they’re sort of on you all the time and you’re holding them and you’re comforting them, especially if you’re breastfeeding, definitely like in the baby years.

[00:03:35] And so a lot of times that touched out, hearing that touched out, it actually points to the intimacy needs are already getting met. And so I think that can really be a barrier, especially for primary parents. And that’s often mom. Um. It can really be like their, I I’m good. Like the kids are really cute.

[00:03:56] The kids are really lovable. The kids are on you all the time, and it’s both overwhelming and deeply satisfying. And so then at the end of the day, you know the partner who’s like hairy and smelly and like, not as cute, they don’t have much to offer. You know, really like nothing that would compete with like quiet time in bed by yourself or like Netflix.

[00:04:22] Randi Rubenstein: Yeah. Yeah. No, I remember. And especially when you’re, when you’re breastfeeding, like you’ve just, yeah. Touched out. That’s such a good term.

[00:04:34] I’ve never heard that. And it says so much. It’s so what, how, what, what are you typically. How do you coach those parents through that touched out phase or stage of the relationship?

[00:04:53] Dr. Rebecca Eudy: Well. It’s important to decide together what, what it is that’s, IM, that’s important. So for instance, you know, the, the kids, they are, they can be all consuming if you let them. And in fact, actually you don’t even have to let them. They just are. And so you have to sort of decide together to be able to set aside time to do things that you only do together.

[00:05:16] Sex being a big one of these things. And. While there might be times and long periods of time where it feels like those intimacy needs are being met by the children, if that goes on long term, what can happen is that the relationship sort of erodes and re resentment can build up and then it can be problematic long term because you’re not connected in the way that you used to and a in a monogamous relationship, you’re only being sexual with each other. So maintaining that spark and that connection, even at times when it feels really hard to get to the place where you really want to let alone feeling any sort of like actual, like arousal or spontaneous desire. Um, you know, it really can be a challenge. And I know we’re gonna talk about that today, um, that, that feeling of like, ah, how do I even get into the place where this doesn’t feel like a chore?

[00:06:07] Because I think that that is, it’s not, it’s not a fun place to be in. I mean, it’s not fun for anyone. Um.

[00:06:14] Randi Rubenstein: Mm-hmm.

[00:06:15] Dr. Rebecca Eudy: Yeah, it just doesn’t feel good. 

[00:06:17] Randi Rubenstein: do you see it? I mean, I’m assuming you see it much more with women than with men. Do. Do men ever feel like sex is a chore?

[00:06:28] Dr. Rebecca Eudy: Yeah, I

[00:06:29] Randi Rubenstein: I mean, I guess ever is a, of course, but like, I mean, what’s the percentage do, if you had to guess of women who come and feel like sex has become a chore versus men who think of sex as a chore.

[00:06:46] Dr. Rebecca Eudy: So I don’t hear men talking as much about sex being a chore in the same way that women do. I think that the mental load for women makes it so that sex can be just one more thing on their to-do list, which then makes it a chore, makes it feel like they’re taking care of someone else’s needs as opposed to satisfying their own needs. But. You know what the research shows is that there is a difference in sex drive between men and women, which largely is based in testosterone. Men have more testosterone, obviously, which leads to more spontaneous desire, and so that it is more common that men in general have a higher sex drive, but it’s not as much as you’d think.

[00:07:25] There’s plenty of couples that I work with where the man is the lower desire partner. And a lot of times what can happen is, you know, they’re not necessarily talking about it as sex being a chore, but sometimes what can happen is that there’s performance anxiety. So it feels like they have to show up in a certain way, which can then get really overwhelming and make the desire go down.

[00:07:49] Randi Rubenstein: Yeah, so interesting. There’s so, there’s so much. I, it seems like there’s so much in the mind that gets in the way of the body. Um, yeah.

[00:08:03] Dr. Rebecca Eudy: I mean the, the mind, I didn’t make this up, someone else. Much smarter than me said this for the first time, and I can’t remember now who it was, but the mind is the largest erotic organ. Like, it, it, it is. That’s where, you know, the sex is really, you know, a little bit of friction, a little bit of lubrication.

[00:08:21] The mechanics of sex are not that complicated, but where fantasy and desire and all of the exciting parts, orgasm, all of that, a lot of that happens in the mind. And so if. Your mind is preoccupied with your to-do list or worried about performance or you know, any other sort of stressful things that can dis detract out of the moment. It really can have a big impact on how enjoyable sex is to the point where really sensation, the friction and the lubrication, it can feel neutral or even bad if your mind is not engaged.

[00:08:58] Randi Rubenstein: Mm-hmm. And if you’re touched out. Then feeling like, ugh, it’s been, you know, however long and it’s been a week, or it’s been, I mean, I’ve had women who’ve told me that their husband. Expects sex like every other day, or, and I’m like, that’s a lot. You’re, I’m like, you’re raising kids. Like, that’s a lot. And um, and I was like, I was like, how, how?

