336: When Your Kid Is Heading Down A Dark Path (with Lisa Katona Smith)

[00:00:00] Ash Brandin: nothing enrages me faster than like technology, like needlessly replacing something that was already functional. I hate, I hate it. And I know that me like having that as the hill I’m willing to die on is not gonna make it go away. 

[00:00:18] Narrator: When it comes to kids in screen time, it’s easy to get trapped in binary thinking, but screens can’t be all good or all bad. Can they? 

[00:00:25] Ash Brandin: The opposite of, of a binary take like a very, you know, fear-based take is being neutral and being able to recognize that, okay, this is the reality we’re in and I don’t necessarily like it. But like, this is the reality we’re in.  

[00:00:40] Narrator: Ash Brandin is a teacher, gamer and author of Power On: Managing Screen Time to Benefit the Whole Family. They’ve helped families just like yours to set loving boundaries around kids and screens that respects the technology while centering the needs of our children.

[00:00:53] Ash Brandin: Like individuals are not the reason we’re in this place. So it feels a little unfair to then put the burden of that further on the individual.

[00:01:02] it can put a lot of guilt on caregivers that they can’t achieve this on their own, but our society isn’t really making it possible to achieve that.

[00:01:12] Randi Rubenstein: My name is Randi Rubenstein, and welcome to the Mastermind Parenting Podcast. At Mastermind Parenting, we’re on a mission to support strong-willed kids and the families that love them. 

[00:01:23] Well, hi everyone. I am here with Ash Brandin, and we are talking about all things, screens, technology, our kids and screens, our teenagers on screens. The conversation that is sort of the bane of many of our existences. And thank God for you, for people like you who teach us what, how we’re supposed to do to navigate this tricky topic. So thank you so much.

[00:01:55] Ash Brandin: Absolutely. Thank you so much for having me. I’m glad to be here.

[00:02:00] Randi Rubenstein: Okay, your book, power On. For, I love the name, Power On Managing, Managing Screen Time to Benefit the Whole Family. Mm-hmm. how did you come up? I, I’m naming something right now and so, like finding just the right name. How did you find that name?

[00:02:19] Ash Brandin: I can’t remember what I originally had said. It was something extremely similar and my agents like tweaked it just the tiniest bit to end up with Power On. The subtitle was me. But yeah, it was, I can’t remember what I originally thought and I think it was like too close to something that already existed or something, and then my agent suggested that one. Yeah, just stuck.

[00:02:42] Randi Rubenstein: it’s so good and this book is so good and I have to tell you that it’s so funny because in my basics program I also teach a NICE framework.

[00:02:54] Ash Brandin: What? No way.

[00:02:56] Randi Rubenstein: Unbelievable?

[00:02:58] Ash Brandin: Funny 

[00:02:58] Randi Rubenstein: Isn’t that unbelievable? I mean, 

[00:03:01] Ash Brandin: What is yours for?

[00:03:03] Randi Rubenstein: So people come in and when they take my initial program, it’s a 12 week program and we call it basics bootcamp. And they’re just basically looking, they’re learning the Mastermind Parenting method, you know, method of handling strong-willed kids. For supporting strong-willed kids. Yeah, just those kids that seem like they just don’t wanna cooperate. But the truth is, is that we’re quite often solving the wrong problem.

[00:03:36] Ash Brandin: Mm

[00:03:36] Randi Rubenstein: Thinking that they’re the problem when that’s just not the case. And so I take people through this framework and we’re, we get real good at identifying what is the actual problem that we’re solving. and 

[00:03:48] it’s nice overlap.

[00:03:50] Yeah, there’s a lot of nice overlap. That’s really the main reason I wanted to talk to you today. I was telling you that my coworker Lindsey, she started listening to your book and she just kept sending me messages saying Mastermind aligned. Like, we love them, you have to talk to them on the podcast. This is the, this is the thing we’ve been looking, looking for. And I was like, okay, okay, okay.

[00:04:15] Okay. And, you know, my kids are older, so I’m not in the fire in the same way, but I am in the fire with all of my clients and all of the moms and dads who are struggling with why, how long do we have to wait for Silicon Valley to make life a little easier on us parents? I know, I know. But in the meantime, we need people like you that help us to, to navigate. 

[00:04:43] And, and you know, I, I wanna talk about. you know, the thing I liked about your book so much is it’s rooted in realism, right? Like, like, so I look, I love the work of Jonathan Haidt and there’s many things that I completely agree with. However, however, I’m like, yes, play-based childhood. Yes, yes, yes. And like, how many people are living their lives in the way he prescribes?

[00:05:20] Ash Brandin: Uhhuh per, thank you. Perfect. Yes. I mean, what you said is perfectly said. Like I would, I would love, I’ve said this many times, but you know, I’d love to be able to unring the bell of technological ubiquity, like people assume that because I am not like, more fear-based or like anti screen that I must be like pro screen and I’m like, no. The opposite of like a binary take, I mean, not to make this too meta, is a non-binary take, right? Which is like, which The opposite of, of a binary take like a very, you know, fear-based take is n is being neutral and being able to recognize that, okay, this is the reality we’re in and I don’t necessarily like it. But like, this is the reality we’re in. 

[00:06:05] And you know, I joke that there’s this like meme from the Simpsons of, it says like, old man yells at cloud and it’s like his dad like yelling at a cloud. And I, you know, I say nothing turns me into that faster than like when I go to park my car and there’s no more like kiosks to put in my license plate number. And now it’s like, scan this QR code and download an app. And I’m like, no. You know, nothing, nothing enrages me faster than like technology, like needlessly replacing something that was already functional. I hate, I hate it. And I know that me like having that as the hill I’m willing to die on is not gonna make it go away. Right? 

[00:06:48] And so I think there’s sort of a nostalgia built into that way of viewing the world that we’re kind of pining for this reality that just doesn’t exist anymore. And I think it is, I think it is in many ways the, a symptom of an overly individualistic world in America that got us here, right? 

[00:07:14] Like we didn’t care enough for parents to have pay, parental leave. We didn’t care enough for young families to have affordable or accessible or like free universal childcare. We didn’t care enough about the collective to put in these foundational systemic, like bumpers that would make it easier to have, one caregiver at home or, being able to say, you’re gonna go play outside, or I’m going to be able to completely turn off my work brain ’cause I’m spending more time at home. Like those things are built into the framework. 

[00:07:52] And so then when we say like, oh, we’ll just do more as an individual to try to attain that. Like individuals are not the reason we’re in this place. So it feels a little unfair to then put the burden of that further on the individual. Because as you said, like most families are not in a position where they can do this, and the families that are are really privileged.

[00:08:18] I don’t mean that like derisively, I’m one of those families technically, but you know, a, a family living in an apartment building in an urban environment, they can’t just be like, go outside. Right? A family who is facing disability or has a neurodivergent child or families of color, they can’t just send their kids outdoors unattended. We don’t live in a world where that’s systemically possible. 

