335: When Your Kid Is Heading Down A Dark Path (with Lisa Katona Smith)

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[00:00:04] Lisa Katona Smith: It’s really comfortable and hopeful as a parent to think that my child will make the right choices. But even if they do, they will be faced with those choices at some point. So it’s better to be educated and armed with the conversations so that you can help them navigate this journey.

[00:00:28] Narrator: When Lisa Katona Smith’s son struggled with addiction, the traditional advice for families left her feeling helpless, guilty, and alone.

[00:00:35] Lisa Katona Smith: Creating family dynamics so that the whole family is integrated into curiosity. Honest curiosity, not snooping curiosity, but honest curiosity, like being able to ask the hard questions 

[00:00:48] Narrator: She channeled her personal challenges and her experience as an educator into Parallel Recovery, an approach that empowers families, encourages real connection and supports lasting recovery.

[00:00:58] Lisa Katona Smith: There’s a whole lot of people doing this on their own and barely treading water, and they need some help and they need some tools and they need some support and they need some compassion and some validation and I can provide that.

[00:01:12] Randi Rubenstein: My name is Randi Rubenstein, and welcome to the Mastermind Parenting Podcast. At Mastermind Parenting, we’re on a mission to support strong-willed kids and the families that love them. 

[00:01:23] Hi everyone. Today we’re talking about a topic that is near and dear to my child rebellion heart. Teenage, really teenage me. And it’s about supporting our kids as they navigate the years involving potential drugs and alcohol. And, I’m really excited that I have Lisa Keona Smith we’re gonna have a meaty conversation. Before we started recording, Lisa said let’s go in deep. I, she’s just like me, like surface level scripts. They don’t work. You won’t remember ’em. So we’re gonna have, a meaty conversation and I am so excited to have you here on the podcast and to meet you.

[00:02:10] Lisa Katona Smith: Likewise. Thank you, Randi.

[00:02:13] Randi Rubenstein: Okay, so we’re talking about this scary topic that no one wants to think about. And then they get to the teenage years and, drugs, alcohol, risky behavior, it’s, a part of it. It’s a part of it. Whether you’re, whether you have the child that decides to not partake or participate, then they have, I I had all the different situations with my three kids.

[00:02:47] but even the kid who makes the choices not to participate, well then they get left out and they’re, and they don’t feel like they belong and they don’t understand why they’re, so it’s just, this is such a hard topic and, God bless you for, being passionate about this, because we need to learn as much as we can from you. And I would love to know a little bit more about the origin story of why you are so passionate about this.

[00:03:15] Lisa Katona Smith: it’s, really comfortable, and hopeful as a parent to think that my child will make the right choices. But even if they do, they will be faced with those choices at some point, in their young adult lives or adolescent lives. So, so it’s better to be educated and armed with the conversations, so that you can, help them navigate this journey.

[00:03:44] And in terms of myself, this was not a seat that I had expected to sit in. I was actually a teacher for 23 years and had planned on retiring as a teacher. And over the course of raising my own two sons, my oldest has struggled with mental health and ultimately substance use pretty young, in high school.

[00:04:10] And over the course of trying to figure out how to navigate what really became an addiction as an adolescent, I came to find out that the help that was being offered was not very helpful. There was a lot of either step back and allow this situation to unfold. Which, in today’s dynamic of really dangerous drug use, that’s not a, that’s not always a good idea. 

[00:04:48] And secondly, the other option was you are a part of this problem. So shaming the family into getting out of the way. Your son is a problem because you’re an overbearing parent or you’re too involved or you’re, you’ve paved the path for them. And if we’re honest, every single parent, once we get through parenting, adolescents could look back and say, well, I, I could’ve done a few things different. I don’t think there’s one person that doesn’t say that, that they could, and if you aren’t, then you’re probably not looking from a clear lens. But we weren’t wrong in loving our son. We just needed some help in learning how to love him in a more effective way so that we could invite him out of the choices that he was making and, that wasn’t not being offered to families. 

[00:05:40] And so over the course of just trying to figure it out and navigate things and survive, I really had to take a hard look at myself. And came to find out that there was a whole lot of research behind giving support to the whole system, not just the person experiencing the problems. And really comprehensive support. 

[00:06:04] So once I started to support myself, I had the tools and ultimately just decided that there’s a whole lot of people doing this on their own and barely treading water, and they need some help and they need some tools and they need some support and they need some compassion and some validation for their experience in this journey, and I can provide that.

[00:06:27] So that’s how I ended up here. And I’ve created sort of a process called parallel recovery, which is the family engaging in their own recovery process, either with or separate from the person who’s engaging in the problem behavior.

[00:06:42] Randi Rubenstein: It sounds like you created the resource that you wished had been available to you.

[00:06:47] Lisa Katona Smith: Yeah, 

[00:06:48] Randi Rubenstein: If parallel recovery had been available, how would it have looked different with your son? If you could paint that picture for us.

[00:06:56] Lisa Katona Smith: Yeah. So many people that I work with come to me and say, I wish that I had this 10 years ago. I think our situation would have looked very different. And I think I, I can say the same thing. Had I had my support 10 years prior to when I actually found it, which was just my own support of myself, I don’t think things would’ve had to get as bad as they got. I don’t think we would’ve had to fall as far down as we did. 

[00:07:31] There is, starting in 2018, the DSM, the diagnostic manual for mental health and substance use, changed to include mild, moderate and severe substance use disorder. So it used to be, before 2018, you either had addiction or you didn’t. And, imagine having cancer or not cancer, but not stage 1, 2, 3, 4, like there’s very different treatment modalities available for stage one than there is for stage four. And the same thing with substance use disorder. I don’t know that we had to get to s stage four. Maybe we did, but I would’ve been armed with a whole lot more tools before we got there. But had I been supported to navigate how to help my son in stage one, I don’t know that he would’ve reached stage four.