[00:09:34] When are you finding the time. How do you make the time? I’m kind of cur, you know, like I, I have to stop myself from asking all the logistics. ’cause I’m like, are you like, are you doing it in the closet? Are you locking the door? Do your kids know you’re having Like, I was like, ’cause you know, I always kind of wanted to be stealth about it. I didn’t wanna creep anyone out, um, in the middle of the night. Like, when’s it happening? Are you, are you jumping up and brushing your teeth? Are you, you know, like I get, I’m like, how is this, how does this work? Um, I digress, but I just, you know, if you’re. If you’re feeling like, oh gosh, I need to just do it.

[00:10:13] I mean, there’s so much that’s going on in your mind, how, like how would you work with someone that is like, they just can’t relax? They’re not even associating sex with pleasure. I mean, a lot of women have confided in me that they don’t have orgasm. During sex, um, they’re not associating sex with pleasure. Um, it really is sort of a performative act and, you know, where do you go with someone who comes into your office with that issue?

[00:10:50] Dr. Rebecca Eudy: Yeah, so there’s so much there. So first of all, I wanna say that it’s if, um. you’re approaching, there’s, there’s a lot of different reasons to have sex, and one of them you mentioned, which is an ara, uh, like at a relational reason. So you, it’s been a little while. You don’t really feel like it, but you know that it’ll be, you know, pleasurable once you’re there. And it’ll be good for the, your relationship, you know, it’s like a really nice connector that’s willingness. That’s openness and if it’s pleasurable once you get there, there’s nothing wrong with starting from a place of willingness.

[00:11:27] So if people are listening and they’re like, oh gosh, I do that all the time, but like, it’s okay. It’s, it’s good when we do it. And, but I’d never really wanna do that. That’s a separate, like that, that’s a separate set of, um, of conversations around like, just permission structure for that. Um, not having that spontaneous desire, but that’s not what you asked. So I just wanna normalize that, that, that it’s not always bad to have sex because your partner wants it and you care about your partner and you know what’s gonna be fine once you do it. That’s not necessarily a bad thing.

[00:12:05] However, sex is not pleasurable, then why would you want to have it? It’s common sense to not want bad sex. Nobody wants bad sex, and so if you have a partner who expects sex, that is a conversation that I would wanna have that couple in with me so that we can talk about entitlement around sex, because entitlement kills desire. There is no like that. That is. Entitlement kills desire.

[00:12:33] And a lot of times the partner who is the higher desire partner is not doing this on purpose. Um, you know, they’re not, they’re also not really wanting the kind of sex that their partner’s giving them just because. Like they ask for it. You know, that like obligation sex is not all that satisfying for anybody. So, but they may not realize that their entitlement is leading to a situation where their partner really is not able to come with any of their own desire or have sex for themselves and for their own pleasure.

[00:13:08] And you know, you said that a lot of women have confided in you that they don’t orgasm during intercourse. Well. What the research shows us is actually 95% of women need clitoral stimulation in order to orgasm. And some women are able to find this during intercourse, but a lot of women are not. And so they’re not orgasming during penetrative sex. And you know, they, their partner may be aware of this or they may not be. Um, but that is totally normal, like the way that we have sex, um, meaning intercourse is not really optimized for female pleasure.

[00:13:50] Randi Rubenstein: Wow. So would you say 95% of women are not having orgasm during sex, or they just learn how to work with their body so that they are, yeah. 

[00:14:04] Dr. Rebecca Eudy: Yeah. Yeah. So, you know, there’s positions that women, like, you know, for instance, a lot of times being on top that allows friction on the clitoris during intercourse. So there’s positions that work for women so that they’re, they get enough. Clitoral stimulation that they’re able to orgasm during intercourse.

[00:14:25] But I work with many women who actually, you know, intercourse can feel really nice. It can feel like a really connecting experience, or it can kind of feel like neutral. It doesn’t feel bad as long as there’s not actual pain with sex. But, um. A lot of women are not actually orgasming at all, like they need manual clitoral, or like if their partner is giving them oral sex or something like that, then they can orgasm.

[00:14:51] But a lot of times, if we’re being really realistic, for a lot of women, they may want to orgasm before intercourse or they may wanna orgasm after intercourse. It doesn’t necessarily have to happen at the same time. And for a lot of women, it’s not realistic for that to be the way that they orgasm.

[00:15:07] Randi Rubenstein: Mm-hmm. Yeah. That’s so interesting. Wow. Um, and so you have a new book. Parents In Love, A Guide to Great Sex After Kids. And I’d love to know, um, yeah, what made you write this book?

