337: Better Talking Leads to Better “Other Things”

[00:00:00] Jeff Hittner: I’ve interviewed 200 ambitious dads right around the challenges, the needs, the gaps, the hopes that they have. and I definitely hear a very distinct, vocabulary, a distinct set of fears, a distinct set of everything in comparison to the moms. 

[00:00:19] like it or not, our society places different expectations on moms and dads for parenting to really be a team sport, it’s vital for parents to really see each other and learn to talk productively about what they need from each other.

[00:00:30] Jeff Hittner: I think what our challenge is, is what the kids need most is where women have been better conditioned than us, which is we don’t try to solution everything, right. That we just listen. We fail at that horribly 

[00:00:43] We’re breaking all this down with Jeff Hittner, leadership coach, and host of the Ambitious Dads podcast.

[00:00:48] Randi Rubenstein: My name is Randi Rubenstein, and welcome to the Mastermind Parenting Podcast. At Mastermind Parenting, we’re on a mission to support strong-willed kids and the families that love them. 

[00:00:59] Hi everyone. Welcome to the podcast. This week I am back with Jeff Hittner and we are ready to dig in and have a good conversation, an organic conversation. We were just talking before we started recording and I wanna feature Jeff sort of on a regular basis here on the podcast because I’ve been looking for a resource for dads for years.

[00:01:24] And, so yeah, so that’s what we’re doing this week. So thanks for being back. I’m excited to talk to you.

[00:01:31] Jeff Hittner: it’s my pleasure. I’m excited to be here. I’m excited to lend my voice to, you know, the moms that you have listening, and also some of the dads, and, and also let them know that. I also have a podcast specifically for dads called the Ambitious Dads Podcast, please check that out as well. And I think what I’m most excited about, Randi, as we were just talking about it before we hit record, is just being able to talk about different topics and, and, talk a little bit about how the father, or male is interpreting like the challenge or the situation versus the mom.

[00:02:11] And you know, I can’t speak for all dads by any means, but I’ve, I’ve interviewed 200 ambitious dads right around the challenges, the needs, the gaps, the hopes that they have. and I definitely hear a very distinct, vocabulary, a distinct set of fears, a distinct set of everything in comparison to the moms.

[00:02:35] And I think it’s important there, there, there’s not one that’s by all, by any means, more important than the other. They’re different and, and it would be amazing for us to share like our voices around, how they different and maybe what that could mean for how they co-parent better and how we talk about a whole host of things. So excited to talk about it.

[00:02:56] Randi Rubenstein: Well, it reminds me, I think there’s been several movies about, it’s like the, you know, it was like the movie He’s Not That Into You was one that just, and, it’s the male perspective versus the female perspective. And I know I’m probably not being politically correct and I’m leaving out, this is all heteronormative, but, again, anyone who listens to this podcast, I’m hoping is just gonna give me a hall pass and some grace and know that, I really am an inclusive person. 

[00:03:31] So wherever you identify and in your relationship, a lot of times we just take on traditional roles. I mean, I’ve even seen this in gay female couples, where one of the, one of the parents is more sort of the stereotypical masculine role and, you know, so I, so anyway, I’m just gonna say to all of the people listening, please, give me a little grace when I talk about this.

[00:04:03] But yeah, we were, we were talking about a scenario, and I was describing a dad who the, mom is sort of the main pack leader in the family, and she’s, doing, you know, all the invisible parenting jobs or a lot of them, right. And the caring and the feeding and the, all of that, the coordinating and the permission slip signing and the school forms.

[00:04:32] And, and then mom was outta town for a couple of weeks and on an international trip and, like visiting her grandmother and so with the rest of her family. So it was like she was across the world. Dad really stepped up to the plate. And something that we noticed was that when dads really stepped into that pack leader role, which we knew he was super capable of, so many issues with the child sort of became non-issues. He, like he was a, he, and, it’s not to say that mom wasn’t a brilliant pack leader too, but dad brought something different. And, and like the child was just thriving. 

[00:05:21] And we talked about how when mom came back, how do you, guys integrate mom back into the equation? But you still stay in this role, right? Where you guys are doing this together because clearly your kid is thriving with you in this pack leader role. And I said, and you know, he got a little lazy and was just like, eh, and sort of forgot to be in that role. And you, very politely called me out on, you know, I def I was defining it as lazy. And you were describing something totally different that I thought was really interesting. So if you’ll like share that, that would

[00:06:09] Jeff Hittner: Yeah, I mean, it was a couple of things, right? One, it’s, I think in, again, this is a generalization, but men, it’s particularly in their households, it’s pretty easy for them to, to look and say, you know what? Like, someone is already doing this in front of me, and therefore like, I’m going to step back ’cause I don’t wanna compete on it. Or it’s already being done well. 

[00:06:36] It’s sort of the same thing that happens at work, right? So I’m, I’m also a, a, a leadership expert and an executive coach. And I see this, we call it, you know, you have a manager of, of really high potential staff and all of a sudden the staff aren’t doing well and it’s because the leader is micromanaging or is over controlling different things. And then you see these same staff go report under someone else who is fantastic at letting go, fantastic at empowering, and they just start to excel. 

[00:07:09] And so, I don’t want to to blame like, you know, the person who isn’t lifting up a finger. which isn’t to say that the partner in, in this case, the mom doesn’t have a right to be frustrated, but it’s to say that there’s a lot of dynamics going on here, right?

[00:07:29] There’s, and, and some of it is just innate, like, you know. I remember for the longest time, my wife would just clean the kitchen and she would do it extensively and I would make the majority of dinners, but she would always clean the kitchen. She would, and it would take longer ’cause I’d make big messes when I cook. And, I thought nothing of it because she cleaned and I cooked and like, it just, that just seemed to be okay. Right. 

[00:08:00] But part of it was she wasn’t offering space for me to also clean. She sort of went in and did it right away. And, that’s the same idea that like if you are telling me right, that, I would like you to play a role in this, or I would like you to lead this, that’s very different than just expecting me to jump in while you’re already doing the work. Especially when we’re all exhausted all the time from the 50 things we’re doing. 