[00:08:42] So I think it’s a very simple sounding idea that then becomes like. Really it, it can put a lot of guilt on caregivers that they can’t achieve this on their own, but our society isn’t really making it possible to achieve that.

[00:08:59] Randi Rubenstein: Right. Even in the privilege population, it’s like we set the tone, the parents set the tone, and I think the conversation that most people, everyone wants to talk about, our kids being addicted to screens and they’re not moving their bodies and they’re not playing outside. But I can’t tell you how many moms come clean when they start working with me and they’re a part of my groups, and they see that, it’s like, oh, we’re doing that here. It’s like radical truth telling. And we’re talking about what really is happening behind this scenes. 

[00:09:35] And you know, so people get honest and they’re on their phones the whole time. Like, it, it never occurred to so many parents. When I say listen, like even if you have, your life is set up where from the time your kid comes home from school, you, you’re, you are not at work. You’re home with them. Put your phone if you, if you don’t want them to be on devices, put your phone in a drawer, put it away. Don’t be on it. Like, just don’t be on your screen when you know, when you’re with them, just be with them and, and put it away if it’s too hard to scroll. 

[00:10:15] Like, I understand if you get like a, you know, a phone call or whatever, but if it’s like, you know, somebody like it, it’s, it’s, it’s an emergent situation or whatever it is, but it, it’s like, I’m with my kids, we’re gonna go to the park or we’re hanging out at home, or whatever. And if you’re just sitting there scrolling on social media and then you don’t want them to go and, and, and scroll on their I iPad or scrolling, whatever, I’m like, then just model the thing that you’re expecting from them. 

[00:10:47] And it’s like, it never occurred to anyone to check in on their own screen habits. I’ve, I see it over and over and over again. And look, the way we talk about it is I’ll say, you know, back in the day, it never occurred to me that maybe I shouldn’t just be like, shooting the shit with my friend when I’m driving with my kids, like when I’m driving with my kids, I’ll have like, that’s a great time to talk to them. Right? It’s, it’s a great time to just listen to music together.

[00:11:20] It’s a, and like it was like when I was really, when I was a young mom, I was just like chatting it up with my friends and then all of a sudden one day I realized it’s kind of rude. Like if you know. Really, it’s just, it, it, it’s kind of rude. So I just started, I started there and I was like, when I’m in the car, I’m just not, I’m not gonna, I’m not chitchatting on the phone with friends when I’m hanging out with my kids or when I’m, when I’m with, I’m gonna be with the people I’m with, right?

[00:11:50] And then that turned into, well, if I don’t want them to come straight home from school and just wanna go, you know, back in the day it was like they wanted to go on Webkins or they wanted to play Wii, you know, like the things that, and so if I don’t want them to just rush into those things right away, then I’m gonna be, I’m gonna be available, you know, just like hanging out in the same room. Even if I’m like doing something else, I’m just there. The minute I find I get on a screen, then they wanna get on a screen too. So if I don’t want them on a screen, I’m just gonna do that. 

[00:12:23] And I don’t think, you know, I think it’s like. Most adults are talking about how worried they are about their kids being on screens too much, but they’re not necessarily evaluating their own screen usage. What are your thoughts about that? 

[00:12:38] Ash Brandin: Well, there’s, yeah, there’s a lot in there. What I think is really interesting is, what I think is sort of silently implied, but people aren’t always necessarily aware of, is that when they say something like that, they’re worried about their kids’ screen usage, but not necessarily about their own. That I think, implies that the, the child screen usage is being seen as basically leisure based, 

[00:13:06] and an adult screen usage is being seen as non leisure based. 

[00:13:13] And both of those are very broad blanket statements, neither of which is entirely true. But it, I, a lot of, I think our difficulty with treating technology with a moral neutrality, which is something I advocate a lot for, is that we are very quick to see screen-based leisure as having validity like other forms of leisure.

[00:13:42] So, you know, if my kid wanted to go play soccer at the soccer field. We would probably be like, oh yeah, that’s great. They’re getting outside, they’re playing with people. But if they then came home because it was dark and they then hopped onto FIFA Soccer with those same kids, we would not think of that as being like as good big air quotes here as good a leisure activity. But leisure, we don’t need to be like kind of moralizing, different forms of leisure with this like productivity hierarchy. Right? Like leisure is valuable. 

[00:14:19] And I think we’re also naming, which is true that a lot of the time when an adult is using their phone, most of the time it isn’t for a leisure. And I, I sometimes think about, you know, going to the park, as you mentioned. If it were 30 years ago and a parent were sitting on the park bench while their kid was playing and that adult were going through the mail and clipping coupons and writing down the grocery list, I don’t think people would’ve really batted an eye at that. But now if that same adult is sitting on a bench and they are opening up their grocery app and they are clipping digital coupons and they’re making a pickup order so that they can go pick up groceries and spend more quality time with their children, we are, I think, quicker to go like, Ugh, there, there’s that parent just on their phone all the time. 

[00:15:17] There is an incredible amount of domestic and invisible labor that lives on phones, and so sometimes if I do want to prioritize the time in which I am with my child, like physically, that also may mean that I am having to use the times in which they may be otherwise occupied to attend to the needs of my household. And a lot of those needs, they can get done on a device. 

[00:15:44] So the, the modeling that you speak of, one of the aspects of modeling I think is really, really helpful is to actually name what you’re doing. Because kids rightfully, they see us on a de device and they assume it’s leisure because it is leisure for them, right? They’re not yet managing a household and they shouldn’t be. But, so if they see us pick up a device, they may associate it with leisure and also with like the sort of off limits nature that it is for them. 

[00:16:12] But if I pick up my phone and I’m like, Hey, you just grabbed the last Gatorade from the fridge. I am putting Gatorade on our grocery list, otherwise I’m going to forget. Then I’m gonna set my phone down and go back to playing with you. I mean, that’s very different than like, I’m just sort of mysteriously picking it up and looking like I’m preferring it over them. So that modeling might just be like kind of the scripting of what we’re doing and why.

[00:16:36] Randi Rubenstein: That’s so good. No, it’s so good just to, even just to even, because I think we all do assume, I think there is such a, yeah, like there’s, there’s this morality that’s built in that if you see people on their phone, you know, it’s, I, I mean, I don’t know. I, I remember he seeing a thing with Simon sent, Simon Sinek. Do you know that guy who

[00:17:04] has the Yeah. Like, he, he has a really famous TED Talk and he was talking about how like if you go into a business meeting and you, they’ve done studies and if you put your phone even on the conference table, even face down, that sends the people a message that you’re not fully present.

[00:17:26] Because if somebody wants to, you know, so I do think there’s been a lot of morality wrapped up. In the phone, but I think you bring up such a simple concept. It’s communication. It’s you’re hanging out with your kid and you’re like, you’re like, oh, I gotta do the grocery list real quick. Wait, okay. I know we’re at a Gatorade. I’m just gonna do this real quick. Oh, hang on. Let me just put this grocery order in. Just tell ’em. Just tell ’em what you’re working on. Yeah. 