[00:15:26] Dr. Rebecca Eudy: Well, it actually came outta my clinical experience, so I work with a lot of couples and most of the couples that I work with are, you know, have young kids, and I just kept seeing the same things over and over again. Come into my office and mostly what I see is a desire difference. So, you know, the thing, there’s been so much research on this and it tells us that desire difference in long-term relationships, not just kids, right, but kids make it worse. Um, but a desire difference in long-term relationships is more the norm. Like it would be, it’s very rare that a couple would be in a long-term relationship and wouldn’t have a difference in desire. And so it’s not actually the high or the low desire that’s an issue because couples who are well aligned, whether they’re having sex, you know, three times a day, three times a week, three times a year, if they’re aligned and there’s no tension between them, then there’s no issue. Even in a marriage that doesn’t involve sex at all, that wouldn’t be an issue if it, unless it was an issue for one of the people.

[00:16:33] So it’s not actually, you know, I don’t even like using the term low desire partner because I think it sort of stigmatizes that low desire partner who usually all like already is feeling like they’re the problem, like they’re broken, or that they can’t live up to what their partner wants. And so it’s really only a lower desire partner or a higher desire partner. One is not better or worse, but it’s really working with the difference between them.

[00:17:01] Randi Rubenstein: Hmm. And, and so when let, I mean, can you give us sort of a sample scenario? Um, a couple comes in, they’ve got kids, maybe they’re past the little kids. Stages. Their kids are now seven and 10 and they come in and yeah, just kind of like set the table on that. 

[00:17:28] Dr. Rebecca Eudy: Yeah. 

[00:17:28] Randi Rubenstein: I’d love to Yeah. Hear 

[00:17:30] Dr. Rebecca Eudy: Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. So usually by the time that a couple gets to me and their kids are around seven and 10, generally by the time someone gets to me, the desire difference has been going on for a while. They’re probably pretty frustrated. So by the time they get to me, a couple and sex therapists and are actually willing to talk about this. There, there’s a lot of resentment built up between them. There’s a lot of misunderstanding. So the first thing that I do is we talk about how sex is not a human, right? Nobody ever died from lack of sex. Like this is not something that anybody’s owed in a relationship. And if you feel like you’re owed sex in a relationship. Your partner is gonna start to have less and less desire.

[00:18:13] So the first, yeah, like it’s, it is essential. So the first thing we have to do is to take the pressure off having sex. This can be challenging, like you definitely need buy-in because the thing is, is that the higher desire partner has probably tried everything. You know, they’re like initiating in all of these creative ways. They’re trying to set the stage. You know, their partner may have told them, you know, a lot of times what happens is that one person is wanting more sex and then the other person outside the bedroom is wanting more support. Whether it’s emotional support or whether it’s help, I’m sure you hear this from people all the time. It’s like loading the dishwasher’s, foreplay.

[00:18:54] Like, let’s be real. We all have kids. That is absolutely true. Um, and so we, you know, breaking down what’s actually going on, like what is actually preventing them from getting into the position where they’re able to have sex and good sex together. And so basically these, this usually falls into two scenarios.

[00:19:20] One, when they have sex, it’s really good, but they just don’t have it enough and maybe one person wants to have it more, and one person is like, I mean, it’s really good when we do it, but I just never wanna, I never wanna do it. So that is an initiation problem. That’s like a, how do we find time? How do we support that? What do you need as a run up? Like that’s a conversation all about responsive versus spontaneous desire and how to facilitate getting into the situation where the good sex happens more often. So that’s one scenario for the couple.

[00:20:00] And then the other one that I see a lot is that the sex is not enjoyable for one or both of them. That’s a conversation that has to start first with pleasure. So you don’t want to have sex, you don’t wanna have bad sex. We call that common sense. Of course you don’t. And so in order for you to wanna have sex, it has to be pleasurable. And that doesn’t mean that you have to, or you know, if it doesn’t mean that both partners need to orgasm at the same time. It doesn’t mean that they have to orgasm in the same sexual experience. Everybody’s sort of, um, needs to be able to say like it, but it needs to be possible. Orgasm has to be possible at least part of the time, really in order for, I think I think sex to be pleasurable.

[00:20:51] Randi Rubenstein: I agree and I think. You know, the, I’m really trying to hold back ’cause my daughter, my daughter, my daughter hosts this podcast quite often with me. And so I’m like, you know, there’s just certain things you don’t wanna imagine and that is your parents having sex. Um, I don’t wanna imagine my kids having sex. Like we all know it’s happening and that’s just a topic that like we, our, my brain doesn’t need to go there.

[00:21:19] Um, so. So I’m trying to like, you know, be careful with what I share so it doesn’t cringe her out if she accidentally ever hears it. Um, I guess there’s so much about women and pleasure and orgasm that is about relaxing the mind and being able to relax your body. Um. Be be, you know, like this whole idea of embodiment and, and I was a person who numbed my body for a really long time and 10 years of yoga. What I realize now is I’m not, I’m not, I switched to Pilates in January, but after doing 10 years of yoga, I just kind of got bored with it.