[00:08:26] Randi Rubenstein: Look to, like what does stage one look like? If you, and if it, yeah, just if you, even if it’s a hypothetical and not your son, what, like what would stage one look like and what would, better support look like, that you can have, hopefully not, progress to stage four. Maybe we can, Yeah.

[00:08:49] Lisa Katona Smith: Yeah. So I think what that looks like is, first of all, education around mental health and substance use around brain disorders. Understanding that the brain is attached to the body and diseases of the brain are diseases of the body, and they are treatable, they’re also reoccurring, and they’re also progressive.

[00:09:11] So ignoring it and pretending or hoping, riding on hope, well, this might be just normal experimentation. It might be, typical experimentation and it could easily turn into a substance use disorder depending on. genetic predisposition, depending on trauma experience, depending on, the capacity for the person affected to be able to, be resilient around the things that are actually creating the need for a solution for their pain points. 

[00:09:50] And then creating family dynamics so that the whole family is integrated into curiosity. Honest curiosity, not snooping curiosity, but honest curiosity, like being able to ask the hard questions such as, last weekend it seemed like things got a little bit outta control with you. Help me understand what was going on before Friday night, as opposed to why did you go out and drink too much, or what’s with the parties? Or why are you hanging out with those people? 

[00:10:26] It’s not those people or the parties or the alcohol, it’s what was going on with that person before they were put into the situation or chose to go to the situation where they had a solution in front of them, such as drugs or alcohol, because that’s exactly what they are.

[00:10:44] Randi Rubenstein: Knowing how to ask better questions so that you’re not just staying on the surface. The surface seems like it’s all about our fears. Why are you hanging out with these people? we’ve had this discussion. Why, did you make that choice? I don’t, if we stay on the surface, then we’re just gonna be coming from a place of fear and it’s all that graspy energy and then our kids feel it.

[00:11:09] But it sounds to me like, like knowing the better questions to get to the root ’cause. Drugs and alcohol are just a coping mechanism, right? And so, like we don’t think about it or I don’t know, feel free to disagree with me on this, but, I’m like, we don’t think of ’em as a solution, but drugs and alcohol are solving a problem for people.

[00:11:34] I use, I always used to say with my kids that it’s like liquid or smokey courage. And so why do people, tend to, why do teenagers tend to find themselves in these predicaments where even if they had the best of intentions before they know it, they’re making different choices? And I said, like social anxiety is real. Even for me, and I’m an extrovert, if I go into a situation where I’m not sure if they’re gonna like me or if I’m gonna fit in, or am I comfortable, maybe I’m not comfortable, but I’m trying to, I’m trying to like, play the game, like I will feel anxious. And if I know that I’m showing up as anxious, then who’s gonna wanna hang out with me?

[00:12:22] And so a lot of times people will have those drinks or, take that thing because all your inhibitions are down and now all of a sudden you can be that courageous person. And so I think that that educational piece has been really helpful as, a conversation woven into my family, because it’s if you do make those choices or you find yourself in a bind like you’re human, I’ve been there too, I’m not gonna judge you for it. And if you call me like no questions asked, we’ll talk about it later and we’ll figure out and we’ll get to the root of what was really going on. 

[00:13:02] So it sounds to me like, is that kind of what your thought process is in terms of stage one, when your kids start to experiment with that sort of thing?

[00:13:10] Lisa Katona Smith: Yeah, absolutely. You touched on two things. One is, the surface level questions come from a place of fear and being able to understand that your fear is your fear. It does not have to be offloaded onto your children because fear is not a sustainable action plan. It’s meant to be in an essential, actual, fearful moment, getting us out of a situation. That’s what it’s meant to be. It’s not meant to be something that guides our future decisions. 

[00:13:46] So making sure that as a family member, as a parent or a, a friend, a person, in contact with somebody who’s having a hard time, that your fear, you can even acknowledge it. You can just say, this is a really hard topic for me to talk about because it’s very scary. That’s an acceptable thing to say, but keeping it to yourself, like meaning, keeping it as yours, I am scared and I’m engaging in this conversation is very important and impactful to the other person. 

[00:14:16] The second thing is that you touched on is really getting you’re spot on, Randi, when you said that drugs and alcohol, they are, they’re a solution to a need. Not always a problem, but, sometimes a need, right? I’m not funny or fun unless I am using drugs or alcohol, sometimes people think. That’s not, a, a pain point. It’s just a, a little bit of a flawed understanding of yourself. 

[00:14:47] But the side of that is really important is giving your children or young adult people space to feel the thing that they’re feeling, not saying, well, you’re very funny. That’s, well, I don’t feel funny. So you telling me I’m funny isn’t important. I, frequently I’ll say, it doesn’t matter how many times your dad tells you’re pretty, if you don’t have a date to the prom, you don’t feel pretty. So it’s not helpful to say, oh, but you’re so, nice. Everyone likes you. Well, not the people that I want to like me. You don’t count as my parents. That’s not the important voice right now. 

[00:15:28] So making sure that you’re taking care of your own fear as a parent, taking care, not offloading it, and then giving your children the space to have the experience that is real for them. Not trying to change that experience, just giving them space to have it and talk about it and feel it and work through it.