[00:08:29] And that’s also true at the office. So, at work. We have to, what I tend to do is look at, people’s patterns, right? So usually there’s a pattern underneath about this feeling, especially if, if letting go is hard. This feeling that like, if I don’t own something, I’m, I’m, I’m not as important as I want to feel. If I, if I don’t own something, it won’t turn out as well. There’s a, there’s a bunch of sort of, hidden assumptions and commitments that people have. 

[00:09:02] And so it’s not as easy necessarily as a behavior change, but it’s a conversation that can start with like, not coming from this, the place where you’re both resenting each other, like, this person is lazy and or this person won’t gimme a chance. It’s coming from a place of like, my perspective is X and my perspective is y.

[00:09:25] Randi Rubenstein: Do you think though? I’m just like thinking about in my own life. so if you have. You know, like, like I know I have a rejection thing deep inside of me, and so anytime I think I’m gonna get overly criticized or rejected in some way, or my efforts are gonna be rejected, sometimes I’ll just opt out. A lot of times I’ll opt out. So me and my husband will have that dynamic. And we’ve been, you know, I’ll notice it in even the tiniest of ways where he’s a, I call him the over-functioner. Like he just does a lot of things really well. 

[00:10:09] Okay, here’s an example. Just the other night we’re watching, I, got him into the Gilded Age. I’m rewatching the Gilded Age. He wasn’t interested when I was first watching it, but now there’s been enough people talking about it that he’s like, okay, I’ll watch it. So we’re into the Gilded Age and all of our kids had just left from Thanksgiving break. We have our house back to ourselves ’cause we’re in that stage of life. So I was like trying, you know, I was like, we were binging the Gilded Age and he did some laundry and he comes and he puts it on the bed and I was like, oh, I’ll help him fold the laundry. 

[00:10:47] And so I go and I start folding it, and then I see out of the corner of my eye, I look and I said, are you refolding? The things that I just folded. And he started cracking up. And he’s like, well, it’s just, yeah, I like my underwear folded a very certain. And I was like, okay, fine. Forget it, you know? And so then he, and he’s happy to just do it, but there’s lots of things where when I go and try and help, he’s got his way. He’s very specific about it. And so what that looks like is a lot of times I just don’t even offer because I feel rejected when I don’t fold his underwear the right way. Or when I don’t clean. 

[00:11:39] And, so I’m wondering, is it male, female or is it really more just like understanding sort of the parts of all of us that, like the wounded parts, like I bring, not everyone brings the wounded, rejected part maybe to the degree that I do. And so is it like understanding what your parts are, maybe your partners? Like isn’t this all self-awareness and awareness of others?

[00:12:07] Jeff Hittner: I think so. I, I don’t think it has to be male, female, and I also, I think that we all, again, especially since when we’re in the middle of it with a bunch of kids, messy life, messy house, trying to do everything, you know, balance a million things. If we’re gonna do something and the person that we’re sharing our life with is going to redo it, like that’s a quick lesson that I’m not, not bother anymore.

[00:12:33] So there can be a rejection piece in it, but I think there’s also a, like, let’s keep some emotional energy for something else if I’m not gonna be appreciated for this. But the challenge is if we don’t have a conversation, we’re gonna have resentment, right? And so, simple conversations can be great. 

[00:12:50] And, you know, we, in your, in your husband’s case, I mean, the, the fact that he needs his underwear folded in a very specific way, you know, might not be the best use of his energy. Right? And, but that also takes like intentional change. You know, we have a cleaning woman who comes once a week. And so what does that mean? I get the house messier and messier as we get closer to that day. My wife gets the house cleaner and cleaner.

[00:13:23] And for me, like that’s completely illogical, right? And it’s totally different approaches to the same goal. And so having a conversation is absolutely essential because otherwise we’re really just sort of annoying each other.

[00:13:39] Randi Rubenstein: Well, and as far as like, you know, saying that the dad was being a little lazy, you know, I think it’s a little lazy to even call the, his behavior lazy when chances are there’s some, even though, you know, he was very capable and willing to be at the helm when she was outta town, and he did an excellent job.

[00:14:04] If when she’s back, she’s going back to all the new ways that, all the old ways that she typically does it. And he’s not really, you know, he, doesn’t maybe have the emotional bandwidth to say, well, when you were gone, I did this, or I handled this and he really responded well to it, or We didn’t have the power struggles over this.

[00:14:29] why don’t you let me handle this thing? Or what if we, you know, watch how I do it? Because he was really receptive. I think a lot of times it’s, you know, you might be worried that’s gonna open up, you know, Pandora’s box of. I did it for however many years without you here, and now you’re saying that wasn’t, you know, like maybe it’s also trying to avoid a potential conflict, so you just opt out and don’t even wanna go there,

[00:14:59] Jeff Hittner: There’s a ton of reasons. Maybe you don’t want your partner to feel like hurt. Maybe they’re very sensitive to the effort that they put into parenting right there. There could be a, just a million different reasons not to speak up. and, I, and again, I think, identifying like, it’s, it’s how you approach the conversation, right?

[00:15:24] So if the conversation is we had an incredible couple of weeks together while you’re away, do you want to hear about some of the interesting things that worked while we were gone as opposed to saying like, here’s some things that work and therefore we should change it, right? Because we know that’s not the best way to engage with, with anyone, right?

[00:15:47] It’s just to say, from my experience, this is what happened. And then, you know, in, in this example, the wife could be like, Hmm, that’s interesting. And then maybe she offers for him to continue with some of those things as opposed to saying. I’m gonna continue doing those things. and so again, that’s the balance that comes with knowing your partner and knowing how the best way to approach change, especially around parenting. And it’s complicated because each couple is, is, is quite different in terms of their responsiveness.

[00:16:22] Randi Rubenstein: Well, I think also, like if I go back to my productive conversation framework and we look at that scenario, I think it’s approaching the conversation from the other person’s perspective. You’re gonna get way more buy-in. So if the husband were to say something like, you know, out of the moment, you know, let’s just say he’s noticing that the morning is seeming crazy and she, the kid won’t get dressed and he’s being all picky about what she, you know, he’s having for breakfast. And it’s just thing after thing.

[00:16:55] You know, knowing timing is important. So when you’re in one of those stressful moments, nobody’s in their thinking brain. Nobody can hear you, you know, it’s very emotional. And so out of the moment saying something like, you know, when you were gone, it really was a reality check on how much you have handled that I wasn’t even aware of.