[00:22:08] And I was like, oh, I think it was like somatic therapy for me. It t it taught me how to become embodied and to like. Relax my mind and, and focus on sensations that were going on in my body. And I was not skillful at that. Like I really had to practice. And so let’s just say if you’re like, okay, it’s been however much time. I know he wants it. I know I’ll be, we will. I know it’ll be good if we’ll feel more connected, you know, for what I’m, I’m gonna do it.

[00:22:46] Fine. I’m just gonna do it. And then she’s, but in her mind, maybe she’s like, Ugh, I know I’m like 10 pounds heavier than I wanna be. I, um, you know, maybe she’s got some body stuff that’s gunky in her mind and looping in her mind. Maybe she just heard her kids wouldn’t go to bed. She listens to podcasts like this and she’s really trying to be a more conscious parent and a mastermind parent, and God forbid, a gentle parent.

[00:23:21] Um, I have a whole lot of, a lot of things I have to say about that, but you know, she’s really trying to be a different kind of parent than she had. She, um. And then she hears her husband screaming his head off at the kids or shaming and blaming, and he’s trying to be helpful. He’s trying to get them to bed and she’s thinking, great, you just undid all the work that I’ve been working my ass off all day to do.

[00:23:50] So she’s got all this looping and she’s annoyed with him, but she also knows that like. You know, it’s the night so she’s not gonna harp on him, and then all of a sudden she’s supposed to relax her mind and, you know, and, and she’s dealing with all of this. And so, I mean, it, it sort of feels like orgasm might be a million miles away when you, this is your reality, and I think this is all too common.

[00:24:20] Dr. Rebecca Eudy: Yeah, I think you’re right about that. You, you just named like all of these very. Real, like I, I, that’s relatable, very relatable. All of these real breaks, like tho those all put the breaks on sexual desire under that circumstance, it, you know, it would be really difficult to even get to the place of willingness of wanting to be sexual with your partner.

[00:24:47] Randi Rubenstein: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. It’s like, like, let’s at least normalize it so that maybe step one is, I don’t know, you wrote a whole book on it. Tell me what step one is. I’m thinking step one is, is let’s at least desham it. Um, because if it’s like, oh, but of course, but of course you’re feeling like this, but of course you can’t. Who could relax their body With all of this going on in the background, there’s nothing wrong with you.

[00:25:16] Dr. Rebecca Eudy: You’re absolutely right. I mean, destigmatizing, deshaming is so essential because that nobody is gonna feel sexy if they feel broken, if they feel like there’s something wrong with them. That is not sexy. So that is, you know, that’s definitely step one. Like this is not a low desire partner problem. That picture that you just painted, there’s a lot of relational stuff going on there that is gonna stop that person from being able to be, if she’s, if that person is having sex with her partner that night, they are having obligation sex, that is gonna kill desire for next time. They’re gonna go, oh, thank God that’s over. Now I don’t have to, you know, they’re gonna leave me alone for two weeks. Or whatever, you know, I’m not gonna have to do that again for a while.

[00:26:06] That kind of sex is gonna really like that sets up a bad cycle. So, but what I think a lot of people, and these are people you know, I see these people that come into my office, they’ve been caught in that cycle for a while because it’s really tricky. So do you say, Hey, you just screamed at the kids. We had a rough day. I don’t feel connected to you at all. The last thing I wanna do is have sex with you and deal with the relational fallout. Or do you just have sex and at least one of you is sort of happy?

[00:26:38] So it’s a catch 22. Like I see that this is a tough situation that people find themselves in. What I can tell you is how I would work with that person if they came into my office and what the book can, you know, if you have willingness for both people to be, to change a little bit, to adapt, to connect with each other, then this is definitely workable.

[00:27:05] Randi Rubenstein: It’s interesting. My, my husband, I remember years ago, um, I was like launching a program or doing a thing and um, and we were just hearing a lot, a lot of women were like, oh, I really wanna sign up, but my husband, you know, he’s not, he’s like, really wanna pay to do a parenting. Like, huh. Like, and so, um, and I was, and I, I was venting to my husband about it and I was like, what is wrong with this whole situation.

[00:27:36] And um, and of course I, I typically go to the man hating part, like, what’s wrong with, I’m like, I’m like, it’s just they’re morons. I don’t understand. And he’s like, he’s like, somebody just needs to tell him you’re gonna have a lot more sex if you get on the same parenting page. Like, and I was like, oh, I think I’ll lead with that in my marketing copy.

[00:27:59] Dr. Rebecca Eudy: Did it 

[00:28:00] Randi Rubenstein: like. Probably get a lot more buy-in in your programs if like, if these dudes realized, oh, guess what? Join your partner. Learn some new things. Actually feel happier at home. Stop screaming at your kids. Have happier kids. You’re gonna be having a lot more sex. He’s like. It’s kind of currency.