[00:17:57] Ash Brandin: Or, or like sometimes I’ve gotten like a text from, you know, a, a, a friend of my child’s adult, right? And I’m like, oh, your friend’s mom just texted me. I’m gonna text her back. ’cause we’re trying to fig, you know, you asked to play with them. We’re figuring out our schedules. Then I’ll go back to that. Right. Just sort of naming. 

[00:18:16] And also because otherwise a lot of that labor is like further invisible to our kids. So even thinking about sort of all of the skills embedded within that of like the labor, executive functioning, all of that kind of thing, it is good for them to see that. And there are lots of kind accommodations that live in our phones, like reminders and lists and if we’re utilizing those, I think 

[00:18:39] that’s also important to name right of 

[00:18:42] Randi Rubenstein: I love alerts. 

[00:18:43] Ash Brandin: There’s been times in the car where I am like remotely telling Siri, like, put this on my reminders for tomorrow. And it so that I don’t forget, I’m sort of modeling how I’m using that technology to accommodate myself in that moment. And, and doing it in a way that’s sort of transparent. 

[00:19:03] And I have to just say that anecdote about the boardroom, that can only be said by a non-default parent. Can you imagine like, the, if a default parent or someone that was like read as a woman came in there and had her phone on the thing because her kid had a 99 degree fever this morning, and now she’s waiting for the call for school and all these men are standing, sitting there thinking that she’s not committed to the company. Like, whew. There’s just a lot to unpack in there.

[00:19:31] Randi Rubenstein: So, it’s so true. And you know, the other thing I was thinking and I know, I’ve seen, I wanna even say I remember my husband doing this, ’cause he loves to, he’s a real estate guy and so he’ll do it to me, will be driving around and he’ll say, will you, will you grab my phone and, you know, send me an email or do a thing and say that the lights are out at 42 0 4.

[00:20:01] You know, like, and so it’s work stuff. And he’s done that with our kids too. And so I’m thinking, you know, how about if your kids are old enough and they love screens and you’re driving and you’re like, Hey, will you, you know, will you play assistant for a little bit, while we’re driving? Let’s figure, will you jot down this grocery list? Or will you hold the phone up so that you know, I can tell Siri whatever, whatever. Like, you can also include your kid and use them, you know, do it together, you know, and, and give them some purpose, which kids love that kind of stuff.

[00:20:37] Ash Brandin: Yeah. And if you have things in place that you’re trying to do for yourself, like, this is true for me, of, you know, times that you’re trying to have it away. or for me, like on my, on the weekend, I jo I call it by stab a setting for the phone that I have, it turned, it like turns itself to a very different setting on the weekend. I see far fewer apps. It’s kind of this reminder to myself that like, that stuff can generally wait. And that’s also things to name and to just. make clear of like, oh, this is a way that I do, I try to make it easier to be present and remind myself that, you know, all the work will wait and my jobs to be here with you. 

[00:21:20] Because you know, eventually our kids are going to have these things. Right. Kind of going back to what we were talking about before, we’re not going to send our kids into a world where we can really unring that bell, right? We’re not going to send them into a world where it’s even possible, let alone practical, to kind of exist without a smartphone like anymore. There are basically a utility, right? Like there are many parts of life that are all kind of inaccessible without them, I don’t like that, but it’s kind of the reality.

[00:21:51] Randi Rubenstein: Let me tell you my, my, my 19-year-old son who’s a sophomore in college right now, ever since the summer he’s been, he put himself on a flip phone experiment. We’re calling it the flip phone experiment because he. He had been having a hard time for the last several years. It was, it’s TikTok. And he would uninstall it. He would reinstall it. He would uninstall it. But then he found himself just going to Instagram and he is like, so I’m just using Instagram reels and it’s not even as good as TikTok. 

[00:22:23] And I’m like, no, Tik. I mean, I think TikTok has the best audience. Like, I think those people, the comments on TikTok, I think those people, I think they are so hilarious. My daughter’s like, yeah, no, it’s all about like, I was like, why do people on TikTok have the best senses of humor? Like it just, I, the vibe on there, so good. He’s like, right. So now I’m just on Instagram, which is not even as good a version, but I’m still doing the same thing. And so he went, he decided I’m just gonna go son’s smartphone and go to a flip phone.

[00:22:54] So he’s been using a flip phone and it’s been an really interesting experiment. But I will tell you. It was, well, he used his phone for Apple Maps or Google Maps, like how do you get, you know, so, so how is he going to get places in his car? He is used, you know, there’s no maps program. He didn’t have a built-in navigation 

[00:23:15] in the car. 

[00:23:16] Ash Brandin: right. So many things. Your 

[00:23:18] Randi Rubenstein: Spotify, I mean, yes, yes. Spotify. He was like, how do I listen to my music? He had to buy this little extra device thing. It was like he had kept having to buy all these different devices

[00:23:29] because it was so much less convenient. And it’s been a really interesting, I mean, we take it for granted, but, but smartphones are super efficient.

[00:23:40] Ash Brandin: Right. Well, and and that’s kind of baked into the design too. Like I had a thread like the, you know, the Instagram Twitter equivalent go unbelievably viral because everyone, every pretty frequently on there, I will see people saying like. We need to bring back iPods and I’m like, iPods exist. MP three players cost like $35.

[00:23:59] These still, these tech, the hardware is not the problem. The infrastructure is the problem.

[00:24:04] Like good luck trying to own physical media. And by physical I mean like just anything you can own. Like I know an MP three is not physical, but you get what I mean. and people would completely kind of miss the point and be like, you can get an external drive and you can get CDs from the secondhand store, from the library and you can rip them and then you just transfer the files.

[00:24:25] I’m like, you are missing my point because my point is what you’re talking about of like, it, it has to be accessible. It has to be simple, it has to be sustainable. And thinking about, you know, my own child, like a lot of we kids consume media differently than we did, right? My kid, the music my kid wants to listen to, a lot of it is like things that.

[00:24:50] Are not even possible to own. Right. It’s like things that might be in YouTube videos or it’s like background music and there’s not a CD of that. Right. And even if there is, it’s like, yeah, it’s just not practical in the same way. And I’m like, well, what am I supposed to do? Teach my kid how to like pirate music and download this and use five attachments to get it onto this piece of physical hardware for what?

[00:25:15] Right. It just feels like, again, we’re trying to recreate this sort of nossal, the thing we have nostalgia for, but it’s just, it’s just not the same world. And like your son was experiencing, I’m really, I was fascinated to hear how that was going for him because Yeah, there’s just, there’s a lot you just can’t access in the world anymore.