[00:15:52] Randi Rubenstein: It sounds to me like your process is so beyond the typical recovery, because what you’re really doing is you’re helping families to get underneath the issue and, just to have richer conversations in general. I remember with my, with, my youngest son, 

[00:16:16] he just wasn’t excited about anything, plans with friends or whatever. And this is the, the shadow side of not doing the drugs and alcohol. 

[00:16:26] But I remember him say he was in a slump and he said, I just feel so uninteresting and uninterested. And I think it was like, if you’re getting together with friends and you’re not really feeling comfortable and everybody else is having whatever, or most other people are having, the liquid or smokey or whatever, pill popping, courage and something in his body was not feeling comfortable. 

[00:17:01] And so when he gets uncomfortable, when he doesn’t feel, I think safe, emotionally safe, he clams up and gets real quiet. But he’s got such a cute personality and cute sense of humor, but it doesn’t show because he’s not feeling safe. So he said, I feel uninteresting and uninterested, like it’s not. And I said, well, that’s just your body. That’s the intuition of your body. We had some like really good talks where I said, your intuition is strong and you’re a pretty healthy guy. And so if something doesn’t feel safe for whatever reason, maybe it’s that you’re sensing that other people aren’t being authentic or whatever it is, you tend to clam up. 

[00:17:47] Like it’s alm. It’s like you know that it’s a, they’re your people and it’s a situation that you’re meant to be in when you feel effortlessly funny. And that can mean that you’re just feeling comfortable. Your body’s sending you messages of, yes, more of this feels good, this feels safe. So maybe it’s when you feel uninteresting and uninterested, it’s just a sign that your body doesn’t feel safe. And so that’s brilliant. Do you really want to turn all those signals off? And it didn’t make, the situation killed me. ‘Cause all you want is for your kids to be happy and to feel comfortable and to be with their people and to feel like they belong. 

[00:18:31] And so to see your kid in a little bit of a depressive state, that was so freaking hard. I just, I, remember it was like, I tossed and turned that whole night because I was like, I hated it, but I knew that it was an important conversation. And it sounds like you know that, yeah, you’re like, you’re helping families to have more of those types of conversations so that kids don’t feel like drugs and alcohol are the only option to feel, more interested and interesting.

[00:19:08] Lisa Katona Smith: Yeah. . And they aren’t the problem. They really aren’t. Until they become the problem and then it’s louder, then we’re beyond stage one. Right? 

[00:19:19] So in that story that you were talking about there is really lovely to get underneath the, sort of the surface of what, he was presenting with, and help him see and feel the truth of what was actually happening. And I like to do that in, I call ’em green light moments, like asking for permission to enter the conversation. And then, and this is the teacher in me coming out, right? Sustainability of learning something isn’t me telling you the answer. That’s, it’s me helping you uncover the answer yourself. So leading somebody with sort of these really thought through questions such as, could I share some observation? Or would you be open to hearing my perspective on what I’m seeing happen before you say, Hey look, this is what’s actually happening to you. 

[00:20:23] And it’s really hard. So first of all, we’re older than our children. We’ve lived way more numbers of days and we’ve had some of these similar experiences. So it’s easy for us to jump to a. What we know the answer is, or what we know the analysis is in our own lives. They haven’t had those hours in their life yet. And so they need the opportunity to unpack it themselves.

[00:20:51] So asking for a simple, before you offer this is what I’m seeing, ask if you can offer it. So first of all, it’s preparing the child for the road as opposed to the road for the child. one and two, it’s making sure that they actually are open to hearing your analysis because it might be wrong. They might have a different analysis or they might not be open to it. They might just need to have a pity party right now. 

[00:21:20] And then the second thing is, understanding, being able to couch your fear and deal with your fear separate from your child. And then asking them, would you be open to, this is really insightful information, would you be open to maybe talking to somebody else about this? ‘Cause I think that, this is actually something that is getting in your way and I might not be the person to help you through it. So being able to, as a parent, understand where your credentials end and where somebody else’s credentials might begin.

[00:21:54] Randi Rubenstein: Yeah, I think for teenagers, sometimes talking to a third party can be so helpful. And you know what was interesting, that conversation when I go back to it, it actually came after we, we, things had gone sideways with us. He had been taking out this bad mood on me and he had just been, and I kept just, like I knew something was going on with him and he kept taking his bad mood and he kept just saying shitty things and, and trying to engage me in a little bit of a fight dance, like he just was feeling crummy.

[00:22:31] And so he kept throwing the fishing line to see if I would bite. And, and I kept blowing it off ’cause I knew something was going on. And then finally I snapped and I was like, I don’t know what’s going on with you, but I am really sick of being your human punching bag. So maybe just, maybe just come back to me when you’re ready to talk to me like a nice person because I’m really getting sick of this and I don’t know what’s going on. So either come back to me when you’re ready to tell me what’s really going on, or, I don’t, I don’t know what to tell you. 

[00:23:09] And so I had really, and, I didn’t say it like this, I was like, when I was snapping on it, I was like, it’s enough. Like it was that firm voice or whatever. And he just left and he came back a few hours later and and I’ll never forget I was out in my little courtyard and I think I was like laying on a yoga mat. I was just trying to relax ’cause it was really bothering me.

[00:23:31] And he came back and he said, mom, I’m sorry for taking that out on you, I’ve just been a little bit. And he said, I’ve been a little bit in a slump. I’ve just, I’ve just been a little bit like I’m not excited about anything. And senior year is already such a disappointment. And and he knows I have a joy agenda. I tell, them all the time. So he didn’t wanna, he’s not wanting to admit, Hey, I know this is gonna be disappointing, but I’m not exactly loving senior year. So he, instead he was just treating me like dirt. 