[00:28:23] And um, and so we joked about it for a long time. ‘Cause I was like, yeah, that, that would be effective marketing copy. But I’m not, I’m not going there. But, you know, I mean, that’s the truth is, is like, you know, unloading the dishwasher. How about, I mean, the sexiest moment I remember for me with my husband was when I heard him in the other room with a little kid, a little kid that was still needing help getting into their PJs and I heard him saying, you wanna use your right foot or your left foot? Like he was giving two positive choices. I had never specifically taught him that.

[00:29:02] And I remember he came back and I was like. I was like, you’re cute. And he’s like, he was like, what did I do? What is this? What is all this about? And I’m like, you wanna use your right foot or your left foot? Like really? I was like, how do you know two positive choices? And he’s like, because I heard you do it. And it works. They, I mean like, I’m a solutions guy. I heard it working, so I’m gonna use it.

[00:29:32] And I was like. Like it made me, I was like, okay, I’m not in this. I mean, it was so much more than that. It was, I’m not here by myself. He’s open to learning. Um, we’re doing it differently. We’re not just yelling at kids to make them do things like this. Now this feels like a team. Um, and so there was something about that moment that just felt so connecting to me.

[00:29:57] Dr. Rebecca Eudy: Yeah, I think you’re really putting your finger on something that, um, most people want is to feel like a team and to feel connected. You know, one of the things that I, um, you know, it’s a generalization, but women tend to be taught, um, how to be emotionally connected. Girls and women we’re coached to take care of other people’s emotions. We’re coached to, um, talk about our feelings to take care of, to take care of other people. And so we, when we wanna connect, one of the ways that we feel the most connected and that we have the language to ask for connection is through emotional interaction. And men and boys don’t. haven’t gotten that coaching. And so men and boys, a lot of times I see men who feel like they need sex, like they need air or water. It’s like when they’re deprived of sex, it’s so painful. it’s not just because they’re horny,

[00:31:07] Randi Rubenstein: Mm-hmm.

[00:31:08] Dr. Rebecca Eudy: You know? Like if it just is about the orgasm, then they masturbate,

[00:31:11] Randi Rubenstein: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

[00:31:13] Dr. Rebecca Eudy: anyway. But it’s about the connection. So when one person only wants to connect sexually and they don’t have the capacity to connect emotionally, and one person is really preferring to connect emotionally and they don’t have the ways to ask for what they want sexually, then you have a miss, an A, an unbalance there.

[00:31:41] And so what. I try to do with couples is help them to find the tools and find the words to connect in different ways as well, and that does bring desire back a little bit more into balance. It doesn’t necessarily mean that you’re gonna have the same desire. Some people have higher or lower libidos just naturally, but if you’re limited to only connecting in one way, then you’re limited.

[00:32:11] Randi Rubenstein: Yeah, that’s such a good point. If men are only used to getting their emotional needs met and their, and with that physical closeness and the act. Of course they’re gonna want it so much because it’s like we crave touch, we crave, I mean, we’re pack animals, right? So we, we crave that connection.

[00:32:39] And, and so it seems like if outside of the bedroom, you’re, you’re learning how to talk about deeper parts of you, right? Um, maybe even hidden parts of you. Um, and, and, and stretching your vulnerability, right. Trusting each other more. It seems like that would be foreplay for the bedroom for both, you know, it would in terms of maybe one partner, it may, it it feeds their desire, and the other partner maybe is now not so sex crazed because they’re also getting some emotional needs met outside of the bedroom.

[00:33:24] Dr. Rebecca Eudy: Mm-hmm. Absolute. And I love the, the experience that you shared where you heard your husband doing this thing that you’re like, oh, oh my gosh. Like this guy,

[00:33:38] Randi Rubenstein: Mm-hmm.

[00:33:39] Dr. Rebecca Eudy: like we are on the same team. You know, I, I think that that is such a powerful attraction force when you see your partner, you know, maybe you see your partner at a, at a social gathering and they’re talking to somebody and they look like so competent or, um, attractive.

[00:33:58] You know, there’s something about the, the doldrums of, you know, this, this life of the carpools and the scheduling and, you know. Nobody’s closing the bathroom door. It’s like inherently not very sexy and very close, like so intimate. We see each other’s like really not so pretty bits.

[00:34:24] Randi Rubenstein: Mm-hmm.

[00:34:25] Dr. Rebecca Eudy: And so to be able to see the magnificence of your partner, even if it’s just a moment where it’s like, do you want use your left foot or your right foot to be able to see and recognize, oh wow. Like that’s such, those are such powerful moments.