[00:25:36] We were somewhere where they had, QR codes from menus, which again. Don’t, don’t love really, really don’t love it. I understood it during COVID, but now I’m like, please just give me a paper menu. And we were, we were somewhere where they had a QR code for the menu and I, I had left my, we were at a hotel, I had left my phone in the room and I was like, I don’t have a phone.

[00:25:56] And they were like, we don’t have a paper copy. Like, they just did not have another option. And I, that’s a very small example, but it’s like, okay, going to the airport and 

[00:26:07] Randi Rubenstein: Yes. Going to the airport, yes, that’s yes.

[00:26:11] Ash Brandin: A lot of like teen parents. It’s like, okay, well I don’t wanna give my kid a bunch of cash. I don’t wanna give my kid a credit card ’cause they could lose it.

[00:26:18] Okay. That’s kind of the purpose of digital wallets. I can give my kid a digital wallet with a set spending limit. I can set them up with a card that TE texts me. If they try to send spend more than a certain amount of dollars, they could have their boss pass on there. They can have their ID on there.

[00:26:33] Some apartment buildings use phones as an access to the building, right? So that you’re not losing a physical key. Some jobs have you clock in with your smartphone. So you know, it’s seeking that like past version. It’s just, it’s just not the world that we live in anymore. It’s

[00:26:52] Randi Rubenstein: such a good, It’s such a good point. And it’s, and you know, he, I’m gonna have him on the podcast ’cause I, I said to him, I, I want us to break down this experiment because I’m not even sure that it has accomplished what he was hoping it would accomplish.

[00:27:09] Ash Brandin: Hmm. 

[00:27:11] Randi Rubenstein: It’s very, yeah. He was saying to me, we were kind of breaking it down recently and because he still has an iPad, because he needs to, he does a lot of his work on it.

[00:27:21] Right. And so, and he takes it to class and whatever. So he still has an iPad. Well, since he has an iPad, he’s like, okay. So I kept Instagram on the iPad because it’s not with me all the time. It felt like, okay, I’d have to be actually at home, whatever. He goes, but then I’ll find myself, I keep finding myself. Like the last few mornings I wasn’t feeling great. I woke up and I rotted on Instagram in the bed,

[00:27:52] Ash Brandin: huh.

[00:27:54] Randi Rubenstein: and you know, and so I was like, I think this is gonna be an interesting thing to unpack because it’s like he wasn’t feeling that great. He was a little under the weather. He was kind of dreading getting up and going to this class.

[00:28:05] It’s getting towards the end of the semester. It was like Monday through Thursday class eight to 12. It was like a part-time job

[00:28:11] kind of class. It was awful.

[00:28:13] And 

[00:28:13] Ash Brandin: does sound awful. 

[00:28:14] Randi Rubenstein: yeah, it’s awful. And so it’s like towards the end he was a little sick. He was feeling a little yuck. And you know, we started talking about like, you know, when you know, he was like, yeah, and then I get up and I rot on Instagram, and so I still have that in me.

[00:28:33] Like why am I making that choice? You know? It was an

[00:28:36] interesting. Like it was. And that’s, and, and that, and, and maybe this will even segue into, I wanna hear your thoughts on that,

[00:28:44] but I loved how you talked about motivation and intrinsic motivation

[00:28:49] and like, that was so interesting and I, I wanted to learn more about that.

[00:28:55] Yeah.

[00:28:55] Ash Brandin: yes. Okay. Well, before I forget where my brain wants to go, and I do, and I talk about this in my book, in the chapter about like w. You know, potentially, problematic relationships with video games. ’cause that’s a thing that a lot of people are like, my kid is addicted. and what you were just bringing up, sometimes it’s actually my kid is very motivated and those are not always the same thing.

[00:29:20] but one of the things that, I was reading about when I was doing research for the sort of problematic relationship chapter was thinking about, okay, like if, if your son were here, I would ask when you are, when he’s like, engaging with TikTok, with Instagram, et cetera, like what is it doing for him?

[00:29:43] Like, why is, what is the, what is the need that it is filling? And I mean like the psychological need. and sometimes depending on like what the media is that someone wants to engage with, sometimes it might be like a. I am a young kid and I spend all day being told what to do and where to go and stand here and put your name on this and don’t do that, and stop touching them.

[00:30:07] And I get home and all I wanna do is feel in control, right? So that kid is going to want to feel like they’re in control, they’re calling the shots, and nobody’s gonna tell ’em they’re doing something wrong. And yeah, they’re probably gonna wanna play Minecraft, right? Because that’s an environment where they can feel that.

[00:30:27] But that doesn’t mean that that kid is like addicted to Minecraft. It could mean that that kid is seeking autonomy. And if I’m able to view it that way, that is completely different, right? If I look at my kid and go, oh, they really, they just need a chance to like decompress and not get like corrected and feel in control.

[00:30:49] I can help them. 

[00:30:51] Randi Rubenstein: I wanna say I, ’cause I, I, I I think that’s, it’s so good and it’s so true. And it’s also, like I was talking, my 27-year-old, I have a, my oldest son is 27 years old and I was talking and he, he’s the video game. He loves video games. My husband also loves video games, and we won’t even talk about how old he is, but I, he, I love that he kind of loves video games.

[00:31:16] ’cause I

[00:31:16] think it’s really cute. And I think that, I mean, he just, he just gets so much joy out of playing his little video games. So anyway, my son also loves to play video games and and I was asking him recently, what do you love so much about it? And, and he said. You know, I’m really good at it.

[00:31:36] Ash Brandin: Yeah.

[00:31:37] See? 

[00:31:38] Randi Rubenstein: that was it. It was like he was never the kid that was the best at blah, blah, blah sport or you know, but there’s this video game and he plays with all of his friends and it’s his chance and they all live in different cities, you

[00:31:53] know, it’s like friends from college and friends from high school, and they live in lots of different places and he loves getting together with his friends and he’s really good at it.

[00:32:03] And I thought that was so interesting. Anyway,

[00:32:06] sorry to interrupt. 

[00:32:07] Ash Brandin: No, no. I’m so glad you brought that up because yeah, that, that comes up a lot when I’m talking about motivation is, you know, if we, if we actually ask people, like, why do you enjoy the, the games that you enjoy? You know, there are games that are designed in a more extrinsically motivated way, which is more like gambling.

[00:32:24] You know, it’s sort of like log in every day and get a surprise and maybe it’ll be great, right? That’s, that’s different and that is a predatory kind of design. But when it’s things that are more commercial, games you’re paying up front for, you know. If I were to like pay $60 for a Zelda game and then it was constantly like incentivizing me to come back and play more, I would not buy that game, right?

[00:32:49] Like that wouldn’t work and I wouldn’t, I would feel kind of infantalized, right? So a lot of the reasons that people like these things are what is exactly what you’re talking about. They make us feel in control. They make us feel connected to other people, and they make us feel skilled. And that is what’s in psychology called self-determination theory.