[00:24:05] And when that, and when this all came out, it was so interesting because he said when he came, he said, I said, what, what is it? And he said, I just feel so uninteresting and uninterested. And, and I thought that was like so self-aware even that, so like it was in the context of a whole conversation and and it was a big breakthrough because I could also share in those moments when even me, I clam up, he sees me as such the extrovert and he knows like what I do.

[00:24:46] And I’m like, there are times where I told him I think I, I shared a story where I was like. when I go into a, blah, blah, blah store or, this situation, I will feel so like a fish out of water. 

[00:25:04] who hasn’t felt socially anxious?

[00:25:08] And so like when we have kids, I remember my son, my older son, who was a total introvert telling me that, when he’s socializing, he, and this was when he was in college, when he’s socializing, he loses his appetite. Because it took so much bandwidth, and they would all go out to dinner and whatever. And it’s I think tho at and when you are feeling those things and then you find out you can just, bond with other people by taking another shot or smoking another thing. it’s almost it seems like it’s a miracle when kids don’t fall into that way of coping with, not feeling comfortable in a 

[00:25:54] Lisa Katona Smith: Yeah. Yeah, for sure. And there’s definitely risk factors that make some people’s brains more, susceptible to falling into the disorder of addiction. I agree with you that it, it’s amazing that so many people make it out. But it’s really alarming how many people don’t. The numbers are extraordinarily high. And again, because we have the spectrum of diagnostics now, I think it’s really important to just really understand the intentionality behind the solution that you are going to, so that you can be aware when you realize, I might be going to this more often than I’m comfortable, or when I see my friends doing this, it doesn’t look the same as when I do this.

[00:27:00] Because those are the things that secondarily we need to be armed with, is to understand our risk factors and understand that you are not bad if this gets out of control. You just have some risk factors that have put you in a position just like any other, health problem. You have some risk factors that maybe put you at risk of falling into this being a problem more than what other people might have a problem with.

[00:27:32] Randi Rubenstein: Well, I would love talking about the risk factors. If you look back, everyone who listens to this has what we have coined a strong-willed child. Which is just my way of saying, it’s a kid that is, you’re like, why does it seem like everyone else’s kid will do X, Y and Z? Or everyone else’s kid at the birthday parties doing what they’re supposed to be doing, and my kid is clocking someone over the head or, hiding behind my leg and refusing to participate.

[00:28:10] And so strong-willed just seems to be like the terminology that feels palatable, for these kids that are puzzling, that we’re trying to figure out. We can tell there’s something, that they need support on, and we’re, racking our brains looking to support them and, trying to learn as much as we possibly can. So would you have described your son as a strong-willed kid? like I would love to know a 

[00:28:37] Lisa Katona Smith: Yeah. I don’t know that I buy into the strong-willed piece. I call ’em game changers, because strong-willed became like, and really attaches to little boys too. And I’m like, are they strong-willed or are they just a little boy? And as a teacher, I never really caught onto that.

[00:28:59] Those were the kids who ate lunch in my classroom. I taught secondary, and they were the ones who felt comfortable in their own containers separate from the lunchroom. So I call ’em the game changers, the ones who invite you and everyone around them to look at things from a different lens. Frequently I’ve said that my son is the grass is blue and the sky is green person, like he is an out of the box guy and has been from the get go. 

[00:29:30] Strong-willed. No, I think my younger one was way more strong-willed, more independent. but he, but my son who has struggled, it was the noticer. He was the sensitive one. And when I speak in public spaces with families who are impacted, I always start with, raise your hand if the person you’re here for is the sensitive one in your family. Is the creative one in your family. Is the out of the box thinker in your family. Is the big feeler and the noticer in your family. And every single person’s hand goes up. And if we’re honest, those are the people who change the world if given the right opportunities. 

[00:30:12] They’re also, growing up the kids who don’t fit into the containers that we create and provide. I have a book and in the very beginning of my book I talk about my son going to first grade and going into his classroom and the teacher had everybody’s names on their desk and all the kids had to find their desk and then sit down and begin working on a piece of paper that was on their desk. And my son was so excited and he walked into that classroom and he put his leg up on the chair and he looked around and he was taking it in. 

[00:30:48] And everyone sat down, I was watching this happen in real time as a teacher, he, everyone in that classroom was sitting down and adhering to the ask, and my son was taking it all in. He was experiencing the situation. And I could see that situation made sense to every one of those children. And my son’s situation made total sense to him. That’s what he needed to become a learner. He needed to take it in first, not follow the structure or the script of somebody else’s learning process. 

[00:31:29] And it hindsight is 2020, but I should have run fast away from that situation. And I didn’t, I tried to fit him into that hole that was not his shape. And that was the story moving forward of his experience with fitting into the structures that we create for children and then subsequently adolescents, and then subsequently adults. And the truth is, there’s a space for everybody in this world. We just need to help them find it.

[00:32:02] Randi Rubenstein: And when he was putting his leg up on the desk and not doing what he did, that as, oh, he’s so sensitive. He’s such a game changer. Or at that time were you like, just do the thing how? Yeah.

[00:32:17] Lisa Katona Smith: Yeah, I think there was a part of me, there was a part of me that was like, do the thing, right? come on, just fall in line. And then there were, but he wasn’t, this is why I don’t like to use the word strong-willed. He wasn’t a strong-willed child. He was a noticer. He was a take the world in so that I can learn that way kind of guy. And, I just, it made total sense to him. It, I was like, absolutely, this is how he’s going to learn, by watching and witnessing and experiencing not falling in line. And so most of me didn’t think fall in line.