[00:34:41] Randi Rubenstein: Mm-hmm. Yeah. And like he’s, he’s joining me, right? Instead of fighting against me. ’cause I hear it all the time where mom’s learning some new things. And dad is doing what human beings do, which is no, we must do what I am familiar with, and that is the way I was conditioned. No one’s saying it like that, but he’s like, why?

[00:35:06] Why does this make sense? Why aren’t you holding? He needs to be punished for that. I don’t understand. Why are you letting him walk all So, so quite often, dad is challenging. She’s working her butt off to learn all these things. Secretly, she’s like, I’m a cycle breaker. I’m gonna do it differently. I’m gonna create the family that I never had.

[00:35:25] Nobody’s really saying that specifically, but a lot of people are feeling it. And then when he’s challenging every single tactic, it’s super unsexy.

[00:35:37] Dr. Rebecca Eudy: Mm-hmm.

[00:35:38] So unsexy. 

[00:35:39] Randi Rubenstein: It’s so unsexy. And so when he all of a sudden starts to join her, and he’s even just trying, you know, I mean, I had a mom recently who said he took the kids up for bath time, which he does a lot, but when she went up, there was some shenanigans going on and that’s when normally dad would lose it and start yelling and, and he actually turned to her and he said like, I don’t know what to do here.

[00:36:09] I know, and she didn’t have to know what to do, but he turned to her and basically was like, I don’t know what to do here. And she’s like, I got you. You know what? Let me take over. And they were tag teaming and now all of a sudden it’s like, yeah, it’s like a soccer team. It’s like, oh, it need to go sit out for a quarter, can you take over my position? Um, and you know, that was such progress to her because at least he wasn’t fighting her and now he was wanting to join her and he didn’t need to know what to do yet. She was like, I got you.

[00:36:43] Dr. Rebecca Eudy: I mean, I think we all are victims of our own conditioning, and so for those of us who are challenging that conditioning and our partner is not joining us there, it can be so frustrating and absolutely, you’re right, unsexy. I think it’s one of the reasons why it’s so, this is why I work with couples, by the way. Like I do have a lot of people who come to me, a lot of women who come to me and say, I have low desire, like fix me. And I always encourage them, like, let’s see if we can get your partner in. ’cause this is a relational thing because moms, I mean, we are working so hard, like moms are working so hard and so are dads, right? Like everybody’s working hard and

[00:37:23] Randi Rubenstein: no. Moms are working harder. Moms are working.

[00:37:29] Dr. Rebecca Eudy: I think it’s important to get that buy-in. So the thing is, is that entitlement kills desire, but in order for the person who is the higher desire partner to feel safe. Stepping out of that role and taking the pressure off. They also have to believe that their partner is gonna join them there. That they’re going to decide together that this is something that’s a priority that’s worth protecting, that’s worth working on together. And so you have to get the buy-in of like this, you know, like your husband saying like, Hey. Support your wife in this coaching program, you’ll have more sex.

[00:38:11] Like if you can manage to get on the same team of like, oh, we both wanna be more connected. We both wanna have better sex. We both wanna parent our children in ways that we feel effective and, um, like like we feel good about. So sometimes it’s just sort of that, that buy-in, I think in the beginning is really, really important. Um, because otherwise it’s, it’s hard to change a system as one person. It’s possible, but it’s hard.

[00:38:45] Randi Rubenstein: Yeah, no, I think it’s great that you work with. With both people. I mean, in a perfect world I would too. Um, I think there’s probably more currency when it comes to sex. It’s probably easier for you to get the men into the office than it is for me. Um, but yeah, I mean, that is ideal.

[00:39:08] Um, I, I just shifting gears for a second. I want, I’ve been kind of obsessed with learning about and talking about attachment. If you. Before we wrap up, you know, I know that I, I heard you mention something about how attachment injuries are often playing in here. Um, if there’s anything that Yeah. You could share about that, I think I would love to hear it.

[00:39:37] Dr. Rebecca Eudy: Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. That’s a really big way, you know, it’s a, it’s a really big part of the book, and it’s a really big way that I work with couples. So I am certified in emotionally focused therapy, which is an attachment based method. And so essentially what the basis of that is, is that. We want to create secure attachment with our partner.

[00:40:02] And so what that looks, what that feels like is like being on the same team. It feels like this person’s got my back. They get me, they know me. I can be vulnerable with them because a lot of times we have these vulnerable fears and longings and we cover them up, you know, we cover them up. Quickly and without even knowing it, with these protection behaviors, and a lot of times those look like, um, blame criticism, stonewalling, withdraw. So when those protection behaviors get layered on top of these vulnerable fears and longings, like, I’m not good enough. I’m not doing it well enough. Nobody, I’m, I’m unseen. I’m unvalidated, I’m not important. Those are some like examples of those underneath fears of longing. I’m not lovable enough.

[00:40:56] Randi Rubenstein: People pleasing. I, I have to do what makes the other person happy. I’m not even thinking about my own needs or desires or sensations. It’s just all about the other person. Yeah. All of that.