[00:33:07] And that’s what supports intrinsic motivation. And that supports intrinsic motivation, whether we’re talking about playing FIFA soccer or regular soccer or baking or embroidery, right? Like you have to enjoy the thing you’re doing and it’s gonna satisfy something for you. And if I notice that my child is really enjoying something with technology and it’s satisfying one or more of those needs, that’s.

[00:33:33] That’s information that can really inform me about my child. And it can also really inform me about like, what other things might they enjoy. If I have a kid who really likes playing something open-ended and freeform, like Minecraft or something strategic, like they’re playing along with friends, well I can find other things in, in their life that might help give them that, that same feeling.

[00:33:57] not because I’m trying to replace it, but because what we don’t want is we don’t want a kid to go, oh, if I want to feel in control, I should play Minecraft. That is the only way I feel in control. If that’s the only way they can feel it, then yes, they’re going to return to it. We don’t want a kid who thinks I’m only good at video games.

[00:34:17] Right? But it’s okay if that’s one part of their lives. But when we’re able to notice, oh, they’re really good at being strategic. They’re really good at being creative. We can help them find other ways of exploring that. And then what they’re learning is like, oh, I thought I was only good at Minecraft. I’m actually really good at being creative.

[00:34:39] And then they’re seeing that they can kind of scratch that itch in more than one way, which is a good like transfer of the skill outside of games 

[00:34:49] I have like a kind of weird relationship with exercise where I did, and I didn’t really. Like, I think a lot of millennials, I had sort of this transactional relationship with it and I had like 

[00:35:02] Randi Rubenstein: Me too, me too. 

[00:35:03] Ash Brandin: Okay. Yeah, I had kind of started hiking a little bit on trails near my house before my child was born. And then when my child was like three months old is when the initial like first Nintendo Switch came into our household. And I was just doing a lot of like sitting around, you know, sitting in naps and, and just being still a lot.

[00:35:27] And I started playing at the time the news Zelda game was Breath of the Wild and you’re doing a lot of just like exploring a map and running around and going up mountains and and I just really enjoyed that aspect of it, of like, I’m gonna go up here. Oh, I’m gonna find this lake. I’m just gonna explore this environment.

[00:35:45] And then when the summer came around I realized that, oh, maybe I can like, explore that similar feeling in the real world and kind of use the hiking habit I had kind of started, and this interest, maybe I can kind of combine them together. And I start, I live in Colorado, so I started doing like summit hiking, like climbing to the top of something.

[00:36:09] And the first time I did that, I was like, on my way up and kind of crested this like ridge and looked over the ridge. And below me was a alpine lake, which is, you know, pretty common in the topography of mountains, but was not something I had like organically discovered before, but I had in that Zelda game.

[00:36:28] And so my first thought was like, oh my God, it’s like, just like in that game, it’s really is like this, right? Like this is, this is really what this looks like. And and if it hadn’t been for that, I wouldn’t, it, it, I wouldn’t have felt as much of a reason to do it. It’s like it kind of gave me an idea of what to expect.

[00:36:46] And do they feel exactly the same? No. No, they don’t. it’s not like when I, you know, run up the mountain in Zelda. I am thinking of that as the same kind of accomplishment, but. Sometimes I can devote most of a day to waking up at 5:00 AM and getting in my car and driving an hour and hiking for three hours and more, more and coming home, right?

[00:37:12] And other times I can’t. But both of those things are giving me a sense of autonomy. I’m in control. I’m the one deciding to do this, and they’re giving me a feeling of self-reliance to a degree. And they’re also giving me a feeling of, of achievement. I saw the thing and I did the thing, and I feel different or better because of it.

[00:37:37] And if I were to view the video game as like a, as a less good version, all that’s gonna do, especially as I’m, if I’m a kid, is kind of make me resentful, right? Of like, I’m not saying they’re exactly the same, I’m just saying I enjoy them both. Right? And as the adult, if I know that my kid enjoys a digital version of something, if that can help them enjoy the real life version. Great. And they can coexist with each other, right? They supplement each other. They don’t need to substitute.

[00:38:09] Randi Rubenstein: Well, it’s like a book in a movie. You know, you can, I mean, just because we’ve read the book doesn’t mean we’re not gonna go see the movie. Chances are we’re gonna go see the movie. And, and it’s so exciting to see the characters that you’ve envisioned and read about what they look like on screen. 

[00:38:29] Right,

[00:38:29] It’s always, it always, to me, it always feels exciting when a book is that you’ve loved is made into a movie. So it’s almost like, it just intensifies the experience, the story. and sometimes the, you know, a lot of times the movie, it doesn’t do justice to the book, right.

[00:38:49] And, and so you might like, like I loved that you were like, yeah, exercise. We have this challenging relationship, but then you’re like experiencing this through the video game, and then when you went and had a 3D real life experience, you’re like, well, this is freaking cool.

[00:39:10] You know, like, it was cool in the video game and this is super cool when you’re experiencing it in real life. And, and so, yeah, I liked that you, like, they can coexist together. I love this. I’ve never thought about it like that. 

[00:39:24] I think it’s, yeah, I, it’s, and I’ve been so guilty of being like, get off the screen, go outside. You know, like when Corey said I was just rotting on Instagram. Well, where do you think he got that language? I mean, 

[00:39:39] Ash Brandin: Well, 

[00:39:39] Randi Rubenstein: to, you know.

[00:39:41] Ash Brandin: that, I mean, raw like that is, I feel like that’s a, like a Gen Z term of like rot, like 

[00:39:46] Randi Rubenstein: Oh, I use that. I, but I, I mean, we’re rotters. We’re we, are we, we are proud rotters in our house. Like we do love to be, you know, like we love to lounge, lizard together. We love to watch. I mean, I’m a big watch movies in bed kind of person. Like, that’s one of my pleasures and joys, you know, and I love to like hole up with them. 

[00:40:08] So, but yeah, I’ve, I’ve definitely taken a moral high ground. and so I, I love that you pointed it out because, you know, sometimes it’s like things are in your blind spot. You can’t even see it until somebody points it out and then you can’t unsee it. And so I just, yeah, like, it’s, it’s, it’s accurate in my life.

[00:40:34] Ash Brandin: You know, when you were talking about with your son and him talking about like, oh yeah, I didn’t feel well and I was like rotting on Instagram before I had to go to this class. I was dreading it. It reminded me well of a couple of things. One of which actually was also related to Zelda, back to like the modeling.

[00:40:49] there was a day where I, I was like, sad. I was like in a funk and I was around my kiddo and I said like, I feel sad. I cannot kick this feeling. I’m gonna play some Zelda. Like I just, maybe it, maybe it’ll help. And I played for like, you know, a chunk of time, 20, 30 minutes and I paused it and said, you know, while I’m playing it, it feels good. And, but I can also tell that like, as soon as I stop, I’m just gonna feel sad again.