[00:32:56] Randi Rubenstein: yeah. When you were witnessing it, were you that liaison advocating for him to teachers of he just, he beats to his own drum a little bit, but he, he’s observing right now. He likes to, were you able to translate that?

[00:33:16] Lisa Katona Smith: Yes. it. It became more of a fight than a collaboration. And that first grade year was super impactful. An example of that is, do you remember when your kids were little and like they learn math and they have the little manipulatives, like I think his classroom had little tiny bears that were different colors to be able to learn counting with? Do you remember that kind of?

[00:33:38] Randi Rubenstein: Yeah. Yeah.

[00:33:39] Lisa Katona Smith: Yeah. So, my son was coming home from school and he was crying, and very quickly after that first day of school, and I approached his teacher and I said, some something’s wrong. And she said, well, he just needs so many things. He needs so many accommodations. And she brought up the bears. Like he always wants to get the bears out every time it’s math time and we don’t have time to do bears when it’s math time. And I said, here’s the deal. My son doesn’t need a hug from you. That’s not what he’s looking for. He needs the bears. Give him the damn bears. 

[00:34:12] Hug the little girl who needs a hug from you. Give her that. She needs that. Give him the damn bears. Let him use the bears. He needs to feel the things he’s learning in order for him to learn. He’s not asking for a hug, he’s asking for bears. Teach him how to get the bears out himself so that you don’t have to be a part of it, but let him get the bears so that he can feel successful at counting.

[00:34:37] Randi Rubenstein: Would you have, do you think his teacher would have defined him as strong-willed? 

[00:34:47] Lisa Katona Smith: Yeah. 

[00:34:48] Randi Rubenstein: Yeah. See, so that’s, yeah. So, so that’s really the terminology is, it’s a little bit of an ethical bait and switch because that’s what society is defining these kids who are typically exact, they, are the highly sensitive ones. They are the intu, they’re extra intuitive. There is, you can’t, and I’d love to even segue into a little bit more of your process, which it sounds to me like your process is, you gotta live it to give it like, like we can’t be hypocrites if we want our kids to, to live a life of like even beyond recovery, right. And to not need drugs and alcohol to thrive and feel like their best or most courageous selves or however you define it. You can’t be doing the thing and then expecting them to live by a different standard. It sounded to me like, like your method is let’s look in the mirror and let’s walk the walk. But I don’t know if I’m mistaken it. 

[00:35:59] And so I, I really, the strong will is society defines these kids differently. And what these kids need so much in terms of support are cycle breaker moms like you, like I feel like you’re the game changer and moms like you are the game changers who go in and, you, for you to even say it wasn’t a collaboration like you had to advocate.

[00:36:29] And and I call that pack leadership. When we show up in pack Leadership, I actually, me and my daughter are writing a children’s series. and it’s really focused on these kids and their families. And the most recent one, which my daughter right now is editing, is all about a mean teacher. it’s called Mrs. Stein. That’s the title right now, the working title. 

[00:36:55] But my daughter was just saying, she’s ’cause I write the first draft. And then she comes in and she said, she just said to me yesterday on the plane, she was going over it and she said, I think this might be my favorite. I really love this one. I said, and my text back to her was, it feels like justice for adults behaving badly and it just being an acceptable thing in society. So, I don’t know. Would you disagree with any of the Yeah.

[00:37:24] Lisa Katona Smith: I wouldn’t disagree with it at all. And I think, if we approach human experiences from, six year olds acting out in a classroom to adults or adolescents or young adults using drugs or alcohol to soothe the pain or need,

[00:37:42] Randi Rubenstein: Mm-hmm. 

[00:37:43] Lisa Katona Smith: Nobody’s trying to suck at their life. I actually don’t believe that anybody goes into their day going, I’m gonna try and suck at this. they really, I just don’t believe it. I don’t believe that innately people are, bad people. They’re just having experiences that they don’t understand and that other people don’t understand or afraid of or uncomfortable with as well. And when, when we talk about just our nuclear family, if we can start creating opportunities for our young people to have their experience, just have it, without us needing them to unhave it, they’re gonna learn how to have it and work through it. 

[00:38:34] But we take it personal. I could have, and I, there were moments where I did take it personal. I’m a teacher. How can my kid be the one who isn’t learning the right way, quote unquote, the right way, the way, that, how come he’s not learning to read the way everybody else is learning to read and he needs a different system? What did I do wrong? 

[00:38:54] This isn’t about me at all. This is about how his brain works. So how can I show up in his human experience and how his brain works and how he sees the grass is blue and the sky is green. I just go with grass being green and sky being blue ’cause someone told me, but what if that’s not even real? What if he’s right? I don’t know. Maybe things would be prettier.

[00:39:20] Randi Rubenstein: Mm-hmm. 

[00:39:21] Lisa Katona Smith: Maybe there would be answers out there that I haven’t discovered yet.

[00:39:28] Randi Rubenstein: Here, you’re preaching to the choir on this. I’m like, I’m like, would Silicon, would Silicon Valley exist? Which at this day and age we’re all like, wish maybe Silicon Valley didn’t exist, but, yeah, they’re the out of the box thinkers and, I completely agree and I think, and I also put my kids in mainstream education and, and I coulda, shoulda would’ve, trying to fit them into that wrong shape. 

[00:40:07] And so I, I, look, I wish that there were more, and nowadays more people are homeschooling and, back when my kids were younger and your kids were younger, it didn’t seem like it was as common a choice. so that wasn’t in the cards. 

[00:40:25] But it was, it was, I was like, okay, I don’t really and I say this to my, I’m like, I don’t really like traditional education actually. I think it’s outdated. I think it, it’s it’s like when we look at how is there not super trains in America, like there are in Europe. There’s, and it’s like I don’t understand how we haven’t figured that out. 