[00:17:19] Like, I mean, the first mornings when you were gone, it, what, you experienced this morning. And I saw those little, you know, and how you kind of helped him not to go full blown meltdown. And you were like, it went full blown meltdown. And I was like, oh my gosh, how does she do this? And, But like by the end of the first week, what I realized was, oh, when I allow him to have a little more agency, when I give him more responsibilities, ’cause you know, he’s such a strong-minded little guy. Like he was rising to the occasion and it was almost like the less I did, the more he was capable of doing

[00:18:01] Jeff Hittner: So that’s a perfectly framed, by the way, that’s like a, a perfectly framed conversation, but while you’re saying it, I’m thinking in my like male dad brain, honestly, I’m 

[00:18:11] Randi Rubenstein: yeah. I wanna hear.

[00:18:13] Jeff Hittner: There is no way. That’s the first thing that bubbles up outta my mouth because I am so proud of what I did for those two weeks while you’re away. Like instead of beginning the conversation with, I could see like all the effort you put in, the first thing I’m gonna wanna say is you have no idea how well it went with, you know, Jimmy, for the two weeks you were gone. We did this, we did this. I didn’t have any problems. Like there’s this like, grand desire to, to almost brag about how well some things went. And of course, also talk about how poorly some other things went. 

[00:18:51] But this also goes back to the other challenge that dads have is they don’t have a lot of other dads to talk to about this stuff. So that bragging piece, which would’ve been a lot more productive and useful in front of other men, instead gets put in front of your wife or the spouse. Right. And as a result, like you tell me what’s the mom gonna feel when the first thing that comes outta my mouth is bragging?

[00:19:19] Randi Rubenstein: She’s like, welcome to my world. You did it for two weeks. I’ve been doing it for, you know, 347 weeks. Right?

[00:19:28] Jeff Hittner: Exactly. And it was never the intention when it came out of his mouth to like undermine her effort. It was the excitement that he felt from that success. And

[00:19:40] Randi Rubenstein: Well, I would push back on that. I would push back on that because the excitement he feels to me feels like a little bit of proving energy. Like, so it’s, I need to prove to you that I can do this. I need, I’m really wanting some pats on the back. I really need that. And to me that feels like, yeah, if you’re a kid, if you grew up with conditioning where everything was about being externally validated, if you got the grade, then you got.

[00:20:20] The love and acceptance and pats on the back. If you didn’t get the grade or you didn’t get the achievement, then you’re nothing, you know, or love was withheld, or people were really disappointed in you. You know, it’s like, I think so many of us were not raised with a growth mindset. We were raised with a fixed mindset.

[00:20:39] So to me, when all that, you know, see see, I can do it. I did it like please celebrate me. It’s a little graspy and it’s a little privy and it always causes the other person. Whenever you sense that energy, whether it’s from a spouse, whether it’s from a friend, something about it doesn’t pass the smell test and people are instantly defensive.

[00:21:03] Jeff Hittner: Yes. And what’s also interesting is, I’ll tell you to, what comes up for me when you say that is actually a different thing as a guy. It is that, you know, through all of my research, one of the biggest things that popped up was how low our self-confidence is as fathers, right? We have this huge Desi, we, we identify first and foremost as fathers, but when we look at.

[00:21:31] Our self-confidence. Only a third of dads think they’re doing a good job. That’s a huge gap, right? and so part of it may be related to like early childhood improving, but part of it is just like I have so little confidence and it went well, and like I’m trying to build it up and like, I need, I need to tell someone, right?

[00:21:53] So again, just coming from different perspectives on this, it is saying 20 different things and we’re hearing 20 different things, whether we are, you know, the, the feminine parent or the masculine parent in this scenario.

[00:22:08] Randi Rubenstein: Well, and this is, I think if you are like, if the relationship is sort of, I don’t wanna offend the other person, am I getting this right? Like if there is a lack of self-confidence on either part, and I think in parenting. Most people are worried like, am I screwing this up? Are they gonna be on a therapist?

[00:22:31] You know? So I think it is hard to be confident, as a parent because we, get it wrong so much of the time. I love what this psychologist, on a podcast that I had, her on last year, and I repeat this so often. She was this just very wise older woman and and she said, they’ve done studies on this.

[00:22:56] The best parents get it right only 30% of the time. So she said, so what does that mean? It means 70% of the time you’re completely fucking it up. but when you learn how to repair. Like the, beauty really lies in the repair After we’ve had the, when things have gone sideways and then we come back and then we, you know, are able to have these vulnerable repairing conversations, it’s not the 30% of the time that you’re just nailing it.

[00:23:32] so she was like, so everybody can just like, take a breath and stop with the perfectionism. she had different language for it, but that’s how I interpreted it. And I think it has been so freeing for so many parents to hear that like the perfectionism is not helpful and, we don’t have to keep measuring ourselves according to that standard.

[00:23:57] But what I was gonna say is, I think in a relationship where, you know, like we can joke and say, are you. Refolding all the underwear that I, you know, and he was like, well, I, I, like it. And the truth is, that our cleaning woman, he’s like, but Wendy folds it, and he’s like, thirds. And I’ve, I, looked and I really like how she folds it, so I just learned how to fold it like that too.

[00:24:21] Like basically he’s saying, you don’t fold it as good as Wendy. And I’m like, that’s fair. I, okay, great. And I’m not a great folder. but, you know, that’s a relationship where I’m, working on my self-awareness. I understand who I’m married to. We’ve also been married for almost 30 years, so like, we really know each other, right.

[00:24:45] But when you’re at the younger stages of your relationship, you’re getting to know each other and, and so, you know, you want, you know, like, oh, I have a sensitive partner. I don’t want, you know, I don’t wanna hurt their feelings, maybe, or, and so I think that, you know, that’s where. Productive conversations can be helpful when you start to train yourself.

[00:25:09] Okay, this, I noticed this morning, it was meltdown after meltdown Or almost meltdowns. And I know a better way of doing this, but I don’t wanna offend her. How do I bring this up to her so that I can be a part of the morning so that we can sort of do some of the things that I learned without offending her?

[00:25:30] And so there is some strategy, it’s just like, it’s like a, you know, it’s a little bit of a negotiation. So there is some strategy involved once you are sort of past that point. Then I think it’s much simpler to be like, oh my God, I’m so proud of myself. I did amazing those two weeks with the kids. You, would’ve been so proud.