[00:41:22] So that means that this was distracting me. And in this case, I don’t really wanna be distracted. I want to actually like work through this feeling because. Otherwise I’m gonna have to play Zelda all day and I can’t do that. So this didn’t help. I don’t really wanna stop, but I think I need to try something else.

[00:41:40] So I’m gonna pause and I’m gonna go for a walk and I don’t really wanna go for a walk, but I need to do something else to try to address this feeling. So it was like just modeling, like the emotional regulation and also naming that, you know, sometimes if I am at work and I get terrible news, I might need a temporary distraction to get through the rest of my day and be functional.

[00:42:06] And so maybe I am gonna, you know, pull up TikTok to try to kind of get my brain back online, even if for a few minutes where I’m going to go if I, if I can’t sleep one night, if I, it wouldn’t do me any good if I was like, well, I can’t get an extra latte today. ’cause that’s a short term solution. It’s like, well, yeah, but also it’s like. It sounds silly then, right? But it, I think it’s knowing that there are different purposes for these things.

[00:42:36] There’s a, there’s a fitness influencer that I stole a trick from, which I used today actually with my lunch, where he talks about pairing what you want, with what you need. and in his case, he was trying to like, eat a certain amount of protein. So he was crumbling, double stuffed Oreos into plain Greek yogurt. He was pairing his wants and his needs. And so I think about something like that where it’s like, okay, if I were not feeling well and I woke up and I knew I have a four hour class to go to, yeah. None of nothing about that is motivating.

[00:43:09] Randi Rubenstein: Mm-hmm.

[00:43:09] Ash Brandin: That sounds awful. And what if I on my walk across campus, what if I scrolled TikTok on my way across campus? 

[00:43:22] You know, because. I think we can go to an unintentional place of scarcity mindset with technology of like, I don’t wanna be preoccupied. I don’t want my kid to get obsessed, so I’m going to limit it as much as I possibly can.

[00:43:37] But we know, especially from like food, as many of us were raised in like the eighties and nineties, when we moralize food, when we put food up on a pedestal, when we do that with anything, it can have the opposite effect. It can make us preoccupied with that thing. And then the message we get from that is, as I, as I was hearing some of what your son was saying was like, I’m the problem, right?

[00:43:58] Like, I don’t know what’s wrong with me. I don’t know why I keep wanting this. Well, it could be many things. It could be because it’s hard to get outta bed when you don’t feel good, and it’s hard to go to a non-preferred task. And also it’s hard when you try to put something off limits that you enjoy.

[00:44:15] So obviously if someone’s trying to like completely remove something from their life. They can choose to do that, right? There are times that’s appropriate and sometimes maybe it’s, I wanna find a way for this to fit in my 

[00:44:28] life. So there’s definitely times where I am like, okay, I need like five minutes to scroll my phone because it’s just, that’s just, it’s been a day and I need it. But I know if I like sit on the couch, it’ll become 25 minutes.

[00:44:44] So, like the, the other day my spouse walked into our closet and I was literally lying on the 

[00:44:49] Randi Rubenstein: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

[00:44:51] Ash Brandin: and my spouse was like, are you okay? And I was like, I’m fine. I’m lying on the floor because I know that I can’t lie here for 25 minutes, right? Like, I’ll lie here for five minutes and then I’ll move because this is not, I can’t lie here for that long.

[00:45:05] So I put myself in a position where I was like, I can only do this for five minutes, or, yes, I’ll scroll my phone as I walk to this class because then I get to class and I have to put the phone away and there’s like a built in thing that’s gonna limit it.

[00:45:19] Randi Rubenstein: That the, the way you were talking about all of this, what just came to me, and I hope I can articulate it, is it’s such a richer conversation than about giving your kid the right thing with the right, you know, look, parental restrictions and all that stuff, I think is, I think is necessary. I think it’s great.

[00:45:43] I think it’s, I wish, like we, I was saying at the beginning, Silicon Valley would, you know, there would, the government would start to put some controls on Silicon Valley and, and make our lives easier. I do think all that stuff is necessary, but it’s deeper. This is really about understanding human behavior rather than judging. Judging human

[00:46:12] behavior, let’s work with ourselves. Let’s have a deeper conversation about habits and needs and why we do a thing. this feels like, like I love that you have some, I mean, you’re teaching parents, like you gave a lot of resources towards the end of the book. it’s funny, we have a framework called the same thing, which like, I’m sorry, that I, I was like, how, what are the odds of that?

[00:46:40] Ash Brandin: That’s funny.

[00:46:42] Randi Rubenstein: and my hunch is, is that you named it that kind of tongue in cheek, like I named it that, you know, just like parents are always telling their kids to be nice, but it’s like, and then they’re like, are how nice are you being? You know, like,

[00:46:55] Ash Brandin: sure.

[00:46:57] Randi Rubenstein: but I think that, yeah, like, like let’s figure out. We’re always just trying to get a need met, and I love how you provided resources towards the end because it really was about conversations and boundaries and how to have those conversations and, and some examples of what a conversation might look like and real stories from your own life. Like I loved the story of you driving through this sort of, you know, sketchy drive.

[00:47:30] And I, I could imagine myself, it’s like one of those white knuckle grip drives, like through the mountains and bad weather and your kids on the iPad, you’re like, okay, I’m gonna plug ’em in on the iPad. I’m gonna be white knuckling it. And then next thing you know, your kid’s like needing your assistance,

[00:47:48] Ash Brandin: Right,

[00:47:49] Randi Rubenstein: right?

[00:47:50] Ash Brandin: right. And I can’t get mad at them for that because like of course, like I hadn’t done it. Like I hadn’t thought about how to set us up for success beforehand. Right. And, but I think a lot of caregivers feel like, well, I’ll utilize that if I really, really, really have to, like as a sort of third rail.

[00:48:06] And then if it doesn’t like immediately kind of, I. Make everything infinitely easier, then I think we’re sort of like, oh, a little like grumpy. Like what do you mean you should be grateful I’m letting you do this. This just, this was supposed to be the magic bullet. What do you mean? It has its own set of problems?

[00:48:26] Right? But yeah, when you brought that up, I was thinking, oh yeah, like the drives to the mountains. ’cause even now, like we’re probably gonna go to the mountains pretty soon. It’s winter. and I literally will like time when my kid can have some screen time when we start driving up this like particular mountain pass. ’cause I’m like, I, I need, I need to be fully focused on keeping us safe. 

[00:48:50] Like right now my focus is going on the car and the road and all of us staying safe. And so that’s my need. And what I really like about the thinking about like the need is that the need includes you, like the need includes the adult.

[00:49:06] And that doesn’t mean my need is superseding. Right. But it is including me. ’cause if I think about only the need of one person, like I think when we think about kids in screen time, we’re often thinking about, oh well they need to have as little as possible. It’s like, right, but if you cannot get your needs met because we live in systemic inequity.