[00:40:48] And then, but it’s also like how have we not figured out that raising kids to think like leaders is not, it’s inconsistent to train them to think like sheep, and that the grass can only be green and the sky can only be blue. Like we know better and we’re not doing better for our kids. And so, but I’m not starting a school so I can preach about it all day long. I, me and my daughter were talking about it and I was like, God, maybe we should start a school. And I was like, but then we’d have to teach them like math and English, and that would be terrible. I just wanna play with them and do deal with all the social emotional learning. Right? 

[00:41:31] But yeah, I would, anyway, so I wanna, I want us to have time to really segue into how your process and your program and how you really help when people haven’t been able to have these conversations at stage one and they’re now in a situation where it’s gone even b beyond stage one. I would love to know more about your 

[00:41:55] Lisa Katona Smith: Yeah. So I would say step one is, Hey, I don’t think I’ve been showing up in a helpful way to you, and I’ve also been feeling really overwhelmed with everything that’s going on. So let’s put it on the table that like there’s some problems, right? We’ve been talking about the alcohol, we’ve been talking about the drug use. We can, we’ve been talking about depression or self harm behavior, eating disorders, like the things that are masking, insert any maladaptive coping skill, as an addictive behavior. It doesn’t have to just be drugs and alcohol. That just tends to be the scariest one, the one that, that wakes us up.

[00:42:39] Randi Rubenstein: Technology like tech Yes. That we’re dealing with. We’re dealing with, yeah. We’re dealing with technology right now. I’m dealing with it with my 19-year-old. He’s trying so hard, and I’m gonna have him on the podcast soon because he’s been, he put himself on a flip phone experiment, since the summer. But I’ll tell you, it hasn’t. He’s still going on his iPad. He has an iPad, and so it’s like he tried to, it’s like abstaining from something, but he hasn’t truly trained himself or been able to break up with that addictive habit and that addictive pattern. It’s so, I’m so glad you said, maybe it’s drugs and alcohol, but it might be something else. And and for many of us, it’s technology.

[00:43:27] Lisa Katona Smith: Yeah. Absolutely. And let’s be real, like that can be very impactful. It pulls you into areas of the internet that are scary and dangerous and feeding information and pulling young people into it, especially young men. And really dangerous situations. So step one is, I’m sure there’s been fights and conversations and arguments and exasperation and all the things that go around maladaptive coping skill behavior with a young person. Stepping forward and saying, I am not proud of how I’ve been showing up for myself or for you. So I’m gonna do some things different. I’m learning how to address this differently. I’m also gonna deal with how it’s impacting me separately from you and putting it on the table. 

[00:44:25] And I think that does a couple things. One, it says you’re gonna hear some things that sound different. it’s preparing them, it’s setting it up. Second thing it does is it models what we want them to do, which is for them to come forward and say, I don’t think I have a healthy relationship with my Friday nights, and I wanna look at doing this different. Oh, okay. Right. They’re solutioning for themselves rather than us giving them the solution. So it’s modeling the way forward and it’s taking the responsibility of our discomfort off of them, and cue them up for you might hear some things that sound different. 

[00:45:06] And then, so that’s step one. Step two is, I call it loving better. And I use those words, I’m going to love you a little differently. Love you better. I’m gonna learn how to love you better. And that might mean you’re hearing no more often because separating boundaries from controlling the behavior is really important. Being able to say, Hey, look, this is something that I’m not comfortable with and I can’t co-sign for it. I’m not gonna say yes to that. And if this happens again, here’s what I’m going to do. That’s a boundary. Not, you can’t do this, right, because then you’re just gonna be resentful and disappointed that they, actually do continue to do that thing. 

[00:45:51] And then you give ownership to the person to be able to have the experience in a semis safe container so that they can understand that their consequences aren’t tied to your love and their consequences are a direct result of what they can choose to do differently. And, so that’s conceptual stuff, so if you wanna maybe throw an example out at me, I can definitely unpack it. But, that’s co conceptually, step 1, 2, 3, right there.

[00:46:24] Randi Rubenstein: I love the loving better language. I, I, the step one, I have a three step productive con conversation that I teach. And, step one, to me, your step one is it’s ownership, it’s accountability, it’s, this is what I’m gonna do, this is what I’m looking at. Within me, it’s, I think kids are so used to, when we wanna sit down and have a conversation, it’s like they’re gonna be criticized.

[00:46:59] It, it’s I was just talking with this, about this part, with some of my moms, but they, I think a lot of us have that uhoh, I’m gonna be in trouble part and Right. And so, one of the moms, 40-year-old mom was like, I, I could get called into my boss’s office and it’s because I’m getting a raise, I’m getting a bonus. just being called in gives me pause, makes me have a pit in my stomach. 

[00:47:29] And I think it’s so, so sitting down and having one of these conversations, our kids might have that. Oh, I’m about to get in trouble part, I’m about to get criticized part. So starting it the way that you just suggested. I love that so much because it’s just it’s not what they’re probably expecting either.

[00:47:49] Lisa Katona Smith: Yeah. And you don’t have to talk about them at all. You can just say, Hey, look, it’s been really hard. We’ve been fighting a lot. There’s been a lot of things that, I disagree with, that you disagree with, that, everyone’s disagreeing with. And I want you to know that I’m uncomfortable, so I’m gonna do something about it. 