[00:25:51] You should have had hidden cameras. I was nailing it. They were happy. They were skipping off to school. Like it was, they were eating things that I was putting in front of ’em that they’ve never eaten before. And at that point it’s like, you know, I mean, because if I think back to myself, I’m like, if I got back in town, and he, and heard how much Scott had been nailing it, like nothing would make me happier.

[00:26:19] I’d be like, this is amazing news. Right. So I do think that comes, but I think when your intuition is telling you that chances are she’s gonna say, really? We’ll go, yeah. Two weeks. That, Lucky. Why don’t you try hundreds of weeks? You know? And let’s see.

[00:26:40] Jeff Hittner: I mean, I a hundred percent agree with you. The, the challenge is you’re talking about, deeply, emotionally intelligent conversations where both partners have been trained, to some extent to understand like how to not just read one another, but to approach. Like, a conversation that involves, you know, potentially hurting someone if it’s not presented the right way with all the care in the world.

[00:27:14] And again, like, and I, and the method that you talk about is spot on. I just don’t always know that, the situation presents itself well enough or that the father knows how to do it or that the mother knows how to do it necessarily. And, and then there’s so many other things, working against us.

[00:27:35] So when you were saying that thing about, you know, we only get it right a third of the time, or even less 30% of the time. I was thinking to, one of the assumptions that holds so many dads back is this idea like that fatherhood is supposed to just happen naturally. Right? And I’m, I know a lot of mothers feel this way too.

[00:27:54] It’s like this slap in the face where like, oh my god, no. Being a good mother is all about like learning and growing and training. For dads. The, the timeline to recognizing that, to, to not feeling shame about that, and then to actively go work and become a better dad, I feel is a bit of a longer timeline, unfortunately, than it is for moms, for a lot of logical reasons, not the least of which is what you just mentioned, is that the, the mom is, is like, like owning more of the parenting early on.

[00:28:30] And so as a result, we’ve got so many different insecurities running through us on both sides and, and so I want to be able to get through all of those to have this beautiful, productive conversation. and the question is, is that something that, you know. Can we do that simply by explaining to everyone listening, like, here’s the best approach.

[00:28:57] Or is it, is there like a, is there like a, a quicker hack that we can do in the short term, which is really just like to, to an empathy hack where we really try to, get each parent to, to, to verbalize what we think the other parent is experiencing in that moment. And then have a conversation just simply about that.

[00:29:20] Like, Hey, I saw you just got back. I’m imagining you might be feeling these three things. Can you tell me if they’re right? And they can say the same thing. Hey, I, I see how our son is like connecting with you since I’ve been gone. I imagine you feeling these three things. Is that right? And then that makes the next conversation even easier.

[00:29:39] ’cause I love the more in depth techniques. I’m just concerned that like a lot of the dads that, are listening are, not gonna dive into them so quickly without a bit more

[00:29:55] Randi Rubenstein: Yeah, that’s, you know, I will say that I mostly coach moms and a sup, a few super cool dads. but the interesting thing has been, I have found the coaching of dads to be a little bit simpler. 

[00:30:17] Jeff Hittner: Tell me what that means.

[00:30:20] Randi Rubenstein: like it’s almost like, and I know this is, again, stereotyping. It’s like, I think men are so solution oriented, that it’s like so often. When, and I’ve had some real, a lot of questioner dads, I give this assessment, and it sort of identifies, you know, when you’re, when you’re faced with a challenge, how do you typically go about solving that challenge?

[00:30:55] Like, what is your tendency? And it’s, this was, based on Gretchen Rubin’s work, the Four Tendencies. So questioners, are skeptics. And I’ve had a lot of questioner dads that come in and they’re just like, you know, it’s like. Yeah, convince me of it. Like, you know, and they, and, a lot of really smart dads, I’ve had for whatever reason, a lot of doctors and lawyers and, and while I mostly coach the moms, the dads will pop in when, you know, the mom is first learning some new tools and she’s growing, or sea legs and, you know, a lot of the time it’s not going well.

[00:31:34] So he comes in and he is like, what is this new approach? This is bullshit. And and so I’ll say like, you know, tell me, like, give it to me. I wanna hear all, the things. And so we’ll kind of go and I’ll explain. Like the behind the scenes, the science behind it, the communication tools. and when I make a compelling argument, they’re like, got it.

[00:31:58] That makes sense. And it’s un been unbelievable to me. I mean, I’m thinking about this one dad in particular, who now is my friend, years later, he was such a pain in the ass at the beginning. He was like, I, don’t understand. I grew up and this is how it was and they can’t get away with, and this is ridiculous.

[00:32:19] And we just, you know, I was just like, great questions. This is what we know. Here’s the science behind it. This is what I’ve seen. Here’s an example. And once he got it, he has changed the way he practices medicine. He, I mean, it’s been like, I am constantly saying to him, it is unbelievable to me how strong of a pack leader you are.

[00:32:43] Not even just in your family, but also all these people that you take care of on a regular basis that come into your practice. It’s amazing to me. And so I have seen dads be so coachable that, you know, especially ambitious, smart, really with it guy, it’s like, oh, that actually makes sense. So if you think about the, productive conversation and what I just offered, you have the conversation out of the moment

[00:33:16] Jeff Hittner: Yeah.

[00:33:17] Randi Rubenstein: You’ve strategized a little bit and you start to think, okay, what do I wanna accomplish?

[00:33:25] Well, I wanna accomplish. More, you know, smoother mornings, just like we had when I, when she was outta town. And I don’t wanna hurt her feelings or make her feel like I’m stepping on her toes. How do I approach this? And so if you think of it like a business negotiation, my productive conversation method, which that very first part, which is seeing the other person’s perspective first and foremost, and communicating it, it’s the exact same thing from the book.

[00:33:56] Never split the difference, 

[00:33:58] Jeff Hittner: Hmm. 

[00:33:59] Randi Rubenstein: that a lot of people are familiar with that business negotiating negotiation book by Chris Voss. In fact, years ago I was. Somebody kind of accused me of plagiarizing him. I hadn’t even read his book yet, but then I had to go and read it. And it is, I mean, it’s like, okay, I wasn’t the first person to come up with this.