[00:49:27] Right? Back to what we were saying at the beginning, if, if utilizing a screen for a set amount of time with content that works for your child is going to make you a better caregiver who can then put their own device down and be more present, that is a benefit to your kid and it’s a benefit to you. And it’s way more sustainable than trying to abstain for as long as possible and then giving in and then feeling like it didn’t work and kind of this like, you know, fits and starts and then you just feel guilty about it.

[00:49:56] Right? Like that’s not helpful to 

[00:49:57] Randi Rubenstein: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah, I know. I mean, I think that, like when you talk, I was like, that’s exactly what I used it for. I remember, I always let my kids watch, especially when they were little and I like was making dinner. That was the end of the day. We’d had a whole day. I’m tired.

[00:50:22] I kind of kicked myself later because, you know, I was like, I should have included him more. ’cause then maybe they would’ve learned how to cook and I would’ve had some helpers, but whatever. I was too tired. And that was, I mean, I remember when, when my son Alec was in preschool Tiny, and I would put him, I played this ces like back then it was like VHS tapes.

[00:50:41] I had, I mean, I had like A-V-H-S-S, Sesame Street tape, and I played it like every night. I wanted, I don’t even know, maybe a year. And it was like, I knew exactly how long that tape was. I knew exactly how long I had, I could leisurely make dinner. I could do, you know, I just, I had that time for me and I needed it. 

[00:51:05] I 

[00:51:05] mean, I needed it, you 

[00:51:08] Ash Brandin: Right? And that, and that’s not like a moral failure. Like yeah, you needed it. And in some households maybe that’s not the pain point, right? Maybe there’s two caregivers around during dinner time or what have you. And the pain point is somewhere else. The pain point is when you’re trying to put a sibling down or feed a baby or whatever.

[00:51:27] But that’s why I think it’s so important at the end of the book I, with that framework, is to think about what is the need? Because a need is gonna change. So we don’t need to think like, oh, we have to pick one set of rules for screen time that have to just like be the same forever and has to work forever because your family is gonna change.

[00:51:44] Things are gonna change. It might be like. For a season for years. Like we’re at a point where you mentioned with, you know, kids are getting old enough to help with dinner or do something else during dinner. We’re kind of reaching that point. And if we wanted to, we could say, Hey, why, why? Why don’t we have screen time after dinner and then we could all be involved if we want to.

[00:52:03] And if that works for us, great. But in the meantime, if we, like, if we keep having screen time before dinner, so one of us can be fully focused on making a meal, well if then we’re all sitting down and we’re all present and we’re eating a more nutritionally dense meal, that wouldn’t have been possible. If we have a kid running around under foot because we’re trying not to use a screen, we’re all better off ’cause of that and we’re on like, then the adults are better regulated.

[00:52:30] We’ve had time to decompress. Like that is a benefit. And frankly, that also. Like if that’s sustainable, right? Like if my kid takes from that, that they got some TV time or some video game time while parents made dinner, like I’m fine with that being a thing that they associate. because, because it fits into the rest of our lives, right?

[00:52:53] And it’s something that they can rely on. And also, as you said, it was, it’s something that, that the adult can rely on and know that this is predictable. So it doesn’t feel like it’s a huge, big deal. It’s not being elevated and put on a platter. It’s just part of our lives, like other parts of our lives.

[00:53:09] Randi Rubenstein: Mm-hmm. No, I love that. And I love the way you teach and y’all are gonna have to read the book because the way you really lay out, I mean, I talk about. Helping kids to develop agency and taking scarcity out of it. I mean, I teach this a lot of times with homework. When it comes to homework or, you know, or how do you, how do you get your kids to read? 

[00:53:34] mean, you’re an educator, so I’ll tell you, I, I completely bad mouth reading logs. I think they are the, 

[00:53:42] Ash Brandin: I’m prob I’m probably with you on 

[00:53:44] Randi Rubenstein: Yeah, I think they sabotage. I think they make this joy, this pleasure of reading into a chore and it’s like it does. Yes. 

[00:53:53] Ash Brandin: it’s, once again, it’s that extrinsic motivation thing. There’s so much extrinsic motivation and education, and it’s like, this is not gonna make someone wanna do the thing.

[00:54:01] Randi Rubenstein: It does the opposite. it does the opposite, I mean, it does the opposite. So, you know, I, and, and so I really talk a lot about helping kids to develop agency. And I loved the way you laid it out. It was just so real life about homework and screen time and predictability and sort of making it more neutral, just like you would with food.

[00:54:25] Like, I provide the food and then it’s your job to eat it or not to eat it. But the minute we start, we are, we are more invested than our child is. It becomes a power struggle and it gets all wonky, you know? So I love, I love how you taught that in the book.

[00:54:43] Ash Brandin: yes. Well, thank you. and yeah, it’s funny because there is one activity in my child’s life that I really do have to like say like, no, we cannot do that right now. Like, I do have to kind of police it and it’s reading. And most people would hear that and go like, oh, lucky you, right? Feel this sort of like envy.

[00:55:06] Randi Rubenstein: my daughter was like that too. Same? Yeah.

[00:55:08] Ash Brandin: but if, but again, that’s like the moral hierarchy, right? Where it’s like, but the point there is that most people have an activity that is preferable to other things. And so. If one kid, it’s an iPad, and my kid, it’s a book, my kid isn’t better because they’re trying to read constantly than the kid who wants to, you know, be on the iPad constantly.

[00:55:34] My kid isn’t like morally superior with their interest, but it, it’s the same investigation of like, why is it my kid wants to eat, read constantly? Why is it my kid wants to read at the dinner table? Is it because they don’t want to engage in conversation? Is it because they don’t know how? Is it because it’s easier for them to distract while they eat. I mean, that’s all really helpful information, right? That tells me the skill we need to work on. That tells me 

[00:56:01] like where else we can kind of build that in and like, that’s why I think the moral neutrality is so important because if that kid were on an iPad, I think many people and parts of definitely part of me would blame the iPad, 

[00:56:13] right?

[00:56:13] Like it’s, the iPads fall, of course they’re just not paying any attention. But if it’s a book, we’d be like, isn’t that so cute? They just love their book so much. And it’s like, well, if both of those are distracting from listening to your body and telling if you’re full and listening to other people talk, one of those is not better than the other.

[00:56:28] Right,

[00:56:29] Randi Rubenstein: right. 

[00:56:29] No, that’s so, it’s such a good point. And I mean, my daughter will joke. She’s like, yeah, I love when my kids use the term punished, because I never ever said, you’re punished. Like that just wasn’t even in our vocabulary. They’re like, yeah, Avery’s. Like I always joke, yeah. My mom used to punish me by taking away my books.

[00:56:47] I’m like, I. 

[00:56:48] Ash Brandin: Yeah. 