[00:48:05] I had a client whose son used to call those conversations being pulled over, and I’m like, man, it’s brilliant. And dads are notorious for it. Dads love to have a conversation. we need to have a conversation. And every, your dad, you could be 60 years old and your dad asks you to have a conversation and you think you’re in trouble. And I think back to the last time I got a speeding ticket, the, I was going really fast and I knew I was going really fast and, in a not fast environment. And the first thing the police officer said to me was, do you know why I pulled you over? And that immediately puts them above you

[00:48:47] Randi Rubenstein: Mm-hmm.

[00:49:21] Lisa Katona Smith: it would’ve been fine that I got the ticket, but we could have had a human connection that created much more impactful opportunity for me to change my solution as opposed to I still, this was years ago and I still remember that, like that dude was a jerk. He wanted to have a power trip over me and on his like chest cam. He asked me if I knew why I got pulled over. Well, yeah, I know I was going 20 miles over the speed limit. That’s why I got pulled over.

[00:49:51] So when we pull over our kids and we say, let’s have a conversation, they know it’s about them and something they did wrong, which connects them and the love you can offer to them as a person, we wanna separate that. I love the person, not okay with this behavior. How can I love you? And what, how can we talk about this behavior? Here’s what I’m gonna do to protect myself. Here’s the boundaries that I’m gonna create so that our family is remaining as safe as possible. And I also love you and wanna know what’s going on. 

[00:50:26] Randi Rubenstein: So

[00:50:26] Lisa Katona Smith: It’s not a conversation stopper, it’s a conversation starter. Now is this the slow path? Yep, it’s the slow path. But the foundation of my kind of process of communicating this way of loving better is sustainability of the impacted family. How do I keep loving this game changer? 

[00:50:48] ‘Cause they’re hard. They are. If you’ve got more than one kid, they’re hard. And how do I connect to the person separate from the behavior That is really difficult. Those are the two things, sustainability in this, ’cause it’s slow and it’s long and they’re going to be the one that stretches their wings long term. They’re the ones that go, but why? And how do I love this person? ‘Cause sometimes they’re hard to love because their behavior is difficult.

[00:51:20] Randi Rubenstein: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Well, I, what you described, I love the being pulled over, example, because to me it’s the difference between p power overing someone and then learning, but learning how to power with, and so your process to me sounds like a power withing.

[00:51:38] Lisa Katona Smith: Yeah.

[00:51:39] Randi Rubenstein: And honestly talking about yourself and what’s going on with you and what you’re committed to doing better, to loving them better. Right? I mean that another little, I know everyone always wants the tips and the scripts, and we were talking before we started recording about, that it’s really about learning how to think differently. The only way, you know, the only way you’re ever gonna remember some helpful tips and scripts is if you are truly thinking differently. So hopefully this conversation has helped people to start to think a little differently beyond the surface going to the root. 

[00:52:19] And when we’re power withing someone, it truly is collaborative. It’s empowering them. We’re saying things like, I, I’m learning how to love you better. Or, I always say, I love you too much. Not to say, not like I’ll say to my kids, I’m like, I have a joy agenda. I come from a place of yes, all I wanna do is say yes to the ice cream and yes to the thing. And I love you too much to say yes right now. 

[00:52:54] Because I am thinking that, of course you wanna do this in this immediate moment, or it sounds crazy, but in this day and age, I was just talking to one of my kids about this, people have, adults are allowing the rip roaring fraternity style parties to happen at their house. And and now my son’s in college and once you’re in college, things are a little different, whatever. But, he was, all his friends wanted to come and hang over at our house. And he was like, no. And I said, take a picture of me right now. And he, had his iPad, ’cause cell phone doesn’t. And I did a thumbs down and I said, send that to your group chat. We’re not doing that.

[00:53:41] And we were having a conversation and I said. I don’t understand, if every, all of you guys wanna get together, you don’t have your own houses, you’re all underage. If you wanted to take part in risky behavior, like that’s up to you guys to figure out. And I just think when it’s happening at these, and it’s just so cushy and easy, and I know the argument where parents say, well, they’re gonna be doing it anyway, I might as well keep them safe. 

[00:54:11] And I’m like, but if you take out any of the friction, right? thank God in this day and age they are, they all know there has to be a sober driver. I don’t know about you, but we were all behind a wheel in ridiculous, disgusting states. And so thank goodness that has changed. But I’m like, we used to go to Wanner Park, we all met up at Wanner Park and somebody was on the lookout. Like teenage behavior does involve some risky behavior and I’m not saying go do it. I, I just think that when parents facilitate that, it it seems like it always intensifies because they’re always looking for that friction.

[00:54:55] Lisa Katona Smith: Yeah. Yeah, totally. First of all, thank you for saying that. I, there’s, that is a conversation that is alarming actually. The amount of people who are co-signing that type of behavior, and I, if they’re honest with themselves, it’s their own fear mindset. It’s also, I would argue there’s a little bit of a need to be seen as something important in those young people’s relationship with you. And that’s a hard look in the mirror. so I’ll just leave it at 

[00:55:32] Randi Rubenstein: Amy Poehler’s character for Mean Girls of wanting to be the cool mom.

[00:55:37] Lisa Katona Smith: Yes.

[00:55:38] Randi Rubenstein: Yeah. And let me tell you, let me tell you, I’ve, my kids are now young adults. They have no respect for the cool moms. All the kids are talking about the cool mom or the cool parents in a kind of pathetic way. So, so yeah, so, so people are fool. People are fooling themselves. If you really think that you’re earning credibility and respect in the kids, they might appreciate that you’re making it super easy for them, but they don’t have respect for the cool parent. Yeah.