[00:34:19] Lots of people have come up with this because when you see the other person’s perspective and you know what it is you wanna accomplish, the other person is not expecting for you to see their perspective. They, it, actually is a pattern disruption. It sort of throws them for a loop when somebody comes and they’re like, you know, I was thinking about it and you know, you’ve been carrying all these mornings and I’ve just been unaware of all the like.

[00:34:54] Your wife is not expecting you to come at her with that. Nobody is ever expecting you to just come at a conversation. So when we start to practice this, and especially if you have little kids with each other, with our partners, and we are working on our marriage in that way, let me tell you, this is your training ground for how you will speak to your kids, especially when they become teenagers.

[00:35:19] And it is a ninja skill. And not only will you use this with your family. You’ll use this in your business relationships. I mean, it is a negotiation tactic. You know, I think Chris Fo kind of teaches it a little bit in a manipulative way. So I’m, like, and, for me, it’s not manipulative. It’s, we wanna have healthy, beautiful relationships with the people we love the most in the world.

[00:35:45] So why wouldn’t we learn the most effective communication tools and work like hell to ingrain them in our minds

[00:35:53] Jeff Hittner: Yeah. You know, So I totally agree. And I’m just thinking about first when you were talking about like the, the dads are the skeptic. I was a hundred percent nodding my head. Like, I would come in totally skeptical. You would explain it to me, and then after I got it, I would definitely be the same. And I’m, I’m not sure I’m

[00:36:16] Randi Rubenstein: doing, you would just do it right? You would be like, that makes sense. I’m doing that.

[00:36:20] Jeff Hittner: Yeah. But I need to be, you know, but I, I don’t necessarily think that’s just a masculine thing. I mean, I coach leaders and I, I am thinking of like these cohorts of leaders that I have, and it’s always different each year. There’s one or two out of, say, 20 that are extremely difficult and it’s, it’s never just the men or just the women.

[00:36:43] It’s always a mix. And there’s just something about like. their, their, skep, not just their skepticism is high, but their defensiveness is high, right? They’re like, I’m not gonna learn some new shits unless I know that this is worth my time. And it takes a little effort and you get through to them, and then when the wall comes down though, it comes down doubly fast.

[00:37:10] Right? And they’re the people that end up being like the ones absorbing more of your, your teaching more than anyone else. I’m also thinking when you’re explaining that, that, you know, the conversations at least that I’m having with dads because, you know, there’s often friction with the, their partners, doing more of the work.

[00:37:33] Like they tend to know what they need to say to initiate it, but I see less evidence in. Anecdotal conversations that the moms are doing the same back. And part of that is ’cause I don’t think they actually know what’s going on in us as the dads. Right? Like, again, going back to this example of the father, having a wonderful experience taking care of their child for the two weeks, right?

[00:38:02] There’s so much different stuff going on for the dad, right? He’s like, experiencing this like self-confidence boost that like, he was probably either, Like might have felt shame beforehand or at the very least unspoken like, concern about how he would or does perform as a father. Like you don’t necessarily know.

[00:38:29] Too many women don’t know how much shame dads are carrying around, like their lack of confidence in fatherhood. the questions that we have that we don’t actually go to talk to anyone about in relation to like what worries us as dads, which are, are often very different worries than, than moms have. and so I think, you know, there’s, a lot to be learned and this is why you and I are having this conversation on, on both ends, like what’s going through, our minds and it also, remind me of just this experience I had with my son and we were talking about this topic a little bit earlier, which is, you know, our kids don’t inherit our words, they inherit our actions.

[00:39:13] And my, my five-year-old. A couple weeks ago, like just plain old clocked his 8-year-old brother in the face. And I watched it and I like, was like, I can’t believe you just hit your brother in the face. And he proceeded to just deny it, like flat out, deny it for like five minutes. No, he had a mini temper tantrum.

[00:39:37] He was just denying it. And I’m sitting there, I mean, I witnessed it and I was thinking to myself, you know, like, obviously if I raise my voice, nothing is going to come of this. So the best way I thought of engaging in this experience with him was to be like, okay, I’m just gonna be totally calm and I’m just gonna, I’m not gonna give into his temper tantrum, but I’m gonna say, look, I, I did see you do it.

[00:40:01] And then he kept crying and he kept crying. And then eventually, you know, when he was done with that, then we could have the conversation about it. But what I realized, what he was gonna be learning from that was how I responded with my body, right? And, and, not just my words where I wasn’t getting visibly upset, I wasn’t screaming, I was just being calm because that’s what I wanted

[00:40:26] Randi Rubenstein: But what were you thinking? What were you

[00:40:29] Jeff Hittner: I want to kill him, is what I was thinking. Of course, I was thinking that. But then I was thinking, and this, I think this goes to where I was trying to go with this, is, he gave such wonderful signals. The signals that it didn’t matter what I said or did nothing was gonna get through to him. And those signals were the denying what I watched in front of him.

[00:40:54] Those signals were the temper tantrum. Every time, even in a kind voice, I said, I saw you hit your brother, right? So when I took in that information. It was obvious that there was no learning that was gonna take place. And so I thought to myself, what do I want to teach here? So, but first, actually, to be honest, I thought to myself, how am I gonna get over being so pissed?

[00:41:16] And so I spent like 90 seconds, just basically ignoring him and hugging his brother. and I, you know, I talked to, a child psychologist. I interviewed him on my podcast the other day, and I was like, am I doing the right thing? Like when I am ready to lose it, like instead of losing it, I just sort of like, walk away from my kids, like kind of get out of the space for 90 seconds, and I’m like, I’m wondering what they’re thinking.

[00:41:44] Like, is this a horrible thing? And he’s like, instead of wondering what they’re thinking when you’re doing that. Think to yourself what you’re avoiding by doing that. Like you’re avoiding, like screaming, you’re avoiding all this, like lack of connection, all this stuff. They’re just maybe gonna be a little confused for a couple minutes, but at the end you’re gonna turn that into great connection.

[00:42:07] And so like that really stuck with me. but, but the reason I I talk about this is, is again, like, trying to suss out like, how do I educate my child without words? Like how do I do it through my actions, right? How do I show him what I want to. What I want him to experience, going forward without like losing it myself.