[00:56:49] Randi Rubenstein: I didn’t punish you, and that’s just not even true. She’s like, oh, I remember. And but the, the, it was, it’s like people like, oh, she reads too much. But I knew it was a form of distraction. I knew it was a way that she was checking out. I knew that she was avoiding something else. You know, when she went into her room after a long day of school, and it wasn’t just like an hour to decompress, it was like, you know, three hours later I found her in her bed, still reading. I’m like, this is the extreme. There’s something to deal with. So I’m with you on that. I love it. 

[00:57:23] Yeah. Yeah, 

[00:57:25] Ash Brandin: There’s another thing I was gonna say, but I can’t remember what it was.

[00:57:28] Randi Rubenstein: yeah. No, I mean, and you know, I also think you’re, you’re so attuned to the topic, and I mean, it, I, I love people who are professionals who actually walk. Their talk. And I can tell that this is like, the fact that you even are like, okay, why is he read or what, you know, why is my child reading at the table and what are they avoiding? what could be the reasons? Like my, my oldest son, he went through a period where he was having a hard time socializing and having an appetite. right. And so because socializing and making conversation can sometimes take so much of his bandwidth

[00:58:19] that like, after a long, like, you know, ’cause like when they got to college and they go out and they go out into groups and they’re going out at like eight and nine o’clock to eat and then they’re going out too. He was like a, a lot of times I’ll eat before I go out because it just is a lot for me to be able, like I just lose my appetite.

[00:58:39] Ash Brandin: Mm-hmm.

[00:58:40] Randi Rubenstein: And so, and he was one of those people that was constantly like trying to keep weight on himself. I know it’s like hard to relate to that, but he really want, he didn’t wanna skip a meal. He didn’t wanna skip dinner and he was like,

[00:58:54] so I just eat before I go out with friends because that way I know I will have already eaten the pressure’s off if I don’t feel, if I just feel like socializing and not eating. It’s not a big deal. so I would never have known that I’m not wired in that way.

[00:59:09] But this so interesting to think of a little kid. I mean, I’m sure there’s a lot of people listening and if you have a kid that wants to be on a screen or wants to be reading a book while they’re eating dinner, it could be some kind of coping mechanism for this. It takes a lot for me to sit and to like socialize at the end of a long day, you 

[00:59:32] Ash Brandin: Yeah. Yeah. And that’s, and again, like. Your child discovering that and figuring that out, and then figuring out ways to accommodate that, right? It’s not like he’s saying, I’m not going to see friends, right? Like, he’s not limiting himself, he’s finding ways to accommodate and that is sustainable, right? So how, if, if it’s pointing towards something that maybe we want to get curious about, if, if it leads to a way of figuring out how to manage that thing or accommodate that thing, or adjust, then that’s a, that’s a skill that our kids can take with them.

[01:00:11] And, it’s funny, I joke a lot, well, not even joke, I say a lot that, you know, especially for neurodivergent kids, a lot of them thrive in video game environments. And video game environments are highly, highly, highly accommodated environments. If, if you think about, like, if I forget. Oh, how do I jump? I can hit pause. I can go to a menu. It will show me, it will remind me of my available information. I can’t remember where I’m supposed to be going. I know exactly where the map is. It will tell me where I’m going. I can get a reminder of objectives. I can review my information. If I’m trying to do something really big, often it will like chunk it down into smaller tasks. Like you’re trying to free the princess, first you have to go to this world, right? 

[01:00:59] and if we think about like educational environments. That’s a lot of the common accommodations that we often seek for neuro divergent children is things like chunking, breaking down big tasks, checklists, frequent check-ins, like reminders of like information, like notes, provided notes, and in video games, those things are just built in.

[01:01:21] They’re like a universal accommodation that’s just built into good game design, right? But in a lot of the rest of the world, those things are harder to get, not because they’re not valuable, but because they’re just not as baked in. And so if we see our kid, you know, my kid can never remember where their socks are, but they remember the name of every Pokemon whatever.

[01:01:43] again, when we’re neutral, we can look at that and go, okay, what is it about this that is helping them thrive in this environment? And we can even ask them like, Hey, if you don’t know what to do, what do you do? How do you get information in this game? I can’t remember what to do. What, what should I do?

[01:02:00] and if they know or they tell us, we can ask like, is that helpful? Do you like finding information that way? And that might tell us something that we could bring into the rest of their lives. Like, and then again, we’re kind of neutralizing it and showing them, Hey, this thing that helps you in video games can help you in the rest of your life.

[01:02:19] That doesn’t mean I’m saying video games are better. It’s saying I can learn how to accommodate to help my life like your son was doing.

[01:02:26] Randi Rubenstein: Useful. It’s such a useful, it’s like, it’s like learning through metaphor, right? And so how is this like that? And if we, if we take the judgment out of it and it’s, there’s just useful information here, you know, and if you bring that neutrality in, and I think it can be so hard for so many of us to, to utilize all this valuable information and ways to help our kids to develop skills outside of the video game in real life. If we can stop, you know, making so many moral judgements about the video games, there’s all this useful information. I also think it’s interesting that here you are. The what are, what are you known as? The,

[01:03:15] The the, yeah. The gamer educator. Okay. Here you are. And you’re writing this book that’s so rooted in realism, and yet you have a kid that wants to read too much actual physical books. Not, not even on a kindle 

[01:03:32] Ash Brandin: Well, it depends. They read a lot of, they read a lot of, like digital graphic novels on an iPad because they don’t look good on an e-reader, and I get it. I wouldn’t wanna read a graphic novel on an e-reader 

[01:03:43] Randi Rubenstein: Yeah, 

[01:03:43] Ash Brandin: I mean, 

[01:03:44] Randi Rubenstein: yeah. No, I was envisioning your kid with like an old school book and I’m like, oh, he, so the

[01:03:50] kid with the, so the kid with the green light is over here reading over, over reading. I think that’s pretty ironic. 

[01:03:59] well, this has been a fantastic conversation. Thank you so much. for being here and for the work that you do. It’s so important and helpful for all of us.

[01:04:09] Ash Brandin: Thank you so much for having me. It was such a wonderful conversation.

[01:04:12] Randi Rubenstein: Loved it. Okay, thanks everyone for listening. Have a great week. Bye for now. 

[01:04:16] Thanks for listening today, guys. I hope you picked up some tips, tools, maybe some baby steps for creating more balance and boundaries in your life. And I just wanted to let you know, if you want to continue moving the needle forward in creating this for yourself, having a happier household, I want you to go to my website and check out mastermindparenting.com. We have three beginning programs, and if you need some accountability and more support then please look for the one that would be a good fit for you.

[01:04:50] And, as always, we’re on all the social channels under Mastermind Parenting, on Instagram it’s mastermind_parenting. And, you know, periodically I do pop up on different Instagram lives, Facebook lives where I give you teaching and coaching and I love engaging with you live to help you help your strong-willed kids so that they can feel better, because when they feel better they do better, and I love, love, love getting to know you guys. 

[01:05:24] So thanks for listening. If you like this podcast, please don’t forget to subscribe, rate and review. Super, super appreciative.