[00:41:09] Dr. Rebecca Eudy: Yeah. I mean that’s a great example of a protective behavior that people do all the time and. This really can show up in all different areas of our lives, but especially with our intimate partners because you know, our first attachment partners are our parents. And for those of, even for those of us who were lucky enough to have secure attachment with our parents. It doesn’t necessarily guarantee that you have a securely attached relationship. There’s lots of things that can cause attachment injury, and one of the things that can cause attachment injury is actually having a, having a child. And so when you have a child and you attach to that child, you know, that’s sort of our primary attachment bond.

[00:41:57] It’s so primal and. It can, for some people, it can really feel like, especially in the early years, that the attachment between the baby and the primary parent, which is, you know, usually the mom but not always, um, can really overshadow the couple. Attachment relationship and there can be a lot of resentment and jealousy.

[00:42:21] There can be a lot of feelings of being left out. And so that’s when this thing of like mom says, I’m touched out. Get away from me and dad or other, you know, non-primary partner, parenting partner is like, ah, I miss you. Where are you at? I’ve been alone all day. I’m touch starved. I, I need you. And that can set up this really sort of difficult, um. Interaction between them because no one’s wrong, but it can really act like an attachment injury, and if it’s not addressed, then it can cause a lot of resentment buildup over time.

[00:43:00] Randi Rubenstein: I think, I definitely think we played out that dynamic. Um, yeah, I was all, I had just. A hundred percent tunnel vision for my kids, my babies. My husband was such a second class citizen. Um, I was, yeah, because I came in with like crazy insecure attachment and I didn’t even know what that, you know, and I was just, you know, 

[00:43:32] Dr. Rebecca Eudy: Well, you’re just doing the best you can.

[00:43:33] Randi Rubenstein: Yeah. 

[00:43:34] Dr. Rebecca Eudy: You’re just doing the best you can. And I think one of the things that I see a lot for moms is that they really want things done right. There’s a lot of guilt, there’s a lot of shame, there’s a lot of worry,

[00:43:46] um, that, you know, early on it might be about the safety and the health of their, of their children. Um, that things need to be done a certain way. The bottles need to be washed a certain way or you know, the clothes or whatever. Um, but then over time that can really just carry through. And the kids can get really attached to that primary parent. And so then when dad or, um, you know, the other parent tries to come in and help, it’s like they’re screaming at bedtime and mom’s just like, all right, you know what?

[00:44:16] I’m just gonna do it. And then they end up feeling really overloaded and like there’s no help for them. But also we can’t have it both ways. We can’t have everything exactly the way that we want it and also have help.

[00:44:32] Randi Rubenstein: Mm-hmm.

[00:44:33] Dr. Rebecca Eudy: That can be a really tricky place that I see a lot of, particularly moms get stuck where they really want help, but also they want their partner to do it exactly the way they say, and so they’re micromanaging and that even if they’re getting help, they still are carrying the mental load. And a lot of that does come down to attachment.

[00:44:54] Randi Rubenstein: Yeah. Yeah. I, I, it makes so much sense to me. I know, I, I coach moms a lot, um, not to parent. husbands or tell their husbands how to parent. Even the, even when they’re like those resistant husbands that are just like, frankly doing it wrong. Um, um, but I’m like, it’s, you know, it’s super unsexy. To parent your partner.

[00:45:23] Like, think about it like, like ick, like nobody wants to have sex with their mom or with their dad. Like, it’s like the, it is like what I said about my daughter listening. Like, no, we don’t even, no. Um, and I’m like, they get to have their own relationship with their kids ’cause they’re their kids too. And, um, and you just put blinders on and keep, stay the course and just model the behavior that you hope, you know.

[00:45:52] Your kids are gonna respond to, it’s gonna be the thing, the norm. And he’ll come, he’ll come along, he’ll come along, but don’t parent him. And so then I’ve had moms, especially moms who come to me who have, you know, been under the learnings of gentle parenting for a long time, and now they’re. You know, but have a lot of people pleasing attachment.

[00:46:14] They have attachment wounds. I can tell there’s a lot of people pleasing. The gentle parenting sounded amazing ’cause they got to be camp counselor, mommy and all about, you know, and so they didn’t realize that there was boundaries and consequences and, and rules and all those things. And so they come. And they’re sort of learning this, this, you know, I call it pack leadership.

[00:46:36] It’s firm and loving. And, um, and they’re learning this new way. And they’re so, sometimes, so then their partner will start to have buy-in in their own way. Like the dad the other night is like, I don’t know what to do. Or he’ll say something that is not the way we would necessarily say it, but it’s not.

[00:47:00] It’s not shaming and blaming, it’s knock it off, you know? It’s something like that, and I’m like, it’s fine. We don’t need to pick apart any like, like what was his intention? What was his energy? The majority, there’s like a really high percentage of communication that’s nonverbal. We do not need to pick other people apart.