[00:42:39] And I am going through all these thoughts whenever I’m engaging with my kids. And I know a lot of dads are, but the challenges, just like with moms, that we have like these amygdala reactions, right? and, and then the same is gonna be true when it’s a husband and a wife talking about their experiences over the same like, parenting situations.

[00:43:12] And hopefully we learn over time how to deal with our partners on it, and get a little better on it. But what I’ve experienced so far is like, while the moms have incredible empathy, they’re not necessarily imagining as much going on inside our heads. I think I’ve seen in all the dads that I’ve talked to, and I just want to express that like, because, because we are sophisticated, we aren’t simple, which was actually the word you used, which is not offensive at all.

[00:43:47] But it’s just like, especially if we’re, you know, leaders in the work we do, we, we have a level of sophistication in how we empathize and engage at work at home. That doesn’t always happen because, there’s emotion involved. but I want everyone to know, like these dads are processing a lot of ideas about how to improve, even when they fail, just like moms are,

[00:44:17] Randi Rubenstein: No, I agree. I, don’t think any human being is simple. I think coaching dads is simpler. I think coaching dads, I, just think that, look, I think it is, it’s hard to be female and to grow up female. And especially now what I see with women. All of a sudden they’re in this really important leadership position, but most women have been conditioned their whole lives to, not think like leaders, to not communicate like leaders, to not have a tone that is assertive.

[00:44:52] Like a leader tends to have to say things in a sing songy voice and to say, okay, on the end of something that is actually not a request. And and so a lot of what I’m doing with women is. Helping them to see where that faulty conditioning exists. And what I found is that, you know, with men, there’s a lot of other faulty conditioning, like, you know, like around vulnerability and intimacy and and things that every human being deserves and needs.

[00:45:28] but the simpler part is when dads are stepping into that leadership position. Well, you were taught to be assertive. Even, you know, and like, so going from aggressive to assertive, ’cause a lot of men, it was like, no man up. Be aggressive. So going from aggressive to assertive, which to me is the goal of pack leadership.

[00:45:51] It’s firm and loving. And a lot of times we need to say things in an assert, not in an aggressive tone. We don’t need to be assholes, but assertive, like people know we mean business. And, and it’s a, heavier lift for women, for the typical female, to go from that sort of passive camp counselor. Mommy wants to be really nice, wants to be the sweet one too. Assertive versus, the male conditioning, right?

[00:46:22] Jeff Hittner: And, and I think what our challenge is, is what the kids need most is where women have been better conditioned than us, which is we don’t try to solution everything, right. That we just listen. Right. And, we fail at that horribly, particularly

[00:46:38] Randi Rubenstein: too. We please trust me as a fixer who quite a fixer in recovery, who quite often relapses. it’s just when the stakes are so high, when you care so much, you know, it’s hard not to go into solutions. but what I also noticed about your story is that’s why I asked, well, what were you thinking?

[00:47:01] What were you thinking? and the part that, there was a couple of parts that I wanna, circle back to the part that you asked the psychologist. I is it okay that IIII disengage basically for 90 seconds, right? And so, you know, that’s what the science tells us. It takes 90 seconds for an emotion to move through your body.

[00:47:25] Most of us don’t know how to do that. and it’s, miraculous when you. Not only start doing it, but also when you see your kids do it. I, you know, I have a couple of stories, especially with my youngest child and I was just, he’s almost 20 and I was just telling him the other day that I, was, you know, ’cause my kids don’t hear my stories that I used to teach with.

[00:47:52] I mean, if they wanted to, they could, and sometimes they do. But I said no. He, we were talking about something and I, he was, talking about something that he was feeling and I said, you know, this is, it’s what you are willing to feel. That is a skill that a lot of people don’t have. And he was like, what do you mean?

[00:48:14] And I said, you know, I, talk about this, how I had heard for years that it takes 90 seconds, but for an emotion to move through you. But I witnessed it with you. And I ne I’ll never forget. He was like, when I was like a couple of times and I said. The first time I was really aware of it was when, remember when I told you couldn’t take your phone on the bus when you were going to camp, and you were like, everyone else is gonna have their phone.

[00:48:39] And he was about 13. which nowadays kids don’t even have, a lot of kids aren’t even having phones at 13. But back then it seemed like everyone did. And I said, no, we’re gonna be month for a whole month phone free. So, you know, make sure you have your, you know, a book and whatever. He’s like, what am I gonna do?

[00:48:56] And he was freaking out and I said, I remember I stayed in your room. I watched you go lay on your bed. I watched your eyes and now I’ve done enough therapy that I know that there’s a lot in the eyes. I watched his eyes look up to the corner of the room, I saw his chest go up and down, and I’m telling you it was 90 seconds.

[00:49:18] And I went and sat on his bed and I said, tell me. And he said, it’s fine. I said, you can be mad at me. I understand. Like it’s hard to be the only one. It’s totally legit. If you’re mad at me, you can tell me. He’s like, it’s fine, I’ll just take a book. And it had moved through him. And I said, and what that looked like was a year and a half later, our family dog that they had grown up with died in this whole tragic way she drowned.

[00:49:47] And she was old, but she drowned. And and we were all so sad that night and my husband was really worried that one of the kids were, was gonna blame themselves because, you know, she got left outside and she fell in the pool and, she had a seizure or something. She was like, she was almost 15. And, and he, so he was trying to offset anybody, blaming themselves.

[00:50:11] And so he was like, oh, I’m the one who let her out. I came home from work, I put her out there. It wasn’t even true, but he was like really worried. And Corey looked at him and he. Dad, our dog died, our family member died. Can’t we just all be sad? Why do we need to blame anyone?

[00:50:31] Jeff Hittner: Wow.

[00:50:32] Randi Rubenstein: And he was like, really? I said that? And I said, yeah, you said it because it’s like, I’m not you. You were like, I’m not scared of sadness. We should feel sad right now. Can’t we just be sad? We don’t have to, you know, skirt over the sadness and go to blame.

[00:50:49] Jeff Hittner: Yeah.

[00:50:50] Randi Rubenstein: Right. Which, yeah. Which is so beautiful. So I would say when you are a modeling, when you’re about to lose it, any, for any of the down, not even talking about you, but when any of the anybody’s about to lose it and you have the impulse control to disengage and walk away.