[00:56:11] Lisa Katona Smith: Totally. And, you’re also not taking into consideration and doing something very selfish. You don’t understand everybody’s background and everybody’s predisposition, and there is science behind each year of delay, of introduction of drugs and alcohol makes the addictive diagnosis less so, the delaying actually does make a difference.

[00:56:42] We’re talking about brains that are not done. And by the way, brains are not done until 26, 27, 28, and now even pushing surpassing that and there’s reasons for it beyond 20 that aren’t just social media and that kind of stuff that are actually ’cause of our length of life living longer and all that kinda stuff. We’re delaying the growth of our brain. 

[00:57:03] Like these young people aren’t, don’t have full brains to make those good decisions for themselves yet. And those drugs and alcohols are more impactful than they are on your brain when they’re 18, 19, 20 16, even 25 years old. So there’s that. When you take away what you, when families parents talk, take away, Randi, what you described as. Did you say the crunchiness or the, 

[00:57:31] Randi Rubenstein: The friction.

[00:57:32] Lisa Katona Smith: The friction. When you take away perspective of, this is not supposed to be what we’re doing. I was not supposed to be driving 20 miles over the speed limit in the area that I was driving 20 miles over the speed limit. Thank goodness I did not hit somebody. There’s a reason for that, the speed limit. And it’s not because they just wanna make my life inconvenient. There’s actually a good reason for it, whether I like the reason or not

[00:58:04] . So when we take away the friction, we’re actually taking away young people’s opportunity to act, develop, and grow their brain and understand that I don’t have to like broccoli to understand that broccoli is good for me. Or I don’t have to agree with the fact that broccoli is good for me to understand that there’s health benefits for it. I don’t have to agree with the fact that people with undeveloped brains shouldn’t drink alcohol and use drugs to understand that there is a reason for it.

[00:58:40] So when you take away the friction, you’re actually confusing a brain that isn’t ready to look from the lens that you are looking at as a full grown lived adult. Well, like we’re, just because they look like adults doesn’t mean that their brains are adults yet. They aren’t. So stop putting them in positions to make those decisions with a co-sign of, yes, this is okay. That’s very confusing for young people.

[00:59:12] Randi Rubenstein: I agree. I agree. It’s yeah. Something has happened where I think adults are scared to be, the parents are scared to say no, are scared to be the adults. It’s, can you imagine when we were growing up, it, you waited for parents to go outta town and then there was a sneaky party and it was a complete shit show. And then you were, showing up, you were trying like crazy to go and clean up so that, put everything back exactly so, and of course the parents always found out or figured it out. 

[00:59:53] But that’s part of the experience like that is, the memory. And then when you’re the one who, if it’s at your house, it’s not fun. You’re worried the whole time. But these are important life lessons, and when we’re the ones who are facilitating the fun, because our fear is in the driver’s seat and we’re just, we’re justifying that, at least we’re keeping them safe. You’re taking out so much of that experience that, like adolescence is going to involve risk taking and friction, and we’re not supposed to be facilitating that.

[01:00:36] We’re supposed to be the grounded grownups who they come to after they fuck it all up and then we help, and we help, we show up and we, yeah, we dig ’em out and we don’t shame and blame and berate. We just show up as those grownups and that’s what we’re modeling. 

[01:00:54] And so I just feel like it’s like in so many ways, the clowns are running the circus and it, just feels like chaos. So thank you for standing for this and teaching people and helping people. And, if there’s any final thoughts that you wanna leave our audience with or where they should go to find out more, I’d love for you to share that.

[01:01:18] Lisa Katona Smith: Yeah, sure. maybe just one little, piece of, if you are in the thick of it, if you’re beyond, what you would identify as typical experimentation with a young person in your life, I just want you to know that your gut is right and listen to it. 

[01:01:38] And secondarily try to put an outcome out of you, your goal should not be the outcome. Your goal should be connecting to this person who is struggling so that you can walk with them through the fire, through the hard circumstances, as opposed to just trying to find a solution, like a bandaid or a, bow on the top of the gift. like. I’ll just get them into therapy and then everything will be okay. This is an invitation for you to learn how to engage differently and show up differently for your young person. So I just wanna put that out there. 

[01:02:21] In terms of finding me, you can find me on my website, lisakatonasmith.com. I have a book called Parallel Recovery. It’s on Amazon. I have a TEDx talk called The Power of Parallel Recovery, and I’m most active on Instagram @parallel_recovery.

[01:02:38] Randi Rubenstein: Love it. I love it. and I love this work that you do. It reminds me of that old Ted talk by, what was his name? Johann Hari. Yeah. 

[01:02:48] Lisa Katona Smith: The opposite of addiction is connection.

[01:02:50] Randi Rubenstein: And it sounds like that’s what you’re really helping people with. So beautiful work. Thank you so much. 

[01:02:57] Thanks for listening today, guys. I hope you picked up some tips, tools, maybe some baby steps for creating more balance and boundaries in your life. And I just wanted to let you know, if you want to continue moving the needle forward in creating this for yourself, having a happier household, I want you to go to my website and check out mastermindparenting.com. We have three beginning programs, and if you need some accountability and more support then please look for the one that would be a good fit for you.

[01:03:31] And, as always, we’re on all the social channels under Mastermind Parenting, on Instagram it’s mastermind_parenting. And, you know, periodically I do pop up on different Instagram lives, Facebook lives where I give you teaching and coaching and I love engaging with you live to help you help your strong-willed kids so that they can feel better, because when they feel better they do better, and I love, love, love getting to know you guys. 

[01:04:05] So thanks for listening. If you like this podcast, please don’t forget to subscribe, rate and review. Super, appreciative.