[00:47:22] It doesn’t feel good for anyone. And I think when we start to like meet each other where we are and, and really work as. A cohesive team as a pack, um, and we’re trying to figure out our rhythm and our groove. Um, it ends up. All of a sudden, I do think more desire comes in and more alignment comes in and you, I don’t know, I, to me it has felt like that, has, that has been one of the main ways I’ve healed my own attachment wound has been through this, this pack, this cohesive team that me and my husband have.

[00:48:09] You know, have been the leaders of, um, like, I think, and, and I think we both kind of came to the table with insecure attachment. So I guess it’s just anyone who’s learned anything about attachment or is like, oh shit, I think I might be insecure. Attachment. What does that mean? Does that mean my kids are gonna be insecure at Attach?

[00:48:26] I just am here to say me too. And I think these conversations and this work has actually helped me to heal a lot of that insecure attachment. And I would say the same for my husband.

[00:48:39] Dr. Rebecca Eudy: Yeah, there’s some really interesting research that I read. I, I read this and then I haven’t been able to find it again, or else I would share it with you. Um, but that. So regardless of what your attachment was in childhood, the insight into your attachment. So if you are a person who came into this, you know, through your family of origin, insecure attachment, or avoid an attachment, you. If you have insight, high levels of insight into what your own attachment style is, which usually means you’ve done some independent work on this, you actually are set up to have a more secure attachment with your children. Because you’re aware of it. You’re aware of where those pitfalls are and you’re doing the work.

[00:49:26] So you know, we can’t control the attachment in our family of origin. Some of that’s temperament, some of that’s our own parents’ capacity to parent us. But what we can work to control is that pack that you’re talking about where there is a secure attachment where it really feels like we have each other’s backs in our intimate relationships, which is. Our primary attachment in adulthood, and through doing that, we can help our kids to have to form a secure attachment with us, which really just has to be good enough. We don’t have to be perfect in order to do that. You know, it’s not, it’s not, we’re not going for perfection here. We’re just going for good enough, enough of the time. So it’s definitely not, you know, this, these wounds can absolutely be healed. But I’ll tell you, when they get triggered in our intimate relationships, oh man, does it feel bad? So, 

[00:50:20] Randi Rubenstein: I’m so glad a lot that, that you’re tackling this in a lot of the book. Um, and as far as like, like who, tell me if you had to say, like, when you wrote this book, who were you hoping that this book was gonna, that who were you hoping was gonna read this book and was this book really meant to help? I’d love to leave the audience with that.

[00:50:44] Dr. Rebecca Eudy: Yeah, absolutely. So I think that this book is for any couple who’s struggled with a difference in desire. Who has struggled maybe to find their desire or to feel desired in their relationship. This book, um, really goes into both the emotional cycles of disconnection as well as the sexual cycles of disconnection, both of which have an attached attachment basis.

[00:51:09] And it also goes into our nervous system regulation, which is really like sort of the central part that that’s the mechanics of our attachment. So like that, that it’s like if attachment is a garden, our nervous system is like the irrigation system for this garden.

[00:51:30] And so also, if you’re feeling overwhelmed, if you’re feeling shut down, if you’re feeling, um, you know, fight or flight all the time, there’s a lot in there for, for this, for you as well. And specifically as it, um, relates to desire and sex.

[00:51:50] Randi Rubenstein: So good. I mean, I don’t know. I don’t know a couple that isn’t affected by sex. Not having enough of it, somebody wanting too much. I mean really like at some point in the relationship. So I think, I’m glad that you wrote it. Thank you for writing it. I think this book’s gonna help a lot of people, a lot of couples.

[00:52:15] Dr. Rebecca Eudy: I hope.

[00:52:17] Randi Rubenstein: Yeah. Thanks so much. Thanks so much for being here. Thanks everyone for listening. Bye for now. 

[00:52:23] Thanks for listening today, guys. I hope you picked up some tips, tools, maybe some baby steps for creating more balance and boundaries in your life. And I just wanted to let you know, if you want to continue moving the needle forward in creating this for yourself, having a happier household, I want you to go to my website and check out mastermindparenting.com. We have three beginning programs, and if you need some accountability and more support then please look for the one that would be a good fit for you.

[00:52:57] And, as always, we’re on all the social channels under Mastermind Parenting, on Instagram it’s mastermind_parenting. And, you know, periodically I do pop up on different Instagram lives, Facebook lives where I give you teaching and coaching and I love engaging with you live to help you help your strong-willed kids so that they can feel better, because when they feel better they do better, and I love, love, love getting to know you guys. 

[00:53:30] So thanks for listening. If you like this podcast, please don’t forget to subscribe, rate and review. Super, super appreciative.