[00:51:09] And like a lot of times it’s change your environment, change your state. You might walk outside, you might put your head between your legs. You might do what I call the sniff slow breath, which supposedly goes straight to the vagus nerve where you sniff in and then you sniff in a little bit more at the top and you hold it and then you slow exhale.

[00:51:35] You might do that. You might go over, wash your hands and just notice your palms as you feel the soapy warm water. Okay, so those are all just mindfulness practices that calm and regulate your nervous system, and then you go back over to your kids. What you just modeled was impulse control, self-regulation, boundaries.

[00:52:01] I am going to go and take care of myself and calm my own body down. I’m not gonna explain it. I’m not gonna ask for permission from anyone. I’m just gonna go and do what needs to be done. And then you come back to the, your kids. And if they’re like, what? Why did you leave so quickly? Dad? We were in the middle of a conversation.

[00:52:21] I, I was starting to get heated. I needed to go and just like, I didn’t wanna say something or come across scary, so I just needed to go and just calm my body down for a minute. Tell me what did you wanna tell me, bud?

[00:52:33] Jeff Hittner: No, that was exactly that, that last part, right? Where, to go back in and explain exactly what you did is huge, because that’s modeling, right? And and that’s the piece that is so much more powerful than the words is, is, know they see what you’re doing, but they don’t necessarily understand it. So then you explain it a bit more.

[00:52:55] and that happened a second time. ’cause this past weekend also, we were on a bike ride and I, I, you know, I’m in front of my kids and I turn around and I see one swerving into the other, like, and I immediately stopped and I said, you know, absolutely not that this is a safety issue. You are not allowed to hit each other on the bikes.

[00:53:15] They then start to say. You told us to tell you if you’re raising your voice at us and you’re raising your voice at us. And I was like, yes, because I need to be stern. This was about being safe. And then they kept going and so I was getting frustrated. And so I, ’cause they were, you know, smarter than they needed to be.

[00:53:38] Right. ’cause I have also asked my boys, by the way I say Daddy is working on, his own like emotional self-regulation and his own temper. So I want you to help me if I don’t notice that like my tone is changing, I want you to tell me. And that’s been helpful until it’s not. but I still encourage like everyone to do it.

[00:54:00] But like the not is when it is required that I raise my voice. They would still tell me not to raise my voice and then I have to explain why. And then they still push back and it creates more frustration. And, and that’s in this scenario where I got off my bike, I went and sat down on a bench. I waited about 90 seconds.

[00:54:18] They tried to talk to me and I just ignored them. And when I came back to them, I told them what I did and they didn’t really say anything. But, we’ll see how it like models itself in the future. but these things, these things have taken a lot of time to practice, right?

[00:54:36] Randi Rubenstein: It’s pr, it’s practice and, you know, look, I do think it’s like the story that you told about seeing the younger one clock, the older one.

[00:54:45] Jeff Hittner: yeah.

[00:54:46] Randi Rubenstein: This is where, I think it can be helpful sometimes just to like. Know, a thing that we didn’t know before. Like I wouldn’t have known this if I hadn’t learned it years ago, which is little kids create their own reality. So, so often parents

[00:55:06] Jeff Hittner: do adults.

[00:55:07] Randi Rubenstein: yeah, well we do, but parents think your kid is bold face lying. Like, how could that scenario, like I saw it with my own eyes, but in that moment, and I, remember when I was first learning and it was like a little 4-year-old with red Popsicle all over the face and they, the mom was trying to wipe it and she was like, you have red Popsicle all over your face.

[00:55:31] And he, and she’s like, the little kid’s like, no, I don’t, no, I don’t. She didn’t wanna stop in that moment. She didn’t wanna get her face wiped, she didn’t wanna feel probably the sensation of the cold washcloth, whatever it is. So. They create their own reality. It doesn’t mean that we’re not gonna be able to circle back and have the conversation, right.

[00:55:51] But in that moment, he was totally dysregulated. Something was not okay with him. He needed to know, he needed his brother to know how he was feeling on the inside. And he didn’t have the words to express it in that moment. And so as five-year-olds sometimes do, he took matters into his own hands and his body took over and he, hits his brother.

[00:56:15] Right? And, so he still dysregulated in that moment. You’re like, I saw it. I saw it. But he goes into this trance of I didn’t do it. No, I didn’t. Right? And, then a lot of times they’ll double down and it’s because they’re dysregulated. We’re dysregulated. Nothing’s getting accomplished. The bottom line is that he’s really not boldface lying like an adult would be because we just have a different cognitive abil ability, right?

[00:56:50] That five-year-old in that moment, they literally are like, no, I didn’t. No I didn’t. And they’re believing. No, I didn’t. No, I didn’t. And so it’s just gonna go in circles until, and so, the other thing I wanted to say is, well, as far as that, knowing that little kids create their own reality and we will circle back to it and we will talk about what was going on underneath, behind the hit.

[00:57:18] And we will discuss that and how this family has to be a safe zone for everyone. That’s a non-negotiable. This is, there’s no violence, period, end of story. So we will get our chance to, double down on that. But in the meantime, I think, you know. Explaining, you know, going to your other son and hugging him. I just wanted to kind of pinpoint that.

[00:57:45] Jeff Hittner: yeah.

[00:57:46] Randi Rubenstein: So that is what I teach as step one in my sibling fighting tool.

[00:57:54] Jeff Hittner: Can

[00:57:55] Randi Rubenstein: So what you did intuitively, so I just wanna kind of pause for applause for you on that. you did intuitively was you went to the injured party, you put your bandwidth in, your energy on the child that was actually hurt most of the time. We put our bandwidth and our energy on the aggressor. On the hurter instead of the one who was injured. And so when we put our energy on the aggressor, what we focus on grows, we get more of the hurting behavior. When we put our bandwidth on the injured party and on the healing, the hugging, the healing, we get more of that. So you, handled that situation beautifully by going and hugging your child who had just gotten hit.

[00:58:52] Jeff Hittner: I mean, it’s interesting. Thank you. And I, I love that feedback because, part of it was a little bit of self-preservation. Like,

[00:58:59] Randi Rubenstein: Yeah.

[00:59:00] Jeff Hittner: it was way to avoid, it was the way to avoid getting angry at, at, at my mini Mike Tyson. And, the other thing that I was thinking about while you were saying that is when I, so when I teach how to give feedback to leaders all the time.

[00:59:16] One of the first things I teach is you have to ask the person, is now a good time to give you some feedback as the first thing you do? And without a doubt, everyone tries to push back on that. They’re like, wait a minute, wait a minute. Like. What if they say no or wait a minute, like it’s important that I give them this feedback and, and I always have to bring it back to kids as the example.

[00:59:41] I was like, you know, those times when you, you’re trying to deal with a, a toddler having a temper tantrum, like it doesn’t matter what you say, they’re not gonna hear you. Like, it’s still true about adults who are not having a temper tantrum. But if you give feedback in a surprise way, it’s gonna go right to their amygdala and it is not going to be absorbed in the way that you want it to be absorbed.

[01:00:06] And then they’ll, you know, then they’ll say, well. What if they say no? What am I supposed to do? Well, then you ask for when is a good time to give you some feedback? And just by doing that, when you have the conversation, it’ll actually be one where they are able to hear it with their prefrontal cortex.

[01:00:24] And, it is just amazing. Like we have to teach this at all ages to, to adults as leaders and to ourselves as parents with our kids. But it is such an important lesson to learn. and I, I think I wrote about it in another article. My, my, that same son for like three weeks started putting his hands over his ears when I was trying to tell him something, something important.

[01:00:50] And I was like, oh my God, what is this? I’m gonna have to like do some research and figure out what the hell this is. And I, was actually, coaching another adult when it hit me. I was like, oh my God, no. He’s telling me, he’s giving me the perfect signal that no adults or older kids give me, which is, I’m not gonna listen to anything you’re saying right now. And that was a blessing, not like a challenge. And

[01:01:18] Randi Rubenstein: not open for feedback.

[01:01:19] Jeff Hittner: yeah, I’m not open for people and unfortunately, to be honest, it is unfortunate he stopped doing that. So now I have to look at, you know, more subtle signals when he’s not open for feedback. But we all have our tells, and it’s just so important that we figure these out. Yeah.

[01:01:35] Randi Rubenstein: Well, and I think, look, if we look, if we, tie back the productive conversation with the spouse, right? And the productive conversation with your son who clocked his brother and, that important skill of sort of reading the room and timing and are you open for feedback? I don’t think anyone is truly able to see someone else’s perspective unless they feel that their perspective has been seen first.

[01:02:16] Jeff Hittner: Totally.

[01:02:17] Randi Rubenstein: So I don’t think that the dad can approach a conversation with the mom in that sort of strategic, you know, really productive way. Unless he feels, and it might just be him celebrating himself. I, you know, I like, I’m kind of a rockstar. The two she was, she got to go on the trip. She didn’t have to worry about a thing.

[01:02:44] I was a really good dad these two weeks. I rocked it, you know, and like, I haven’t always been the most hands-on dad maybe. But for these two weeks. I stepped up and I am that kind of person. Maybe I don’t always show up consistently in things that I do, but I am the kind of friend who always comes through, you know, like, like, like take.

[01:03:06] And I think it’s a hard thing to do when, you know, when maybe there is some low self-confidence or secretly some low self-worth, but like taking the time and practicing the skill of really acknowledging this is what I feel proud of. You know, like I got a text from my, again, almost 20-year-old son, he did this thing last night and he had to speak in front of 300 girls.

[01:03:30] And his final text was, I feel really proud of myself. And and I said, as you should. As you should. You did a really brave and awesome thing. Public speaking is he said it was really nerve wracking. It was scary. It was the, and he got up in front of 300, you know, college women and did a little three minute thing and and he felt really proud of himself.

[01:03:55] So what I wanna say to all the dads that are listening is, it might sound super corny and you don’t have to tell anyone else that you’re doing it, but please take time to celebrate the things that you’re doing with your kids that you actually feel really proud of and good about. Because by doing that and practicing that skill, you are gonna be much better at being able to approach conversations productively and see other people’s perspectives.

[01:04:26] And it’s the same thing with our kids. You know, the kid who clocked the his brother. And when you circle back. You are gonna see his perspective by applying positive intent. You’re gonna say something that’s, you know, it’s not like you, you’re a sweet and loving boy, and I know there must have been something else going on that I didn’t see.

[01:04:48] So it’s basically sending him the message. Yeah, it was a screw up, but you’re not a screw up. So when you approach the conversation like it’s, I’m on your team, I’m not gonna excuse your behavior, but I see you beyond this behavior and it’s, gonna be a productive conversation when you start to approach it like that.

[01:05:08] Jeff Hittner: I love that advice. I mean that’s the type of advice I use, in coaching and, I really didn’t think about how vital it would be for a dad, to also do that just directly to themselves because we don’t celebrate our wins. We don’t celebrate our wins as leaders at work and we don’t celebrate them at home.

[01:05:27] We move on to the next challenge too quickly. And so yeah, sometimes it’s just giving yourself the credit and that opens your up to more connection and empathy for the conversation that you need to have with your spouse.

[01:05:40] Randi Rubenstein: I love it.

[01:05:41] Jeff Hittner: sense. Yeah.

[01:05:42] Randi Rubenstein: I love it. Well, okay, I mean, obviously this is why we’re gonna have an ongoing series because we could have these conversations on and on. And it’s late at night for you in Spain, so I won’t keep you any longer. I’ve loved this conversation. Thank you for being here.

[01:06:00] Jeff Hittner: Oh, thank you so much for engaging. It was awesome.

[01:06:03] Randi Rubenstein: Thanks for listening today, guys. I hope you picked up some tips, tools, maybe some baby steps for creating more balance and boundaries in your life. And I just wanted to let you know, if you want to continue moving the needle forward in creating this for yourself, having a happier household, I want you to go to my website and check out mastermindparenting.com. We have three beginning programs, and if you need some accountability and more support then please look for the one that would be a good fit for you.

[01:06:37] And, as always, we’re on all the social channels under Mastermind Parenting, on Instagram it’s mastermind_parenting. And, you know, periodically I do pop up on different Instagram lives, Facebook lives where I give you teaching and coaching and I love engaging with you live to help you help your strong-willed kids so that they can feel better, because when they feel better they do better, and I love, love, love getting to know you guys. 

[01:07:10] So thanks for listening. If you like this podcast, please don’t forget to subscribe, rate and review. Super, super appreciative.